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Archive 2015 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...

  
 
uhoh7
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p.29 #1 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


suteetat wrote:
I think they all can produce perfectly good files but they all have their own advantage and disadvantage. Luckily for now, I am able to keep them all so I just use whatever that suit the task best or whatever my mood strikes me.


How would you compare working with the RAWS, D810 vs SL vs A7r2?



Nov 29, 2015 at 01:34 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.29 #2 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Sounds like the EVF is pretty awesome in the SL. I still prefer OVF but things may now be getting a bit closer as far as performance goes. Thanks for the updates guys!


Nov 29, 2015 at 02:00 PM
Goodrich
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p.29 #3 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


To SL, or not to SL, that is the question:

For architectural / landscape photography, I have been pleased with the M240 and have also used my M lenses with the Sony A7r II. I have been fairly pleased with both cameras, but the Sony has fewer limitations.

For the M240: works well with light M lenses. (This is a big plus: fantastic gear that sits at home is no use, obv.) GPS with grip (which adds to weight)

Against: liveview for wide angle lenses is OK for framing, but can focuses only centrally. Rangefinder not a great solution for 28mm+ lenses, if you wear glasses, as I do.

Sony A7r II: light body, IBIS, tiltable screen, 42Mpx, high resolution and dynamic range sensor. A few good AF lenses available (Zeiss Batis, 55mm f1.8) and some v light ones that have curates egg properties (28mm f2, 35mm f2.8).

Disadvantages: some wider angle M lenses play badly with the sensor, no GPS, Lightroom lens correction needs to be applied manually.

Now comes the SL:

It's key selling point for my purposes:
- making the most of light M lenses,
- EVF allows focusing as well as a rangefinder without any further assistance and better, if using the enlargement options are used.
- has GPS
- exif data transmission allows auto lens profile correction in Lightroom
- better shooting experience that the Sony, allegedly?

Disadvantages relative to the M240 and A7r II:
- heavy (although the gap narrows if the grip is used on the M240);
- sensor not as capable as the A7rII (if better than the M240);
- lack of IBIS narrows the shooting envelope further;
- expensive for a digital body with a half life of 2 years
- limited eco-system, so AF capabilities wasted (this and the price is going to keep the pros, who will need at least 2 bodies, at bay)

Have I missed anything?

Should I stick with what I have, or sell the M240 for the SL?



Nov 29, 2015 at 02:01 PM
hiepphotog
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p.29 #4 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Goodrich wrote:
To SL, or not to SL, that is the question:

For architectural / landscape photography, I have been pleased with the M240 and have also used my M lenses with the Sony A7r II. I have been fairly pleased with both cameras, but the Sony has fewer limitations.

For the M240: works well with light M lenses. (This is a big plus: fantastic gear that sits at home is no use, obv.) GPS with grip (which adds to weight)

Against: liveview for wide angle lenses is OK for framing, but can focuses only centrally. Rangefinder not a great solution for 28mm+ lenses, if
...Show more

Look like you might want to wait until the next M to make your decision. All the advantages you listed might as well come with the new M plus you have an excellent RF OVF and possibly lighter and smaller body.

I feel that the AF on the SL would get dated soon, and the ginormous lenses don't help. Stick with the Sony ecosystem for a more mature AF platform and the next M for all your M needs.



Nov 29, 2015 at 02:09 PM
flash
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p.29 #5 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Goodrich wrote:
To SL, or not to SL, that is the question:

For architectural / landscape photography, I have been pleased with the M240 and have also used my M lenses with the Sony A7r II. I have been fairly pleased with both cameras, but the Sony has fewer limitations.

