p.5 #1 · Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM or Voigtlander 35mm f1.7 Ultron for Landscape with deep DOF for A7rM and A7rII
edwardkaraa wrote:
The build quality of the ZM 35/1.4 is on a different level than any other ZM. Some Leica users claim it is even better made than M lenses.
I agree with this Edward. I have owned quite a few ZM's and I feel that the build quality and precision of this model is a step up. Not to say the other ZM models are inferior as they are all built very well.... I finally managed to unglue my ZM35/1.4 from my camera yesterday after being on it for a month.
p.5 #2 · Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM or Voigtlander 35mm f1.7 Ultron for Landscape with deep DOF for A7rM and A7rII
uhoh7 wrote:
If I could have any 35 tomorrow my first choice would be the FLE. My second the 8 element cron. My third....the ZM 35/1.4
hmmm, my first choice would always be the rx1 lens magically made into a manual focus interchangeable lens, but after that i'd probably choose the pre-FLE asph followed by the zm 35/1.4. the FLE doesn't really appeal to me since i don't shoot an m camera. i lust after the 8 element for the build, but i think i like the look of the pre-asph lux better.
p.5 #3 · Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM or Voigtlander 35mm f1.7 Ultron for Landscape with deep DOF for A7rM and A7rII
rscheffler wrote:
I'm not sure I follow. The Ultron is a very good lens and stopped down just a bit is IMO impressive across the frame (on Leica M). I haven't compared it directly against the ZM 35/1.4 but would be surprised if there is much sharpness difference.
I think rendering character would be the bigger differentiator.
As for the 35/1.2... I don't believe it's as good as either. It suffers from greater field curvature than either the Distagon or Ultron. Perhaps by happenstance, that field curvature is counteracted on unmodded Sonys by the thick cover glass, making it one of the better performing RF 35s. Mod the camera and it will be a worse performer. If I recall my tests of it on the M9/M240, it needed to be stopped down a bit (~f/5.6) to bring up the edges and corners and never really had the bite one would expect of of a ZM lens. IMO, the Ultron has better bite than the 1.2.
Yeah, it's going to come down to personal preferences.
Bottom line for me is I'm happy with the Ultron as an all purpose lens for ~$650 US imported. The ZM is possibly nicer in respect to some Zeissy rendering characteristics as noted by Philippe, but for me, not worth spending nearly 3x more. ...Show more →
Well, I mean if one is after sharpness, the ZM 35/1.4 should be the top of that list. As you started deviating from that, a little compromise here and there (size, weight, cost, nicer bokeh, etc.), it would come down to personal preferences. And to that point, the 35/1.2 is one of the strong contenders as well. I think that lens has the best bokeh among all the M-mount 35. The Cron 35/2 V.4 needs to be stopped down to get that famed smoothness.
Not that the Ultron is a bad lens, it just depends on the priority. In my experience and reading LUF posts, the ZM 35/1.4 is the only M-mount lens can go together with the 50 APO while having a f/1.4.
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edwardkaraa wrote:
The build quality of the ZM 35/1.4 is on a different level than any other ZM. Some Leica users claim it is even better made than M lenses.
I think the German made ZM should be in the exception. As nice as the ZM 35/1.4 is, my ZM 15 is just nod above. Everything is just right mechanically: smoothness of focus, right amount of focus resistance to the firm but not stiff aperture ring. Even the 50 APO has problem with too loose aperture ring. I don't know about the ZM 85 .
p.5 #4 · Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM or Voigtlander 35mm f1.7 Ultron for Landscape with deep DOF for A7rM and A7rII
sebboh wrote:
hmmm, my first choice would always be the rx1 lens magically made into a manual focus interchangeable lens, but after that i'd probably choose the pre-FLE asph followed by the zm 35/1.4. the FLE doesn't really appeal to me since i don't shoot an m camera. i lust after the 8 element for the build, but i think i like the look of the pre-asph lux better.
