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Archive 2016 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

nampramos
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

I am looking for a high quality macro lens to use with a T/S adaptor on a Sony E-mount FF and 1.5x crop-sensor.

These two Mamiya lenses seem to be on the top list of many users here and other forums.

Would you say that one is considerably better than the other? Remember that it won't be used in a 645 camera but instead FF or 1.5 crop-sensor, so corner performance can be ignored in this case.

Price wise, the 80/4 with the spacer (for 1:1) sells normally for half the price of the 120/4 (which does 1:1 without the spacer. Is then the 120mm worth double the cost? And how much more working distance would I get from the 120mm, anyone knows?

I'd also like to take the opportunity to ask for suggestions on which T/S adaptor to use. The Mirex ones look great, but at almost 500 euro, make little sense to me.

Thanks in advance!

Mar 16, 2016 at 10:23 AM

mbphoto_2.8
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

considering how 120mm is 50% longer than 80mm, I would go on a wild guess and say that you might get 50% more working distance at 1:1 magnification?

I've got the 120mm and am absolutely in love with this lens, 80mm would be too short for me.

Mar 16, 2016 at 10:42 AM

mhespenheide
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

I honestly haven't tried both. Not that many people that I know of owned the 80/4 macro, because almost everyone started out with the 80/2.8 normal lens that was so good that very few people saw the need to duplicate the focal length. So most people who wanted a macro lens went with the 120/4.

I have the Mirex and it's a wonderful piece of engineering. I bought it back when I was using the Sony a850 and there were no other options. I continue to use it today, paired with an a7r and an LA-EA3. Of course, there are other options now, but like I say it's a very nice piece of gear. I'm not familiar with anything else that will let you get T/S on full frame. What else is out there?

Mar 16, 2016 at 10:49 AM

nampramos
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

mbphoto_2.8 your guess is as good as mine!

mhespenheide I am sure the Mirex is a great piece of engineering and from the photos it looks very nice indeed. But when I got the price quote from them my chin just dropped: 453 euro for the adapter, 10 euro for "effort for shipment abroad" and 14 euro for shipping cost. This comes down to 477 euro (or 530 usd).

Seems a bit steep, taking in consideration that just some years ago they seemed to sell for 200 euro (according to what I read in other forums and blogs). Plus, this is an adaptor, with no optical glass on it. Even though it is a great piece of engineering, hand made in Germany, I still feel like the price does not make sense. Either that, or my pockets are just too small.

Anyway, if anyone could speak regarding the 80/4 vs 120/4 that would be great. Thanks!

Mar 16, 2016 at 11:21 AM

RustyBug
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

I've got the 80/4 ... Not the 120. Not sure if Jim has both or not.

Mar 16, 2016 at 12:39 PM

jcolwell
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

I have both the C 80/4N Macro and A 120/4 Macro. I attached a below a figure showing working distance (from the front of the lens to the subject, with no hood) as a function of magnification for these two lenses, plus a few others.

I use the C 80/4N a lot for small product, close-up photography, but I rarely use it for macro; I always prefer to use the A 120/4 when the magnification starts to climb towards 1:2, and beyond.

The A 120/4 is an excellent lens for both close-up/macro and more distant subjects. It is very sharp and has beautiful bokeh. The C 80/4N is also a nice (not so excellent) lens for closeup/macro, but it's not very good for more distant subjects. I recently included the C 80/4N Macro and C 80/2.8 N in a comparison of prime and zoom lenses at 70mm to 80mm focal lengths, at f/8 for near infinity focus distance (i.e. scenic photography). My benchmark prime was the Voigtlander 75/2.5 SL. In this test, the C 80/4N Macro was clearly inferior to all of the other lenses included (CV 75/2.8, C 80/2.8N, and three Canon L zooms). The C 80/2.8 N was the best of the whole lot. Next best was the CV 75/2.5, followed by the EF 70-200/2.8L IS II (both being excellent).