For the M240: works well with light M lenses. (This is a big plus: fantastic gear that sits at home is no use, obv.) GPS with grip (which adds to weight)

Against: liveview for wide angle lenses is OK for framing, but can focuses only centrally. Rangefinder not a great solution for 28mm+ lenses, if
...Show more

For landscapes the SL can do true long exposures up to 30 minutes vs 1 minutes for the M240 (which decreases to 8 seconds at high ISO). The EVF in the M tilts which is a huge benefit for me, when shooting interiors. The spirit levels in the M and SL are far better than the Sony's implementation which seems to have a huge margin for error. The SL has two card slots for backup and redundancy. The SL has the quietest shutter (not including the silent shutter option of the A7R2 which is useful some of the time).

The SL is within 40 grams of the M with grip and EVF. The M will actually weigh more if you have the flash adaptor plugged into the MF grip. OTOH you'll need a t to M adaptor which is about 80 grams on the SL. It's a wash.

For landscapes I'll be using my A7R2. It's the most capable camera of the lot and a LOT lighter to drag up a hill. Getting GPS data is relatively simple from a dedicated device, GPS watch or even your phone. For interiors I tend to prefer the M240 because the EVF tilts and I use a tripod so that's super handy. I might change that once the new CV lenses arrive next year. However for interiors I do find the accurate spirit level in the M (and SL) to be incredibly useful.

Gordon



Nov 29, 2015 at 02:52 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.29 #6 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Goodrich wrote:
To SL, or not to SL, that is the question:

For architectural / landscape photography, I have been pleased with the M240 and have also used my M lenses with the Sony A7r II. I have been fairly pleased with both cameras, but the Sony has fewer limitations.

For the M240: works well with light M lenses. (This is a big plus: fantastic gear that sits at home is no use, obv.) GPS with grip (which adds to weight)

Against: liveview for wide angle lenses is OK for framing, but can focuses only centrally. Rangefinder not a great solution for 28mm+ lenses, if
...Show more

You certainly have a good kit, but I think you should consider these issues.

1) Do you plan to use two camera? If you are planning to keep an A7 series body and a Leica body the decision is very different than if you plan to keep just one body. Personally, I think an A7 series body with the SL vs. an A7 series body with the M240 or next M, turns into a question of the SL vs. M240 or the next M and how they complement the an A7 series body. I think a lot of that dependents on what glass you want to shoot. If you want to shoot some longer and heavier glass the SL has a distinct advantage. For example, in my case I know I would like the Leica S 120 f/2.5 Macro. Being able to shoot that on the SL is a big plus for the SL. I also plan to shoot some of the Zeiss Otus lenses and I am pretty sure I will prefer using those on the SL to the A7r II or an M240 or the next M. If you only plan to shoot E mount glass and short M mount glass then the M camera makes a lot more sense.

2) Do you prefer an EVF or an OVF with rangefinder? It sounds like as a fellow glasses user you don't find the rangefinder that easy to use. I know I feel the same way, but to be fair I haven't put in enough practice. For those who love the rangefinder, however, there will probably never be a substitute for the M.

3)What is your budget? If you have a limited budget, then I think the A7 series is a fair better value, but perhaps not quite as much at it would seem at first blush. If I compare an A7r II to an SL, then I am pretty sure I would have different upgrade cycles. With the Sony A7 series, I would anticipate upgrading every 2 years. With the SL, I would upgrade every three years at the most--I doubt Leica will produce cameras any faster than that. If you figure a 50% depreciation over the upgrade cycle for both cameras, then then A7r II is about $67 a month, whereas the SL is about $104 a month. If the Leica holds its value a bit better than the Sony, which it might, then the cost would be even closer. For example, if you adopted a 4 year upgrade cycle for the SL and it only lost half its value in that time, then the cost would be just $78 a month, which starts to get pretty close to the Sony.

But all of that is moot if you plan to keep both a Sony A7 series and a Leica body. I think if you are keeping two cameras and deciding which Leica body to keep the cost isn't a big issue.

4) How important is size (i.e., does size matter? ?) This not only depends on the two bodies vs one question but if you are using two bodies how you plan to do so. If you have two bodies and are happy taking just one for times when you want small size, then having the A7 series body makes the size issue less important. The size difference between an M camera and the SL also isn't that great, but if you would always or often carry the two bodies then I can see why it would matter.

