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Archive 2016 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

marktomaras
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

Taken wild, if you had to choose just one lens best suited to full 15mm of shift in each direction for a high res stitch pano, with maximum overall image quality what would that be? The wider the better...

I believe that is what I am looking for to start with.

Thanks!

Nov 02, 2016 at 08:21 AM

marktomaras
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

Guys, please tell me what you make of this conversation I had with Mirex:

I asked:
My strategy has changed. I plan to use the Mirex EOS to Sony E Tilt Shift adapter by attaching it directly to my Sony A7rII, and then I will attach various medium format lenses of different manufacturer and different format simply by adapting the lens to EOS first. This way I can use any lens (Pentax 67, Hasselblad CF, etc) on my Mirex EOS to Sony Adapter and enjoy true rear standard style shifts.

They Replied:
This way is also a possibility.
Please take into account!
The following may occur.
Since the ts-adapter is further away from the medium format lens by the additional adapter for medium-format lenses / Canon EF in this way, the risk of vignetting is somewhat greater.

My question to you guys here is, what difference does it make if I use the adapted lens in the EOS-Sony Mirex compared to a native medium format lens for the specific Mirex adapter + novoflex adapter to connect the Mirex to sony?

Thanks,
Mark

Nov 02, 2016 at 08:24 AM

rdeloe
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

Mark, you're asking some great questions.

To find answers, I tested this on my setup. I have the EOS-NEX and the P645-EOS adapters. If you put the P645-EOS adapter at 0mm shift, it's functioning like a non-shifting adapter. I then shifted the EOS-NEX adapter using my SMC Pentax-A 75/2.8 lens at f/22 (which can shift up to 15mm with no major image quality issues). There's strong mechanical vignetting at 15mm at f/22, and none at 12mm. At f/11, it's reduced somewhat, but still present in ways that won't make you happy. (I'm testing at the smallest aperture because that's always the worst case scenario.)

I then put the EOS-NEX adapter at 0mm shift and shifted to 15mm at f/22 with the P645-EOS adapter. There's a bit of mechanical vignetting in the corners, so that would have to be cropped out, but it's certainly less than the other way. It's not visible to my eye at f/11 (a more reasonable scenario).

Also, it's important to remember that I'm using EOS as the common interface and it has the largest possible throat. If you use a different mount as the intermediate one, the problem is likely to be worse (e.g., M42 has a much narrower throat, so I would expect that with an M42-NEX Mirex adapter and a P645-M42 straight adapter you'd have even less shift to work with before it vignettes).

So, Mirex is correct in what they told you. This is disappointing because I had thought that your plan would work (using a EOS-NEX Mirex adapter and a straight P645-EOS adapter). Your plan definitely gives the most flexibility in terms of which medium format lenses you put on the camera, so it's still a good idea, but only if you can live with a maximum of 12m of shift.

A question I can't answer is whether or not this would all work better if you used P67 lenses, simply because the P67-EOS adapter would be larger. Let's say you had the Mirex EOS-NEX adapter, and then a P67 lens mounted to it with a basic P67-EOS dumb adapter. That might mean that there would be less adapter in the light path because the base of the P67 mount is so much wider, and thus the P67-EOS adapter would be more trapezoid than cylinder. This stands to reason, but I don't have the lenses or adapters to test it out.

Good luck on your quest. Rob

Nov 02, 2016 at 11:51 AM

marktomaras
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

Rob,

Seems I don't get to have my cake and eat it too. But maybe I am putting too much emphasis on rear standard shifting. As I used to have a tech cam, I am familiar with shifting the sensor, and keeping the lens circle fixed. Obviously stitching is a breeze. How different is the experience if one keeps the sensor fixed and shifts the image circle? Does Photoshop's auto alignment make easy work of this? Are there any pitfalls?

If not, I can ditch the rear standard shifting, go for a pentax 645 to EOS mirex adapter, pick up an eos to NEX novoflex adapter, and start with 645 lenses. If I want to use other lenses, the adapters from 67 say to 645 are very compact, and will likely not cause much vignetting trouble.

Thoughts?

Nov 02, 2016 at 12:43 PM

rdeloe
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

The beauty of rear standard shifting is you don't have to worry about parallax errors and whether or not your software can correct them. You're looking for a system specifically for panoramics so were I in your shoes, I think I would still lean towards shifting the sensor. However, take this with a grain of salt because I don't know if current software can deal with this.