If only Sony can make a 50mm RX with the same pedigree, I would jump on that. I follow that RX thread closely and I love most of the thing about the lens.
p.5 #5 · Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM or Voigtlander 35mm f1.7 Ultron for Landscape with deep DOF for A7rM and A7rII
hiepphotog wrote:
Well, I mean if one is after sharpness, the ZM 35/1.4 should be the top of that list.
It certainly would be interesting to see a side by side comparison of the Ultron to the ZM 35/1.4 on a Leica M or Sony A7x Mod body. I have not seen that yet. Unless you have, I'm not sure how statements like this can be made about the ZM's superiority. I have seen enough from the better Voigtlanders to know that one should not discount them, particularly with regard to sharpness, before trying.
p.5 #6 · Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM or Voigtlander 35mm f1.7 Ultron for Landscape with deep DOF for A7rM and A7rII
Tariq Gibran wrote:
It certainly would be interesting to see a side by side comparison of the Ultron to the ZM 35/1.4 on a Leica M or Sony A7x Mod body. I have not seen that yet. Unless you have, I'm not sure how statements like this can be made about the ZM's superiority. I have seen enough from the better Voigtlanders to know that one should not discount them, particularly with regard to sharpness, before trying.
Tariq, I can't think of a single CV M-mount that is sharper than a Zeiss/Leica equivalent (give or take less than a stop in max aperture). They are very good no doubt, but top of the heap in term of sharpness, I don't think so. CV is often after a certain characteristic, but not absolute sharpness.
On the other hand, both 50 APO and the D 35 have been tested to show the highest shapress in the M system (Imatest and the like). My own shooting with these two seems to bear that out at infinity as well.
p.5 #7 · Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM or Voigtlander 35mm f1.7 Ultron for Landscape with deep DOF for A7rM and A7rII
hiepphotog wrote:
Tariq, I can't think of a single CV M-mount that is sharper than a Zeiss/Leica equivalent (give or take less than a stop in max aperture). They are very good no doubt, but top of the heap in term of sharpness, I don't think so. CV is often after a certain characteristic, but not absolute sharpness.
On the other hand, both 50 APO and the D 35 have been tested to show the highest shapress in the M system (Imatest and the like). My own shooting with these two seems to bear that out at infinity as well.
My CV 40/1.4 is dramatically sharper than the Leica/ Minolta 40/2 in the center at all apertures they share. This lens is "classic" in the fact that it has more of a central sweet spot vs across the frame sharpness until stopped down to F5.6/8. By F8 though, it is the sharpest lens I have used on my A7r over 95% of the frame (excluding the very extreme corners but then the leica/ Minolta does no better on a stock A7x). That's just one sample of one lens but it is enough, after testing many lenses between 28-40mm's, that I'm not prepared to automatically discount the Voigtlanders (with regard to sharpness/ resolution) without testing them. Other Voigtlander lenses I have used, such as the 28/1.9 Aspherical, are similarly sharp in the center though my sample of that lens did suffer CA fairly strongly (common with many older Vioigtlanders, though my 40/1.4 does not have that problem). If the new 35/1.7 Ultron could match my 40/1.4 with regard to sharpness (which I suspect it can though I'm not sure it would be as good on an unmodded A7r), it would be a no brainer for me given it's a little wider which I prefer.
p.5 #8 · Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM or Voigtlander 35mm f1.7 Ultron for Landscape with deep DOF for A7rM and A7rII
hiepphotog wrote:
I think the German made ZM should be in the exception. As nice as the ZM 35/1.4 is, my ZM 15 is just nod above. Everything is just right mechanically: smoothness of focus, right amount of focus resistance to the firm but not stiff aperture ring. Even the 50 APO has problem with too loose aperture ring. I don't know about the ZM 85 .