Personally, I plan to get the A7r II for my wife with a nice set of AF lenses and a few of the Loxia lenses, and an SL for me with a nice set of M lenses, a few R lenses, the S 120 Macro, and a few Milvus and Otus lenses. I think the two cameras will complement each other well and I think the SL in my case will complement the A7r II better than an M body would, but these decisions are likely to vary by individual.



Nov 29, 2015 at 02:53 PM
Joel Cahane
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p.29 #7 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


" I also plan to shoot some of the Zeiss Otus lenses and I am pretty sure I will prefer using those on the SL to the A7r II or an M240 or the next M. "

I share the same interrogations, may i ask why you would choose the Leica SL and not the A7rII for Otus lenses ?
I was about to choose the Sony for two reasons, ibis and sensor resolution.



Nov 29, 2015 at 03:08 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.29 #8 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Joel Cahane wrote:
" I also plan to shoot some of the Zeiss Otus lenses and I am pretty sure I will prefer using those on the SL to the A7r II or an M240 or the next M. "

I share the same interrogations, may i ask why you would choose the Leica SL and not the A7rII for Otus lenses ?
I was about to choose the Sony for two reasons, ibis and sensor resolution.


Sure it is about ergonomics and EVF. I find that even the Zeiss ZE lenses are very large on a Sony A7 series body and I would find the A7r II just too small for something like the Otus 28. In addition, the Leica SL has a noticeably better EVF than the Sony A7r II and the Otus lenses require very careful focussing. I think that will be easier with the SL. Those two factors together means I will choose to shoot them on the SL unless I know I am planning to print larger enough for the extra resolution of the A7r II to matter.

I do think the sensor and the IBIS are good reasons to pick the A7r II, but for Otus lenses, for me, the ergonomics and ease of focussing of the SL will win out.



Nov 29, 2015 at 03:21 PM
uhoh7
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p.29 #9 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Goodrich wrote:
Should I stick with what I have, or sell the M240 for the SL?


Sounds like you are very used to the M240, and of course it does not always need the grip etc. I.E. you have the option to trim down to a footprint which is the same as the A7r2, when you consider the size of the natives.

For the performance you are used to, you will need to go all native with the Sony and take care with copy variation. Ming tried 6 copies of the FE 55/1.8 before he was happy. The exception here would be Otus lenses, which are huge and expensive.

You might love the SL, but to sell the 240 before you really put that camera through it's paces might be risky. Of course, it's easy to find another M240 for 3800 today.

The other option, cheaper than SL, and perhaps offering the highest performance overall for your work: buy the A7r2 and have the Kolari mod (500USD), after which there is every chance it will shoot your M lenses superbly at 42mp And you could keep the 240, all for not much more than the SL body alone, once you factor in 240 resale etc.

I better be quiet, or I will talk myself into something I would be in heaven with three bodies: M9, A7s.mod and A7r2.mod

If you do switch, I hope you keep us posted on the experience.



Nov 29, 2015 at 03:43 PM
Goodrich
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p.29 #10 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Thanks for the responses. Good questions / points to consider.

I'm not wedded to rangefinder focusing, not least because from 28mm down I need to use liveview / evf as I cannot see the corners in the rangefinder window.

I expect the M240 successor to be like the M240, with better sensor and faster processor, but otherwise similar, so don't think that it will change much.

Size and bulk do matter, which is really why I am pausing over the SL. If I went with the SL, I'd normally run with it and a few M lenses. If I needed AF specifically, I'd take the Sony, mainly with native lenses, but taking advantage of specialty M lenses for particular purposes (such as the 15mm Voigtlander).

I don't think that the Kolari is available in Europe and it seems to degrade native lens performance, so it's not a viable option for me, I think. Pity.