I generally use the C 80/4 Macro and A 120/4 Macro with fixed, Fotodiox Pro adapters. I rarely use my Mirex T-S adapter with the macro lenses, as I have a Mamiya Auto Bellows N system that provides better movements and more precise control for macro shooting with tilt-shift. I use the Mirex T-S adapter for perspective and plane of focus control with the C 55/2.8N, C 80/2.8N, and A 150/2.8 lenses. These three lenses (plus the A 120/4 Macro, A 150/2.8, A 200/2.8 APO, and A 300/2.8 APO) are optically as good as, or better than, just about anything in the "full frame" world. The C 35/3.5N is not as good as the TS-E 24/3.5L II + 1.4x III, and so I don't use it any more.

The A 120/4 Macro does cost more than the C 80/4 N Macro, but it's still inexpensive compared to most modern 100mm to 180mm macro lenses, and better than them in many respects. I think the A 120/4 Macro is an incredible bargain when you consider the great IQ that it provides. I also have the Canon EF 100/2.8L IS Macro which is great for handheld shooting (and as backup to my 70-200/2.8L IS II for low light events), but I much prefer to use the A 120/4 Macro for tripod shooting.

Macro working diatance vs. magnification (front of lens to subject)

Mar 16, 2016 at 01:12 PM

mcbroomf
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

Difficult following a post of Jim's as usual ...

I'll just add though that the only other T/S adapter other than the Mirex I've used with MF glass is the Kipon. It's clearly a copy of the Mirex and still not cheap, but is only available for Hassy (in MF flanges) directly. I bought a Nikon-Sony T/S from them then added a MF-Nikon adapter. This was for normal FL, not tele-macro. The only disadvantage with it that I found is that it has no rotation stop, and on the A7R after I switched to the Tough E mount there were times that I couldn't get it to release from the Sony mount, I'd have to remove the lens and hold the inside of the adapter at the flange to prevent it rotating.

For normal'ish FL I had to flock it too. I don't know how it would be with a longer FL.

Mike

Mar 16, 2016 at 01:42 PM

jcolwell
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

Hey Mike, I got you bracketed.

Mar 16, 2016 at 01:53 PM

mcbroomf
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

Only 2 though .. not much good for HDR

Mar 16, 2016 at 01:58 PM

jcolwell
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

About the only thing not to like about the A 120/4 Macro is that it's kind of big, although not that much larger than the C 80/4 N Macro at [1:1] mag.

The first image below shows the A 120/4 Macro at 1:1 mag and with the Nikon HN-13 hood I use on it (which is basically the same as a Contax Metal Hood 5). The 6D + A 120/4 Macro are mounted on a Contax focus rail, which is in turn mounted on a Hejnar 12" plate that's secured in a RRS clamp. I move the 12" rail for coarse positioning and then use the Contax rail for focus control at high mag. I've shown this setup in the past and it apparently gives some folks the heebie-jeebies (like a horizontal Leaning Tower of Mamiya), so I followed it with the lens on a RRS + Hejnar "long lens support" gizmo (the Tower works just fine).

I also attached some images comparing the A 120/4 Macro at [1:1] mag with the internal-focusing Canon EF 100/2.8L IS Macro, and the C 80/4N Macro at [1:2] and at [1:1] with the Auto Macro Spacer.

Mamiya 645 A 120/4 Macro on 6D, on Contax focus rail, on 12

Mamiya 645 A 120/4 Macro on 6D and long lens support

Mamiya 645 A 120/4 Macro at [1:1] and Canon EF 100/2.8 L IS Macro

Mamiya 645 A 120/4 Macro at [1:1] and C 80/4 N Macro at [1:2]

Mamiya 645 A 120/4 Macro at [1:1] and C 80/4 N Macro at [1:1]

Edited on Mar 16, 2016 at 08:51 PM · View previous versions

Mar 16, 2016 at 02:04 PM

jcolwell
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

Here's some example images taken with the 1DsIII + A 120/4 Macro. I'm not sure what the aperture values and magnifications were.

