p.6 #1 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)
Iwas joeking wrote:
No idea, but if someone has a reason that explains the reason, I'd like to hear it. It's too bad, it would be a killer combo with the 400DO and 2x.
Pretty sure it has to do with optics. A lens has to project a wide enough cone of light to illuminate the peripheral AF sensors even at f/8. It is probably not coincidental that the two supported lenses are Canon's newest big whites - off-center f/8 focusing has probably been a specific design goal with them. The Mark III extenders are also somehow special compared to their predecessors - even the 1DX2 can only focus with a few AF points at f/8 with Mark I and II extenders.
I'm sure the choice of supported lenses is not a business decision. Who would buy a $10k 200-400L and use it with a 80D? I predict we'll see more supported lenses as Canon updates their lineup.
p.6 #2 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)
Zenon Char wrote:
I checked the specs and could not find it. Does it have MFA? I think the 60D did not have it which turned some people off and I don't know anything about the 70D.
Yes - it is specifically referred to in the manual on Canon's site.
p.6 #4 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)
lowside67 wrote:
Is it really reasonable to expect the cheapest Canon body for sale outside the Rebel line must autofocus all F8 combos with 27 points? I mean a 5D3, 5DSR, 7D2, 1DX can't do it either, so it is in good company!
Mark
I'm still surprised they allowed any type of f/8 focusing on the 80D based on its target market. But I'm happy they did. The 27 points with the 1-4II+1.4III is what made me order the body so way to go Canon...you made one sale for that feature.
p.6 #5 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)
arbitrage wrote:
I'm still surprised they allowed any type of f/8 focusing on the 80D based on its target market. But I'm happy they did. The 27 points with the 1-4II+1.4III is what made me order the body so way to go Canon...you made one sale for that feature.
If it helps to sell some more 100-400II lenses to 80D customers, it might be a clever decision from Canon. If the 80D price drops a bit more I guess they will sell more of them than of the 7D2, 1DX and 5D3 (which are probably the main bodies now for 100-400II buyers). Nikon has its more affordable 200-500mm lens that is very popular. Maybe Canon should offer a special bundle of 80D + 100-400II (+ TC1.4?) for birders and other enthusiast wildlife photographers?
p.6 #6 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)
technic wrote:
If it helps to sell some more 100-400II lenses to 80D customers, it might be a clever decision from Canon. If the 80D price drops a bit more I guess they will sell more of them than of the 7D2, 1DX and 5D3 (which are probably the main bodies now for 100-400II buyers). Nikon has its more affordable 200-500mm lens that is very popular. Maybe Canon should offer a special bundle of 80D + 100-400II (+ TC1.4?) for birders and other enthusiast wildlife photographers?
Your idea is similar to mine, and why I suspect the 80D was deliberately crippled. The 400DO II is a lot newer than the 200-400 but was excluded? Makes no sense to me.
p.6 #7 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)
technic wrote:
If it helps to sell some more 100-400II lenses to 80D customers, it might be a clever decision from Canon. If the 80D price drops a bit more I guess they will sell more of them than of the 7D2, 1DX and 5D3 (which are probably the main bodies now for 100-400II buyers). Nikon has its more affordable 200-500mm lens that is very popular. Maybe Canon should offer a special bundle of 80D + 100-400II (+ TC1.4?) for birders and other enthusiast wildlife photographers?
In the Asian countries.... very popular to purchase rebel or 80D (smaller) type bodies and pair them with "L" glass &/or long telephoto lenses.
I have seen it over the course of 5 years in China, Japan and Taiwan.
p.6 #8 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)
Iwas joeking wrote:
Your idea is similar to mine, and why I suspect the 80D was deliberately crippled. The 400DO II is a lot newer than the 200-400 but was excluded? Makes no sense to me.
The Diffractive Optics show rings in the image under some circumstances. I'm sure that this affects the AF module.
p.6 #10 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)
Let's be clear why f/8 AF has been problematic to start with. Phase detect AF works by looking at incoming rays of light from either side of the aperture. This is the baseline size and the bigger the baseline the more accurate the comparison of phase can be since you will have a bigger phase difference from these rays. Thus fast glass is always superior just for this reason alone. But alos think of what happens with smaller apertures in terms of the rays that can be accepted. The smaller the aperture the more paraxial the rays that can be focused by the lens, thus the phase difference will always be smaller on rays from either side of the aperture since they come from a much smaller region of object space. So even for the AF sensors that are in the centre they have to be more sensitive to be able to detect this smaller phase difference and why in the past only the high end cameras offered any AF at f/8 and even then only with the most sensitive dual cross-type centre point. As the AF sensor sensitivity improves and the signal processing power increases you can now have enough phase difference to analyze on AF points that are off-centre, but not too much so. The peripheral AF points are of course much more problematic as they rely on the phase difference in skew rays from further out from the lens centre and of course wider open these rays may suffer from vignetting which reduces their intensity and possibly other lens aberrations.
For Canon to achieve AF at f/8 with all points on the 1DX II is a truly impressive feat. For the 80D I presume it's a combination of less sensitive AF points and a lot less processing power for signal analysis, after all 1DX II has dedicated AF cpu and dual digic 6+, compared to 80D's single digic. As to why the 80D only allows of-centre AF at f/8 with two lenses is rather interesting. I can't see why say the 500/600 II + 2x would not work, but maybe it's to do with the final FL's of 1000 and 1200mm being just too paraxial since fov is only 1.7-2 degrees and maybe 560mm with FoV of 3.6 degrees allows enough phase difference to be measured by the 80D. This is a small difference and maybe FW update down the track would change things.