I suppose that the (non-financial) decision boils down to is whether the SL's extra bulk is worth the better framing / focusing experience with wider M lenses. Hmmm....



Nov 29, 2015 at 06:11 PM
Mitch Alland
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p.29 #11 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


adamdewilde wrote:
So far I'm not a fan of the SL + zoom...


Adam, what don't you like about the 24-90 lens: the weight, the rendering, or do you have a general preference for primes? Kristian Dowling writes on his blog that "the output from this lens is so good it has to be the best 35mm format zoom lens I’ve ever used - period. That’s a big call I know, but it’s true" and that he hasn't "encountered any issues in regards to chromatic aberrations, fringing, flare or colour issues".

As I indicated earlier in this thread, my possible interest in the SL is only for the 90-280 zoom — and that's predicated on it being a stellar lens — shall we say along the lines of the cult APO Telyt-R 280/4, but that may be asking for too much. On the other hand, the 90-280 would be more attractive to me if there was a 1.4x tele-extender for it that would well, the way the Leica TC14 works with the APO 280/4, as I would use this lens on an African safari — and sell it if I were to go to Africa only one more time.

Otherwise, I'm happy with my M9-P (that just had the corroded sensor replaced) and my M-Monochrom) that needs a sensor replacement for the second time).



Nov 29, 2015 at 08:28 PM
adamdewilde
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p.29 #12 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


SL bad things:

1) IQ flaws, hard for me to explain. Hopefully fixed with firmware. Affects jpg files more so then raw files. Never see this on the S or M240. Similar inferior look to early A7 files. Kind of like the color tones are seen in steps. Happens mostly with brighter/almost blown out areas of the frame. I'd post samples, but I don't have M240 vs SL files to show the differences.. So I think samples would be meaningless as I don't want people to say that ALL cameras would do what the SL is doing.
I've shot enough with these cameras to know this is strictly a Sony and SL thing :P

2) 1600 ISO and beyond has very annoying sandpaper texture. It holds well all the way up to 25000 ISO, but still I don't like how the texture creeps in so early on. Was hoping to see that texture at 6400 and above, not at 1600

3) Terrible battery life. No spare batteries for sale (so angry about this BTW, the Q was amazing w/batteries).

4) Zoom isn't Leica-esq in my opinion. Some people say it is.. I don't see it.

5) The SL/M adapter has a flaw. When you first turn on the camera. Or first mount a lens. The first frame goes black afterwards. I'm guessing the camera is trying to figure out what lens you have on. It's annoying because the blackout lasts 2 seconds or so. This really shouldn't happen.

SL good things:

1) After writing to zhangyue. I gave the EVF vs OVF some thought. This morning spending about an hour playing with my D750, SL and various MF lenses. I've come to the conclusion that A) The SL feels bigger brighter then the D750 (evf/ovf). B) It's easier to focus the SL and more accurate focus, for me.
Much closer in feel the the S-system then the D750.. But still not close enough Though I would say, coming from a FF DSLR w/stock screen, you'd feel the SL w/1.4 lenses is an upgrade. But again, not as much as going from a DSLR to the S-system.

2) Mounting M lenses looks stupid, but makes the kit so much lighter, as the body isn't really that heavy. Though the lightweight M lenses don't tilt the body forward while around your neck. So you end up getting jabbed in the ribs by the EVF that protrudes out.

3) In a pinch you can use very high ISO and still get decent files. Wish the body had IBIS though


Honestly, thus far it's just a fun camera to play with.. But by no means worth the cost. And as mentioned, I'd sooner buy a used S-006 if I were looking for an IQ boost (and obviously could afford one or two S lenses to go along with the camera body). I really think other then build quality and alleged weather sealing.. The only WOW about this camera is the EVF. Hopefully firmware updates will help it along.