A flower

Same flower at 100%

Another flower

Another, nother flower

Mar 16, 2016 at 02:08 PM

jcolwell
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

Here's a last example taken at [1:1] magnification. The first image is the full photo, followed by two 100% crops; one where it's sharp (i.e. in focus), and another showing foreground bokeh where it's a bit OOF.

Example full photo at [1:1]

100% crop of in focus area

100% crop of nearby OOF area

Mar 16, 2016 at 02:12 PM

nampramos
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

Wow! Great stuff!! Thank you so much for the info and photos (which look amazing!).

The lens is indeed massive but for use with a T/S adapter I guess it is the best option. Plus, the price is way lower than a modern macro lens from either Nikon, Canon or Sony.

Now I just need to find the T/S adapter (one that doesnt cost a fortune like the Mirex).

Might have to settle for one that only does Shift.

More photos please!

Mar 16, 2016 at 03:54 PM

ReyGay
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

I vouch that the Mamiya 645 120mm f/4 is a phenomenal lens.

As requested, here are some samples: (apologies for the large image size)

at 1:1 plus extension tubes - it has great resolution and CA is very well controlled

The Tongue of nature (Mamiya 645 120mm f/4 Macro APO) by Rey M, on Flickr

full size here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/reygay/9543609747/sizes/o/

A Resting Moth (Mamiya 645 120mm f/4 Macro APO) by Rey M, on Flickr

In a Thorny Situation by Rey M, on Flickr

Biking Along with a Serious Face by Rey M, on Flickr

A Vortex of Lightness by Rey M, on Flickr

Pinkish Delights by Rey M, on Flickr

more samples here: https://www.flickr.com/search/?user_id=76331983%40N00&sort=date-taken-desc&text=mamiya%20120mm&view_all=1

Jim's long lens support is one of the things I need for this lens and the Mamiya 200mm apo.

My Flickr Gallery
My interesting photos on Flickriver

Mar 16, 2016 at 05:48 PM

mhespenheide
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

I'll chime in one last time, then let the thread move on.

I'll admit that I haven't been monitoring the price of the Mirex closely, but I bought it for about ~$600USD and I've never seen it drop much below that.

To my thinking, buying one expensive tilt-shift adapter and three or four inexpensive Mamiya lenses gave me three or four tilt-shift lenses for the price of a single Canon tilt-shift lens.

If you're doing landscape work, I find the tilt functionality a huge aid in depth of field. I don't do that much macro work, but the times that I do it in the field, it's really nice to be able to shoot at an angle to a subject and not be limited to shooting directly straight-on (at 90 degrees to a flattish subject).

Mar 16, 2016 at 06:06 PM

mhespenheide
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

Rey, nice work!

Mar 16, 2016 at 06:07 PM

ReyGay
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

Thanks!

Mar 17, 2016 at 01:48 AM

nampramos
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

Great shots! Thanks for sharing.

The thing about the price of the adapter is that I will most likely only use it with the 120/4 Macro. I already have the lenses I need for everything else and they do a great job at a fraction of the size/weight.

I guess the Mirex costs that much because there really arent any alternatives.

Mar 17, 2016 at 03:42 AM

Peire
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

Damned!After reading all that I started lookig around for a nice,reasonably priced copy of the 120/4.0 Macro.

Mar 17, 2016 at 09:40 AM

jcolwell
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Mamiya 645 Macro: 80/4 vs. 120/4

Peire wrote:
Damned!After reading all that I started lookig around for a nice,reasonably priced copy of the 120/4.0 Macro.

Good plan. Just make sure you get the older, manual focus model, with a manual aperture ring. The M645 AF model is still a manual focus lens, but it doesn't have an aperture ring.

Mar 17, 2016 at 09:44 AM

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