I never owned the ZM 15 but I have the ZM 85. It is built exactly the same as the other ZM, using the same body structure. The only difference is that the necessary machinery to assemble the special helicoid was not available at Cosina during its time of introduction so it had tp be built in Germany. The ZM 35/1.4 has a new body design different from all other ZM. The focusing action feels extremely dampened, almost "velvety", or "luxurious"
p.5 #9 · Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM or Voigtlander 35mm f1.7 Ultron for Landscape with deep DOF for A7rM and A7rII
Tariq Gibran wrote:
My CV 40/1.4 is dramatically sharper than the Leica/ Minolta 40/2 in the center at all apertures they share. This lens is "classic" in the fact that it has more of a central sweet spot vs across the frame sharpness until stopped down to F5.6/8. By F8 though, it is the sharpest lens I have used on my A7r over 95% of the frame (excluding the very extreme corners but then the leica/ Minolta does no better on a stock A7x). That's just one sample of one lens but it is enough, after testing many lenses between 28-40mm's, that I'm not prepared to automatically discount the Voigtlanders (with regard to sharpness/ resolution) without testing them. Other Voigtlander lenses I have used, such as the 28/1.9 Aspherical, are similarly sharp in the center though my sample of that lens did suffer CA fairly strongly (common with many older Vioigtlanders, though my 40/1.4 does not have that problem). If the new 35/1.7 Ultron could match my 40/1.4 with regard to sharpness (which I suspect it can though I'm not sure it would be as good on an unmodded A7r), it would be a no brainer for me given it's a little wider which I prefer.
Here is what i would do rent the VC 35mm or buy it and if it does not meet your needs than simply return it. I don't usually recommend folks doing this but if your really stuck on deciding and reading this thread i can see a lot of back and forth on both lenses than it maybe wise to rent it or buy it. Just a thought
But from what I am reading the end goal here is a small, MF lens in 35mm and that is the criteria it looks like in this thread because there are many options as well in other areas of lenses. Basically you put a big limitation on choice right out of the gate, which I do understand. I keep thinking the Loxia 35 because it is small, light and MF but you need to get past F2 to about F4 for excellent corners. I guess the question I have is why landscape wide open do the corners matter as much, I honestly never shot landscape wide open its usually stopped down. Now I would not mind having that ZM 35mm either but its got a nice price tag on it. Obviously I am overlooking lens look and character and just talking about the meat of the conversation which is great BTW. I read this and I start thinking logical and not artistic too. Just some random thoughts.
Both lenses plus more are available to rent. Im a big fan of renting if your stuck on deciding to buy
p.5 #10 · Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM or Voigtlander 35mm f1.7 Ultron for Landscape with deep DOF for A7rM and A7rII
GMPhotography wrote:
Here is what i would do rent the VC 35mm or buy it and if it does not meet your needs than simply return it. I don't usually recommend folks doing this but if your really stuck on deciding and reading this thread i can see a lot of back and forth on both lenses than it maybe wise to rent it or buy it. Just a thought
But from what I am reading the end goal here is a small, MF lens in 35mm and that is the criteria it looks like in this thread because there are many options as well in other areas of lenses. Basically you put a big limitation on choice right out of the gate, which I do understand. I keep thinking the Loxia 35 because it is small, light and MF but you need to get past F2 to about F4 for excellent corners. I guess the question I have is why landscape wide open do the corners matter as much, I honestly never shot landscape wide open its usually stopped down. Now I would not mind having that ZM 35mm either but its got a nice price tag on it. Obviously I am overlooking lens look and character and just talking about the meat of the conversation which is great BTW. I read this and I start thinking logical and not artistic too. Just some random thoughts.
Both lenses plus more are available to rent. Im a big fan of renting if your stuck on deciding to buy
Thanks for your input. There is something to consider about getting an M mount rather than something like the Loxia lenses. That is the fact that in addition to generally being relatively small, light, and sharp is the fact that M mount lenses will work mounted on other cameras. Of course they will work on Leica M, now Leica T, Leica SL cameras, Sony FF FE and their smaller APS-C cameras, Fuji X cameras... In addition, these lenses may well be able to be used on future FF mirrorless cameras by other makers as long as the cameras have shallower registration than the M mount cameras. M mount lenses can then perform double and triple duty usage. Unless I am mistaken, the same can not be said about the Loxia lenses. At least for now, these lenses will only work on Sony's own FF FE and APS-C cameras. I do not believe that they can be adapted to other platforms and therefore have a much more limited for this application.