Here's another interesting option: have you looked at the Pentax 67 45mm lens? It comes in two vintages, same optical design. The folks over at PentaxForum who have it love it, but say it's not as amazingly good as the latest generation Pentax 67 55m lens -- but it's still excellent they think. You get a slightly wider field of view in a very compact package (only 486 grams). It's also a lot cheaper on the 'Bay than the 55 latest version.

K&F Concepts now makes a P67 to P645 adapter that sells for $25 USD -- a fraction of the genuine Pentax, and much cheaper than the Fotodiox version. I've also seen inexpensive P67 to EOS adapters from many vendors, some of which have a strongly trapezoidal design (which is what I'd get if I went this route -- just in case it solves the problem the Mirex folks noted when you contacted them).

Nov 02, 2016 at 01:39 PM

marktomaras
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

So, if I want to do both horizontal stitched pano's and vertical high-res stitches, are you suggesting that sticking to 12mm of shift and stay rear standard is better than the extra 3mm of shift and dealing with a moving image circle?

I think I agree with that, though of course, I would prefer to be able to shift all the way!

Nov 02, 2016 at 04:46 PM

mdemeyer
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

Or get the Actus! ;-)

rdeloe wrote:
Mark, you're asking some great questions.

To find answers, I tested this on my setup. I have the EOS-NEX and the P645-EOS adapters. If you put the P645-EOS adapter at 0mm shift, it's functioning like a non-shifting adapter. I then shifted the EOS-NEX adapter using my SMC Pentax-A 75/2.8 lens at f/22 (which can shift up to 15mm with no major image quality issues). There's strong mechanical vignetting at 15mm at f/22, and none at 12mm. At f/11, it's reduced somewhat, but still present in ways that won't make you happy. (I'm testing at the smallest aperture because that's always the...Show more →

Nov 02, 2016 at 06:10 PM

marktomaras
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

Actus is great, but larger and more expensive than the Mirex. Though I guess is solves the vignetting issue!

Nov 02, 2016 at 06:37 PM

rdeloe
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

I pulled out a lens that has sat on the shelf since I picked up a few more SMC Pentax-A primes: my big SMC Pentax-A 45-85/4.5 zoom. I've mentioned previously that this is an excellent lens (just heavy).

Here's something interesting to throw into the mix: I just ran a set of test shots using this lens at max shift (15mm) -- all main apertures (4.5, 5.6, 8, 11, 16, 22, 32) and at 45mm, 55mm, 65mm, and 75mm. The test chart was a group of four ISO 12233 charts that I use to examine all my lenses. For each focal length I filled the frame with the chart, in portrait orientation.

I then compared the results at f/8 for all zoomed focal lengths tested to the SMC Pentax-A 75mm at f/8; the 75mm prime is the only one I tested that shifts all the way to 15mm and still looks good.

The SMC Pentax-A 45-85/4.5 is better than the 75mm prime at the 75mm position. There's less loss of sharpness. Comparing the 75mm prime to the zoom at 45mm, 55mm and 65mm, the zoom is sharper than the prime, but the zoom at 45mm, 55mm and 65mm shows a bit of purple fringing in the top 1/3rd of the image; that's the part that is closest to the outer edge of the image circle.

Within each focal length, f/4.5 and f/5.6 are not terrific (although f/5.6 on the zoom is still better than f/8 on my 35mm SMC Pentax-A). f/11 on the zoom is still excellent; while f/16 starts to show signs of diffraction, which sets in fairly strongly at f/22 and is bad at f/32.

The good news is that this lens is unloved and dirt cheap (as in under $300 USD at most sellers).

So Mark, to answer your last question, all I can say is that if you absolutely must have 15mm of shift, you can get it nicely with this lens at a range of useful focal lengths, but you need the P645-EOS adapter (which means parallax issues). Or you settle for 12mm using the EOS-NEX adapter and a dumb P645-EOS adapter (but you get really good quality for very little money).

Interestingly, I say "settle" but 12mm of shift is what the fantastic Canon TS-E II 24mm lens offers as its maximum -- so anything beyond 12mm sounds like a bonus to me.

And, you can always get the Actus...

Nov 02, 2016 at 06:50 PM

marktomaras
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

Boy oh boy, I looked at the actus again, what a camera! Imagine that with a 67 lens on it - shifting for days! Alas, hard to justify compared to Mirex. So small, light, and plenty of shift.

