p.3 #1 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
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It's a very rare lens that needs to be stopped down into diffraction territory to perform best. Shooters who will be using cameras like this are landscape and fashion shooters, which are often at f/8-f/16 on FF for requried depth of field. Almost all lenses are already at or beyond peak sharpness at those apertures, and those shooting this camera would need f/10 - f/20 for the same depth of field, where they too will be at or beyond peak sharpness.
p.3 #2 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
Jman13 wrote:
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It's a very rare lens that needs to be stopped down into diffraction territory to perform best. Shooters who will be using cameras like this are landscape and fashion shooters, which are often at f/8-f/16 on FF for requried depth of field. Almost all lenses are already at or beyond peak sharpness at those apertures, and those shooting this camera would need f/10 - f/20 for the same depth of field, where they too will be at or beyond peak sharpness.
Hi Jordan,
At least for large format film lenses they needed to be stopped way down to reach their best performance. I am not sure if that was by design but...
p.3 #3 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
naturephoto1 wrote:
Hi Jordan,
At least for large format film lenses they needed to be stopped way down to reach their best performance. I am not sure if that was by design but...
Rich
How is this an advantage then? If the MF lenses need to be stopped down well beyond what a 35mm lens needs to be stopped down for peak sharpness, this would increase the chances of diffraction becoming an issue. Though I think if you're comparing to large format, it's still likely similar diffraction levels for peak areas. f/8 on 35mm would require f/30 on 4x5 LF or f/60 on 8x10.
p.3 #4 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
I wonder how many FF 35mm lenses can be adapted to this and cover the full sensor with reasonably decent results? I guess maybe some of the TS-E type lenses, but I've also heard the Canon 16-35/4L, once the rear plastic baffle is removed, has a fairly large image circle at some points in its zoom range. I was thinking of using it along with the H-Cam tilt/shift adapter thingy in place of updating some of the TS-Es...
I seem to recall a number of years ago someone adapted the FD 85/1.2L to Mamiya 645...? And I've heard of some Leica R lenses being adapted to their S system...
With a mirrorless medium format, you'd just need a 'simple' adapter to maintain infinity focus (since the camera and flange depth doesn't look super deep).
I wonder what the usable image circle size is of the Otus lenses? IIRC, from the H-Cam discussion on another forum, they might not cover a lot more than 35mm FF.
Trying to think a bit outside the box....
Otherwise, yeah.... it would probably be more exciting if the sensor was closer to 645 size, rather than jumbo-35mm.
p.3 #5 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
Jman13 wrote:
??
It's a very rare lens that needs to be stopped down into diffraction territory to perform best. Shooters who will be using cameras like this are landscape and fashion shooters, which are often at f/8-f/16 on FF for requried depth of field. Almost all lenses are already at or beyond peak sharpness at those apertures, and those shooting this camera would need f/10 - f/20 for the same depth of field, where they too will be at or beyond peak sharpness.
I'm not really sure what you're not getting, Jordan. It's not a camera for you (or me!). But are you really unable to see that for some people it will be worth it, and that it will offering imaging quality and characteristics that cannot be had in an A7rII or 5Dsr?
I mean, we're on the same page: "For me, the increase in image quality and other characteristics of this particular system are not enough to convince me to spend my money buying into the system."
But careful not to slip into the "if I don't value it nobody does" fallacy.
There are advantages to such a system (disadvantages too!). Such a system is much more expensive to produce and sell at a profit than a smaller format. Pricing isn't only about supply/demand, and not only about costs to produce.
It's exciting because it offers larger than 135 format, cheap, small, digital mirrorless.
p.3 #6 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
Jman13 wrote:
I'm not denying the images will be better...but it's a giant increase in cost, with a very limited set of circumstances where improvement is visible. I'm sure it'll be a great system for those who truly need every last drop of image quality, but diminishing returns is right.
Now this I agree with. I find 35mm the best compromise in terms of image quality, portability, lens choice, and cost, for my own needs of course.
p.3 #7 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
justruss wrote:
I'm not really sure what you're not getting, Jordan. It's not a camera for you (or me!). But are you really unable to see that for some people it will be worth it, and that it will offering imaging quality and characteristics that cannot be had in an A7rII or 5Dsr?
I mean, we're on the same page: "For me, the increase in image quality and other characteristics of this particular system are not enough to convince me to spend my money buying into the system."
But careful not to slip into the "if I don't value it nobody does" fallacy.
There are advantages to such a system (disadvantages too!). Such a system is much more expensive to produce and sell at a profit than a smaller format. Pricing isn't only about supply/demand, and not only about costs to produce.