p.5 #11 · Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM or Voigtlander 35mm f1.7 Ultron for Landscape with deep DOF for A7rM and A7rII
Rich yes can't argue that with regards to M mount and doing dual duty. Myself and lets keep this quiet I would not be buying a Leica again, I'm not fond of there CMOS sensors but hey thats me. I came a from a very rich world of Leica DMR R and M cams and I honestly got tired of paying for that 1 to 2 percent premium in lens quality. Now as one of those grandfathers to the Alt forum we all go through this Leica/Zeiss phase at one time in our pursuit of the perfect lens and truth be told Im one of the biggest lens whores around but I really backed off on Leica for some reason or another and its mostly due to there cams, the costs do not offer the value over the Sony sensors which are great. So there bodies hold no interest to me anymore. Lens of course Leica makes great glass and i said it for years they should have just made lenses and sell them like Zeiss to everybody and there cousins. I know a lot of folks like the feel and high quality Leica cams to own. Im just at a point I'm over it but I do totally get that Leica feeling of ownership so don't take this in the wrong way from me. Maybe this is age or just so many dang years doing this and I just settled down. Not sure but I do get what your saying as I been there as well. And yes Loxia is Sony bodies only so you do put yourself in a sandbox.
I think maybe a good choice although they are a little clinical is the Summarit series. Leica sent me all of them to test and one thing was clear they all performed very nicely across the frame and as a set they all matched each other and for leica pricing they are the bargain line but very good too. They just don't have a lot of character like a Summilux or even a Cron. But me bet is they are good wide open across the frame, for landscape it maybe not a bad choice. The hard part here is if your trying to get one lens to do a lot of things well. Nice character wide open and look don't always make it the best sharp as a freaking tack landscape lens so going one lens as we see here is difficult to get in your hands. Lenses are usual one or two things anymore. Latest lens design as we see are sharp across the frame in the wide open area . Tammy for instance, Batis 25 and some others , brilliant lenses wide open but they do lack that character we may see in a Summilux and such. As I think about it this thread could go on for decades talking about how certain lenses perform better than other in certain areas. And sometime it maybe wise to get two totally diffrent lenses in the same Focal length. That maybe the conclusion here for some folks.
I have not shot either one of these lenses in this thread so I don't want to derail it or anything like that but just add some perspective to help if I can. But I do love that you guys are into this as that does excite me to see you all want to learn and share. Thats the best part
p.5 #12 · Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM or Voigtlander 35mm f1.7 Ultron for Landscape with deep DOF for A7rM and A7rII
GMPhotography wrote:
Here is what i would do rent the VC 35mm or buy it and if it does not meet your needs than simply return it. I don't usually recommend folks doing this but if your really stuck on deciding and reading this thread i can see a lot of back and forth on both lenses than it maybe wise to rent it or buy it. Just a thought
But from what I am reading the end goal here is a small, MF lens in 35mm and that is the criteria it looks like in this thread because there are many options as well in other areas of lenses. Basically you put a big limitation on choice right out of the gate, which I do understand. I keep thinking the Loxia 35 because it is small, light and MF but you need to get past F2 to about F4 for excellent corners. I guess the question I have is why landscape wide open do the corners matter as much, I honestly never shot landscape wide open its usually stopped down. Now I would not mind having that ZM 35mm either but its got a nice price tag on it. Obviously I am overlooking lens look and character and just talking about the meat of the conversation which is great BTW. I read this and I start thinking logical and not artistic too. Just some random thoughts.
Both lenses plus more are available to rent. Im a big fan of renting if your stuck on deciding to buy
Yes, I would rent it (or just right out buy it given the price) if I really thought the 35/1.7 Voigtlander would meet my expectations on an unmodded A7r. I don't think it will quite get there though based on what I have seen (I would need to mod my sensor).