Rob, I think I am still leaning towards the EOS-NEX by Mirex. I did a little visualization to see what 12mm of shift will look like. Given that that 12mm will be on the rear standard with no paralax, and with a good lens choice, will give me 12mm of shift with impunity in the image quality department, this looks like the way to go.

link to my visualization: http://www.marktomaras.com/test

Nov 02, 2016 at 08:58 PM

TakenWild
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

That is a good question. But on what camera. On the A7R2 in my experience only the Pentax 75mm 2.8 stopped with the adapters all flocked.

I have an IR converted A7 and I'm fine 15mm of shift in the Pentax A 645 35mm. But 12mm is the limit on the A7R2

I have Pentax 67 55mm f4 and a 67 75mm f4.5. But I've found issues with them. Flaring seem to be a big problem even with a lot of flocking. The 55mm can be shifted to 20mm and keep good results on an A7R2, but at 10mm of shift in the right side mine seems very weak. I don't know if it is the an issue with using three adapter or it just the lens. Anyways I'll do further testing.

The Pentax 67 75mm is weaker than the 645 75mm, so I'll probably get rid of mine after some more testing.

People have said the Tamron 45mm 1.8 does very well shifted. And I wonder about the new Pentax HD 645 35mm 3.5. The Canon 16-35mm f4 IS shifts very will too. But I have not tested any of these.

marktomaras wrote:
Taken wild, if you had to choose just one lens best suited to full 15mm of shift in each direction for a high res stitch pano, with maximum overall image quality what would that be? The wider the better...

I believe that is what I am looking for to start with.

Thanks!

Nov 03, 2016 at 12:31 AM

marktomaras
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

Rob, that is remarkable about the The SMC Pentax-A 45-85/4.5! You say it tests better than the 75mm & 35mm 645 primes?! I didn't think such a thing was possible in that vintage.

I wonder if that is my lens choice for a starter lens on the mirex, sounds like it. But now there is the interesting option of the SMC Pentax 67 55-100mm F4.5, which is also highly regarded. Now that we're talking zooms (seriously, this is blowing my mind), if these lenses have similar performance overall, I wonder if the larger circle on the 67 zoom will make the shifted performance on A7R2 better. Then there is the possibility/hope that the 67 adapted to the EOS/Sony Mirex will go beyond the 12mm shift that you found was the limit in your test with an adapted lens on front of the Mirex (that the company warned me about).

Thanks guys, amazing info on this thread. If anyone has experience with the SMC Pentax 67 55-100mm F4.5, please report your opinions and experiences.

Mark

Nov 03, 2016 at 03:50 AM

marktomaras
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

Rob, could you share your full res tests on the zoom and primes that you just talked about?

Nov 03, 2016 at 06:17 AM

rdeloe
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

Mark, I've heard great things about that Pentax 67 zoom from people who used it on a Pentax 67 with film, but it's a monster. I have no knowledge of how it works with a high resolution digital sensor. Takenwild's comments about flaring and softness on some of the 67 lenses known to be excellent gives me pause. Also, I specifically asked Mirex about this lens and they said it should not be used with their adapter because it's too heavy. The lens weighs 1200 grams. They said the tilt mechanism can't carry that load. I can easily see this being a problem because it's just a friction hold.

A couple things regarding the EOS-NEX Mirex adapter:

(1) Takenwild mentioned flocking. This is actually very important and has to be done. I have yet to find any adapter that doesn't benefit from flocking. The source for the material is Edmund Scientific. They sell a paper flocking material with glue back that is used for telescopes. It's ideal. Look for #55, 20" x 30", 2 Sheets, Adhesive Flock Paper Stock No. 54-585. It's not expensive, but you get a lifetime supply!

(2) I mentioned offline that Mirex adapters have different designs for rotation. The P645-EOS adapter has a lever you have to engage, and then defined positions you rotate into; releasing the lever locks the position. The EOS-NEX adapter uses pressure. In between the pieces that rotate there are six holes. Each hole has a spring and a ball bearing the spring presses against the other surface. They supply them with light springs and ship a set of heavy springs. I recommend you ask them to ship it with the heavy springs installed. My A7r requires a dead weight mounted to the bottom, and in the portrait orientation, the heavy springs are just strong enough to prevent it from rotating freely. If you ever put a battery grip on your A7rII, you may encounter this problem too. It's not hard to change them out yourself but you might as well get them to do it for you.