It's exciting because it offers larger than 135 format, cheap, small, digital mirrorless. ...Show more →
I mean, I agree with you. I know this will be great for a certain niche of photographers. I just don't see it being something that is applicable for the vast majority of even serious shooters. I see a lot of people fawning over this (to be fair, more elsewhere than here) like it's the second coming and will blow any 35mm format out of the water, and it's really a rather incremental improvement in overall image quality, and there are plenty of drawbacks as well.
p.3 #8 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
Jman13 wrote:
I mean, I agree with you. I know this will be great for a certain niche of photographers. I just don't see it being something that is applicable for the vast majority of even serious shooters. I see a lot of people fawning over this (to be fair, more elsewhere than here) like it's the second coming and will blow any 35mm format out of the water, and it's really a rather incremental improvement in overall image quality, and there are plenty of drawbacks as well.
But that's almost a point without a point. You could say the exact same thing about APS-C vs FF... and guess what, that's a debate that has raged from film to digital. So this is a single interval bigger (yeah yeah, not the same gap in sensor size), but it's the same discussion.
That's what diminishing returns means, and it's usually assumed to diminish geometrically.
Tell me, where's the best spot on the curve?
M4/3
APS-C
FF
I can say where it is for me right now. I cannot say where it is for everyone else, nor can I predict where that spot will be in the future.
But OF COURSE when formats get bigger than mainstream, when prices go above enthusiast level (or "serious" whatever that really means)... your returns diminish greatly and you appeal to a smaller market.
I'll agree that this isn't the second coming of anything. But vague other people talking about the second coming in the third person... is a straw man.
I mean, it's a cool camera. What else is there to get?
p.3 #9 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
edwardkaraa wrote:
Now this I agree with. I find 35mm the best compromise in terms of image quality, portability, lens choice, and cost, for my own needs of course.
Hi Edward,
Don't forget that FF digital has and probably is now equalling medium format film camera output. So, in many ways that does and would make sense. Medium format film was often considered the sweet spot for many film shooters.
p.3 #10 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
naturephoto1 wrote:
Hi Edward,
Don't forget that FF digital has and probably is now equalling medium format film camera output. So, in many ways that does and would make sense. Medium format film was often considered the sweet spot for many film shooters.
Rich
Exactly! In film days I shot all my serious stuff on MF, but in digital FF is more than enough.
p.3 #11 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
Jman13 wrote:
I guess I don't really get it that much. The advantage of this over something like the A7R II is...what, exactly? Sure, you'll get a bit cleaner base ISO images...a bit wider dynamic range probably...and....that's it? The A7R II already gets you nearly the same resolution, the dynamic range is fantastic and low ISO noise is already very low. With the lenses as slow as they are, you don't gain anything at higher ISOs at all, and you don't gain any shallower depth of field. Heck, the Fuji X system with a 23mm f/1.4 and 56mm f/1.2 will show significantly shallower DOF than these lenses here.
So, $9K for slightly better ISO 100 image quality? What am I missing here? If this were a full 645 sized sensor, or even more exciting, a 6x7, I could understand the excitement, but is there even any guarantee that the slightly larger size will outperform Sony's awesome full frame sensor?
Others have noted the improved IQ. For pros a VERY important consideration is the leaf shutter lenses. No mention made here of that but as Hasselblad has a long history of leaf shutter glass I would guess they would continue with that. Flash sync up to 1/1600 is a wonderful thing.
I also like the silence of leaf shutters. One could actually make a case for this being a very good street photography camera.
p.3 #12 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
naturephoto1 wrote:
Hi Jordan,
At least for large format film lenses they needed to be stopped way down to reach their best performance. I am not sure if that was by design but...
Rich
Not the newer, designed for digital lenses. Rrodenstock's Digaron HR's are designed to hit their peak wide open or one stop down, and this camera looks like it's just begging to be used with those lenses on a tech cam like the Actus or the f-Universalis. If the camera has a focal plane shutter, I will be waiting patiently for decently priced used model.
p.3 #13 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
I'm going to add to Freds comments as they are spot on. But let's remember this is not coming to replace your Sony by any stretch. Take this same sensor now compare it to the same sensor as Phase, Leaf Credo backs it's a far cheaper package to go this route . Yes your also going Mirrorless in the Process. I think this sensor back is around 24 k plus let's add there new DSLR style body is 6k . I have not checked prices but I came from this camp of cameras. This is a far cheaper solution same sensor. Now it does compare price wise to the Pentax except once again it's Mirrorless . Now before anyone throws acid on top of this. The biggest issue MF has is big size and weight. This helps take this off the table as a issue. Diminishing returns may not be this product as it hits a niche market for folks that want MF and not spend 30k on it. ME
Lol and let's be clear and not even bring Sony 35 into the argument . This is MF it should stay in a MF conversation . Sure your 42mpx can is wonderful , cheaper and all that. I know I love mine but MF is a different ball park it's a mentality and a format that people feel they get the best out of. Cost be damn repeat that once more costs are meaningless . Trust me in the cost factor I came from this world people happily spend 50 k and some spend a lot more with a smile on there face. I know it's not the Sony crowds mentality. Not that I disagree with it but people buy Hassy and Medium format like buying Gucci shoes. Capice Fred Miranda wrote:
Cleaner base ISO, higher bit color depth and shallower DOF are the main advantages imo but lenses play a crucial role in the overall look and rendering of an image.
p.3 #14 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
Jman13 wrote:
I'm not denying the images will be better...but it's a giant increase in cost, with a very limited set of circumstances where improvement is visible. I'm sure it'll be a great system for those who truly need every last drop of image quality, but diminishing returns is right.