The Loxia 35 which I tried was a bit of a let down with regard to across the frame performance at distance/ infinity. No better than some of the cheaper alt options that can be had for between $75 - $125. Not that it's a bad lens at all, just not as exceptional as I expected it to be for the $$.
p.5 #14 · Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM or Voigtlander 35mm f1.7 Ultron for Landscape with deep DOF for A7rM and A7rII
GMPhotography wrote:
I was let down more by the wide open performance of the Loxia 35mm. Did not like the booked much
It's the ZM 35/2 formula with some slight adjustments for the A7 sensor stack, which resulted in a muted version of the original, with the same weakness of the original: a bit strained at F/2.
I wonder if they have the processor employed to correct the Loxia, I would suspect yes.
The A7r2 is in many ways the best one yet, and I like the richer, more distinct colors, bright field, but it's really still a native lens affair which is too restricting for me. It's also overpriced, I think.
If you love lots of lenses, the Sonys are very problematic. The Kolari mod is the answer, but not cheap, and suddenly you have a 3700USD body on your hands. Same cost as used M240 these days. And for the same money you could have a M9 AND a A7.mod (my setup today)
But we know that in not too long used A7r2 bodies will be available and we will start seeing mods. That will be very interesting
p.5 #15 · Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM or Voigtlander 35mm f1.7 Ultron for Landscape with deep DOF for A7rM and A7rII
Tariq Gibran wrote:
My CV 40/1.4 is dramatically sharper than the Leica/ Minolta 40/2 in the center at all apertures they share. This lens is "classic" in the fact that it has more of a central sweet spot vs across the frame sharpness until stopped down to F5.6/8. By F8 though, it is the sharpest lens I have used on my A7r over 95% of the frame (excluding the very extreme corners but then the leica/ Minolta does no better on a stock A7x). That's just one sample of one lens but it is enough, after testing many lenses between 28-40mm's, that I'm not prepared to automatically discount the Voigtlanders (with regard to sharpness/ resolution) without testing them. Other Voigtlander lenses I have used, such as the 28/1.9 Aspherical, are similarly sharp in the center though my sample of that lens did suffer CA fairly strongly (common with many older Vioigtlanders, though my 40/1.4 does not have that problem). If the new 35/1.7 Ultron could match my 40/1.4 with regard to sharpness (which I suspect it can though I'm not sure it would be as good on an unmodded A7r), it would be a no brainer for me given it's a little wider which I prefer.
Are they even in the same vintage? If you can compare like that, a CV 21 1.8 would be surely sharper than the old super angulon, or the 35 1.2 would be as sharp or sharper than the old lux 35 1.4. I'm still not convinced.
p.5 #16 · Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM or Voigtlander 35mm f1.7 Ultron for Landscape with deep DOF for A7rM and A7rII
GMPhotography wrote:
I was let down more by the wide open performance of the Loxia 35mm. Did not like the booked much
Thinking about it Im not sure the VC 35mm 1.7 on a unmodified A7r is the answer, the A7rII I would have much more faith in.
Do you want not upgrade into the A7rII. For ME it was the best move on the planet but I understand folks wanting to stay A7r as well.
Technically, A7r vs A7rII with regard to detail smearing off axis with rangefinder lenses would make no difference (there have been long threads on this fact). The difference would show up though if there is any color vignetting (A7rII being noticeably better).
p.5 #17 · Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM or Voigtlander 35mm f1.7 Ultron for Landscape with deep DOF for A7rM and A7rII
uhoh7 wrote:
It's the ZM 35/2 formula with some slight adjustments for the A7 sensor stack, which resulted in a muted version of the original, with the same weakness of the original: a bit strained at F/2.
I wonder if they have the processor employed to correct the Loxia, I would suspect yes.
The A7r2 is in many ways the best one yet, and I like the richer, more distinct colors, bright field, but it's really still a native lens affair which is too restricting for me. It's also overpriced, I think.