Here is a link you can use to access test shots of the SMC Pentax-A 45-85/4.5 shifted up 15mm on the P645-EOS adapter. I adjusted white balance and exposure but that's it. Each file is labelled with the focal length. The lowest number in each set is f/4.5, and they go up to f/32. These were shot on an A7r in RAW and exported from Lightroom as high resolution JPEGs.
This link isn't permanent, but I will leave the files up as long as I have the space on my Drive share.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B7LdVznTJdvWT2VOdG15cDlaelk

Edited on Nov 04, 2016 at 09:32 AM · View previous versions

Nov 03, 2016 at 06:34 AM

marktomaras
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

Rob, that's a good shout on the 67 zoom being too heavy. I'll x that one off the list. The venerable 67 55 also seems problematic according to our Australian friend.

So now it looks like the contenders for me are the 45-85 zoom, and perhaps the 35 prime, or both.

Nov 03, 2016 at 07:38 AM

Bespoked
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

I'm using an A7RII with a Nikkor 3.5/35 with great results.

Cons
It doesn't tilt, but I've never found that an issue with architecture.
It shifts 'only' 11mm, again, never found it an issue.
It's soft-ish wde open (f3.5) and until about f5.6 by today's standards, again, not an issue as I shoot all TS/PC lenses at f8-11.

Pros
Cheap and appreciating in value.
Classic Nikkor mechanical bliss.
Much lighter and smaller than any of the new TS/PC lenses.
It's simple and quick to use.

Here's my latest commercial shoot:

https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/t31.0-8/14917212_1145063462249390_1414608738800312403_o.jpg

Nov 03, 2016 at 07:49 AM

TakenWild
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

Wow! Thanks! The 45-85mm looks very impressive. You may have cost me some money! Does the lens also hold up well at infinity?
I found the Pentax 645 55mm held up well against test charts shifted, but the shifted in distant landscapes it fell apart (my guess is it also had a lot of field curvature).

I had high hopes for Pentax 67 lenses, but they are not working out worth so far. I'm finding the P67 55mm SMC's plane of focus to be very wavy. Maybe I have a dud copy, I don't know.

rdeloe wrote:
Mark, I've heard great things about that Pentax 67 zoom from people who used it on a Pentax 67 with film, but it's a monster. I have no knowledge of how it works with a high resolution digital sensor. Takenwild's comments about flaring and softness on some of the 67 lenses known to be excellent gives me pause. Also, I specifically asked Mirex about this lens and they said it should not be used with their adapter because it's too heavy. The lens weighs 1200 grams. They said the tilt mechanism can't carry that load. I can easily see this...Show more →

Nov 03, 2016 at 09:02 AM

rdeloe
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

You actually saved me money TakenWild. I was very close to getting that 67 55mm lens, but now I think I'll just be happy with what I have. It's almost as heavy as the 45-85 so there seems little point to getting it given how excellent the 45-85 is at 55m.

I don't make a lot of images at infinity so I can't say off the top of my head how the 45-85 does. I've certainly not seen any issues where I have used it for landscape work (although my take on 'landscape' tends to be less "grand vistas" and more "what's at my feet"). The only flaw, such as it is, in this lens is that at 85mm it's softer than at 75mm and below. I shoot it at 85mm all the time anyway though and am happy, so it's not a huge difference for my needs.

I'll take some time in the next couple days to make some test shots at infinity and post them up. Stay tuned.

TakenWild wrote:
Wow! Thanks! The 45-85mm looks very impressive. You may have cost me some money! Does the lens also hold up well at infinity?
I found the Pentax 645 55mm held up well against test charts shifted, but the shifted in distant landscapes it fell apart (my guess is it also had a lot of field curvature).

I had high hopes for Pentax 67 lenses, but they are not working out worth so far. I'm finding the P67 55mm SMC's plane of focus to be very wavy. Maybe I have a dud copy, I don't know.

Nov 03, 2016 at 09:42 AM

marktomaras
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

Gents, I've taken the step forward and just ordered the eos-Nex mirex! I think I'll try and get my hand on the 45-85 zoom and the 35 prime for 645. After all this discussion, I don't think I can do better. Do you agree?

Nov 03, 2016 at 10:32 AM

rdeloe
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Architectural Tilt/Shift options for the A7?

I think that will give you a very flexible setup Mark. I hope it works out for you. If you need longer, I've been happy with my copy of the 150/3.5. Takenwild has expressed reservations, and it certainly doesn't want to be shifted much more than 10mm. Still, I use it a lot and am very happy with the results.

marktomaras wrote:
Gents, I've taken the step forward and just ordered the eos-Nex mirex! I think I'll try and get my hand on the 45-85 zoom and the 35 prime for 645. After all this discussion, I don't think I can do better. Do you agree?

Nov 03, 2016 at 11:14 AM

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