Considering that hobbyists are already shelling out a LOT of money for flagship Nikons and Canons that arguably don't have a huge IQ difference from the competition in their own lines, I think Hasselblad will be very successful with this camera.
p.3 #16 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
GMPhotography wrote:
I'm going to add to Freds comments as they are spot on. But let's remember this is not coming to replace your Sony by any stretch. Take this same sensor now compare it to the same sensor as Phase, Leaf Credo backs it's a far cheaper package to go this route . Yes your also going Mirrorless in the Process. I think this sensor back is around 24 k plus let's add there new DSLR style body is 6k . I have not checked prices but I came from this camp of cameras. This is a far cheaper solution same sensor. Now it does compare price wise to the Pentax except once again it's Mirrorless . Now before anyone throws acid on top of this. The biggest issue MF has is big size and weight. This helps take this off the table as a issue. Diminishing returns may not be this product as it hits a niche market for folks that want MF and not spend 30k on it. ME
Lol and let's be clear and not even bring Sony 35 into the argument . This is MF it should stay in a MF conversation . Sure your 42mpx can is wonderful , cheaper and all that. I know I love mine but MF is a different ball park it's a mentality and a format that people feel they get the best out of. Cost be damn repeat that once more costs are meaningless . Trust me in the cost factor I came from this world people happily spend 50 k and some spend a lot more with a smile on there face. I know it's not the Sony crowds mentality. Not that I disagree with it but people buy Hassy and Medium format like buying Gucci shoes. Capice
Let's not forget that this gets rid of any mirror-slap issues that force the use of MLU- which was a workable solution but not always pleasant or good for timing.
p.3 #18 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
GMPhotography wrote:
If anyone is not happy today with this news it's Leica
Indeed. I wonder if it will put downward pressure on some of their cameras (S and SL). I really like those cameras but they are WAY too expensive for me, even used.
p.3 #19 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
GMPhotography wrote:
I'm going to add to Freds comments as they are spot on. But let's remember this is not coming to replace your Sony by any stretch. Take this same sensor now compare it to the same sensor as Phase, Leaf Credo backs it's a far cheaper package to go this route . Yes your also going Mirrorless in the Process. I think this sensor back is around 24 k plus let's add there new DSLR style body is 6k . I have not checked prices but I came from this camp of cameras. This is a far cheaper solution same sensor. Now it does compare price wise to the Pentax except once again it's Mirrorless . Now before anyone throws acid on top of this. The biggest issue MF has is big size and weight. This helps take this off the table as a issue. Diminishing returns may not be this product as it hits a niche market for folks that want MF and not spend 30k on it. ME
Lol and let's be clear and not even bring Sony 35 into the argument . This is MF it should stay in a MF conversation . Sure your 42mpx can is wonderful , cheaper and all that. I know I love mine but MF is a different ball park it's a mentality and a format that people feel they get the best out of. Cost be damn repeat that once more costs are meaningless . Trust me in the cost factor I came from this world people happily spend 50 k and some spend a lot more with a smile on there face. I know it's not the Sony crowds mentality. Not that I disagree with it but people buy Hassy and Medium format like buying Gucci shoes. Capice...Show more →
The interesting thing will be to see where the corners have been cut to hit this price point relative to the MF back style systems.
I'm looking forward to seeing the full specs on Wednesday before deciding whether Leica, Pentax, and Phase have a lot to worry about.
Also wondering if Hassy will do tit-for-tat and release a Leica S lens adapter for this camera (since Leica released a Hassy lens adapter for the S)?
p.3 #20 · Official: Hasselblad X1D-50c Medium Format Mirrorless
This camera will not raise the dead nor cause the blind to see but I see it as a very remarkable intro for several reasons.
The first mirrorless MF camera: Finally a camera that reduces MF to its smallest possible size. While it was useful in 35FF the reduction in size is not as dramatic as in MF.
Low price: Yes I know Pentax has the 645z but this is Hasselblad for Heaven's sake! And the prices for the two lenses aren't bad considering that they are very low production leaf shutter (I presume) lenses.
Lenses: I am presuming these lenses are leaf shutter lenses. If so they will have full flash sync at all speeds with the additional bonus of being exceptionally quiet (like a Rolleiflex) as their is no mirror banging about.
The two lenses introduced are a medium wide angle and a short tele. Perfect for the vast amount of work a pro or amateur may want to do. Leica gave us a massive 24-90mm zoom but these lenses are nearly as fast, cover a larger sensor and are most likely razor sharp.
With adapters I am betting that one will be able to adapt Canon TS lenses and other lenses of interest.
So, small, lightweight and quiet. Sounds great to me.