Edited since I should have used 560mm not 800 for the 100-400 + 1.4x
p.6 #12 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)
technic wrote:
If it helps to sell some more 100-400II lenses to 80D customers, it might be a clever decision from Canon.
If you can drop a 1.4X + 100-400 II and still AF ... +1 @ that's gonna have an appeal to some.
As to the 500/600 II + 2X ... ummm, that's a totally different market segment that is oriented to max performance, forget the $$$ and won't likely be looking to mount such glass onto a consumer grade 80D (hence a "compromised" f8 solution in the 80D for "regular folks").
Bear in mind that Sigma & Tamron offer 600mm AF solutions (f/6.3) that WILL AF where the Canon 100-400 + TC wouldn't AF on an XXD or XXXD body (or even 6D). Guessing they realized they were losing out to a segment of the market that found the AF solution in the Sigma / Tamron (and Nikon) acceptable. Rather than retool glass, likely easier to just put pseudo-XD performing AF into an XXD body. Hopefully they will carry that over to the 6D II as well.
p.6 #13 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)
If they had only included the 100-400II +1.4III in the 27 f/8 category then I would totally agree that it was a deliberate decision based on the 80D target market. However, the fact they included the most random combo of 200-400 + 2xIII makes me lean towards there being a scientific reason as others have theorized. I had a look on the EXIF gallery on this forum and I'm the only one that has ever posted an image shot with the 200-400+2x so it seems like it is not a frequently used combo.
I do plan to mount the 600+2x onto the 80D, and I would have liked to have a lower row of AF points to use as I will be using it for a very specific task that is easier if I can use a lower row of points. The 1DX2 would be better as the points go even lower but there isn't enough reach for my situation so I will compromise using the centre point as I did last year with the 7D2. I am cautiously hoping the 80D has more consistent AF than the 7D2. Next week I hope to evaluate them side by side if my 80D ships.
p.6 #14 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)
+1 @ lower row of points = more (composition options) is better.
But, if they make it "too good" ...
Personally, I had no anticipation / expectation that Canon would ever put f/8 AF into anything other than an XD Series. So that comes as a pleasant surprise for me. So in the 1/2 empty vs. 1/2 full perspective ... I'll take the 1/2 full on this one.
Ticks just about all my checkmarks (except for dual cards and PC sync and the AA filter) for an APS-C ... but, I'll take the f/8 AF over those things. Granted that means shooting WO+TC, but you're actually the one who presented the 100-400 II + TC combination as viable back in your "guess which" series, that swayed me that way. I just hadn't found a body (to my liking) yet to take advantage of it.
The 80D looks promising (in APS-C) with both f/8 and articulating display. Up to this point those two things were an "either / or" proposition, rather than an "and". Reasonable expectations regarding noise / DR in APS-C, but hopefully we see some real world improvement there too, as wildlife doesn't always play in Sunny 16.
p.6 #15 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)
RustyBug wrote:
The 80D looks promising (in APS-C) with both f/8 and articulating display. Up to this point those two things were an "either / or" proposition, rather than an "and". Reasonable expectations regarding noise / DR in APS-C, but hopefully we see some real world improvement there too, as wildlife doesn't always play in Sunny 16.
Yes, it is nice that you can finally get articulating display and capable AF (with focus adjust, and a decent viewfinder) in the same Canon body. To be sure, with Nikon the situation isn't much different, AFAIK D500 is the first Nikon APS-C camera that offers all these features in one body.
I hope the new sensor will prove a bit better in practice than some forum posts suggest (1 stop less DR than 7D2 at higher ISO values doesn't sound great and would probably be worse than a 70D ...).
p.6 #16 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)
technic wrote:
I hope the new sensor will prove a bit better in practice than some forum posts suggest (1 stop less DR than 7D2 at higher ISO values doesn't sound great and would probably be worse than a 70D ...).
No, I guess you readed that about the 5DS vs 80D.
The 7D2 only seems to have a slight advantage in DR at high ISO compared to the 80D (about 1/3 EV at very high ISO). Taking into account the accuracy of the measurements (to start, both cameras ISO levels could be not equally calibrated) we'll have to wait for a more elaborated analysis (which could confirm, but also increase or even almost eliminate such expected minor advantage).
p.6 #17 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)
cgarcia wrote:
No, I guess you readed that about the 5DS vs 80D.
The 7D2 only seems to have a slight advantage in DR at high ISO compared to the 80D (about 1/3 EV at very high ISO). Taking into account the accuracy of the measurements (to start, both cameras ISO levels could be not equally calibrated) we'll have to wait for a more elaborated analysis (which could confirm, but also increase or even almost eliminate such expected minor advantage).
OK, could be that indeed this was compared with another camera. I don't nave any problem with 1/3 stop worse High ISO than 7D2 and agree that without carefully controlled tests one can't be sure about minor differences yet. Anyway, this gives me some time to wait for sensor performance results from D500, which is another potential option for me - I like to have all the options on the table before making a decision ;-)
p.6 #19 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)
technic wrote:
I don't nave any problem with 1/3 stop worse High ISO than 7D2
+1
As long as there is a greater gain on the Low ISO side of things ... 1/3 stop diff @ High ISO (defined as ) makes about as much difference as spittin' in the ocean.
p.6 #20 · Canon 80D dynamic range: good news! (quick test with RAW images)
arbitrage wrote:
I'm still surprised they allowed any type of f/8 focusing on the 80D based on its target market. But I'm happy they did. The 27 points with the 1-4II+1.4III is what made me order the body so way to go Canon...you made one sale for that feature.
Geoff, am very interested in your evaluation, images and thoughts, waiting patiently, kinda
) makes about as much difference as spittin' in the ocean.