If you love lots of lenses, the Sonys are very problematic. The Kolari mod is the answer, but not cheap, and suddenly you have a 3700USD body on your hands. Same cost as used M240 these days. And for the same money you could have a M9 AND a A7.mod (my setup today)
But we know that in not too long used A7r2 bodies will be available and we will start seeing mods. That will be very interesting ...Show more →
The mod for me makes no sense because most of my glass is native or two DSLR lenses. I do have the VC 15mm but that seems to work very well on a stock. Again Im back to giving up on all that ALT lens stuff. As I said for some reason I'm just over it as long as i can get the quality I need than I don't have to go there. Had to with the VC 15 for instance. Maybe Im getting lazy , don't know but I know one thing. Im not going to pay 5 grand for a lens and get 2 percent improvement because no one but me see's it and my clients won't pay the freight for it.
Im hitting 59 in less than a month and maybe Im just getting cheap. ROTFLMAO
Nov 13, 2015 at 04:41 PM
Steve Spencer Offline • • • • • • • Upload & Sell: On
p.5 #18 · Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM or Voigtlander 35mm f1.7 Ultron for Landscape with deep DOF for A7rM and A7rII
GMPhotography wrote:
The mod for me makes no sense because most of my glass is native or two DSLR lenses. I do have the VC 15mm but that seems to work very well on a stock. Again Im back to giving up on all that ALT lens stuff. As I said for some reason I'm just over it as long as i can get the quality I need than I don't have to go there. Had to with the VC 15 for instance. Maybe Im getting lazy , don't know but I know one thing. Im not going to pay 5 grand for a lens and get 2 percent improvement because no one but me see's it and my clients won't pay the freight for it.
Im hitting 59 in less than a month and maybe Im just getting cheap. ROTFLMAO...Show more →
Rumour has it that there will be a 18mm Batis coming next year. Then you might want to get rid of your VC 15 too. Everyone has different priorities. Me, I still like alt glass and the rendering styles it provides, but I understand when people want native lenses too--I better understand because that is what my wife wants. She is much more tolerant of my alt glass wants if she can get her native lenses
p.5 #19 · Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM or Voigtlander 35mm f1.7 Ultron for Landscape with deep DOF for A7rM and A7rII
Steve Spencer wrote:
Rumour has it that there will be a 18mm Batis coming next year. Then you might want to get rid of your VC 15 too. Everyone has different priorities. Me, I still like alt glass and the rendering styles it provides, but I understand when people want native lenses too--I better understand because that is what my wife wants. She is much more tolerant of my alt glass wants if she can get her native lenses
Unless I need/want AF, I would prefer MF for many or most of my needs which allows for smaller and lighter lenses. With the exception of the Loxia lenses, the only native lenses available for the Sony system are their AF lenses and the Zeiss Batis AF lenses which are also much larger, bulkier and often times heavier than the alternatives. Even the Loxia lenses are often times larger and heavier than the MF RF lenses that are an alternative. I for one like the fact that my WATE offers me the opportunity to carry the single lens for 3 focal lengths and everything between 16 and 21mm. I look forward to receiving my A7rM back from Kolari Vision and seeing the improvement in the performance of the edges and the corners of the lens which is quite small and light for such a flexible optic.
Yippee. I just received an e-mail that Kolari has completed my A7r thin sensor modification and they sent me a USPS tracking number. I should have the camera back early next week perhaps.
p.5 #20 · Zeiss 35mm f1.4 ZM or Voigtlander 35mm f1.7 Ultron for Landscape with deep DOF for A7rM and A7rII
Steve Spencer wrote:
Rumour has it that there will be a 18mm Batis coming next year. Then you might want to get rid of your VC 15 too. Everyone has different priorities. Me, I still like alt glass and the rendering styles it provides, but I understand when people want native lenses too--I better understand because that is what my wife wants. She is much more tolerant of my alt glass wants if she can get her native lenses
I know its weird at one time I looked in my Canon bag this is years ago and i had ten Leica lenses in it and no Canon. Than I said screw it and bought a Leica DMR. Than moved on to M for awhile than sold all that and went MF. I feel like a train wreck at this point.
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(my setup today)