In my opinion, for my uses.. A lot is riding on Leica's ability to produce a killer 50mm Summilux and how fast the S-lenses will focus on the camera. If it fails at both of those, I'd feel as if I wasted a lot of money. That and Leica needs to adjust the IQ a lot in firmware (if that's even possible).




Nov 29, 2015 at 08:53 PM
hiepphotog
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p.29 #13 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


adamdewilde wrote:
SL bad things:

1) IQ flaws, hard for me to explain. Hopefully fixed with firmware. Affects jpg files more so then raw files. Never see this on the S or M240. Similar inferior look to early A7 files. Kind of like the color tones are seen in steps. Happens mostly with brighter/almost blown out areas of the frame. I'd post samples, but I don't have M240 vs SL files to show the differences.. So I think samples would be meaningless as I don't want people to say that ALL cameras would do what the SL is doing.
I've shot enough
...Show more

This is not on my radar, but I do read the thread from time to time. Thank you Adam for the mini-review. I sure hope that Lux 50 is a killer, given its size. Maybe the zooms were not designed by Karbe. If I ever get into this system, it would hinge on that Lux 50 performance as well.



Nov 29, 2015 at 09:04 PM
Mitch Alland
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p.29 #14 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Adam/iepphotog,

I can see why you would want a killer Summilux-50 if you keep the SL. But with so many stellar 50 lenses for Leica-M cameras why keep the SL for a Summilux 50mm lens? I can see it for Noctilux users because of the vagaries of rangefinder focusing at f/1.0 and f/0.95. But, otherwise, unless the SL blew the M9 or M240 away in terms of color rendition (not likely), I just don't see the rationale for an SL for shooting 50mm lenses: as Adam says the cost ain't worth it. For Leica-R telephoto lenses, probably yes — unless the IQ issues listed in Adam's review above cannot be dealt with.



Nov 29, 2015 at 09:25 PM
k-h.a.w
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p.29 #15 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


For Leica R lenses, including the 280/4, I prefer the Sony A7r2.



Nov 29, 2015 at 09:30 PM
hiepphotog
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p.29 #16 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Mitch Alland wrote:
Adam/iepphotog,

I can see why you would want a killer Summilux-50 if you keep the SL. But with so many stellar 50 lenses for Leica-M cameras why keep the SL for a Summilux 50mm lens? I can see it for Noctilux users because of the vagaries of rangefinder focusing at f/1.0 and f/0.95. But, otherwise, unless the SL blew the M9 or M240 away in terms of color rendition (not likely), I just don't see the rationale for an SL for shooting 50mm lenses: as Adam says the cost ain't worth it. For Leica-R telephoto lenses, probably yes — unless
...Show more

Well, if you're a 50 shooter, and the new Lux can deliver Otus sharpness level with Leica-esque and Autofocus, I think that would be worth it for sure. Since the native SL line-up is abysmal right now, it's normal to think of the M/R/S usage on it. But in the end, this system better has top native primes coming along for it to survive. Again, what to say that the next M wouldn't be able to do what the SL is doing right now?



Nov 29, 2015 at 09:40 PM
adamdewilde
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p.29 #17 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Mitch Alland wrote:
Adam/iepphotog,

I can see why you would want a killer Summilux-50 if you keep the SL. But with so many stellar 50 lenses for Leica-M cameras why keep the SL for a Summilux 50mm lens? I can see it for Noctilux users because of the vagaries of rangefinder focusing at f/1.0 and f/0.95. But, otherwise, unless the SL blew the M9 or M240 away in terms of color rendition (not likely), I just don't see the rationale for an SL for shooting 50mm lenses: as Adam says the cost ain't worth it. For Leica-R telephoto lenses, probably yes — unless
...Show more

I have the 50APO, 50Lux, 50Noct... But I'd still love the 50LuxL because of AF (assuming it's as good or better then the 50Lux-asph-M).

For quick/accurate auto focus I'd keep the system. I didn't mention it above because I'm so stressed about IQ issues. But the AF is amazing. WAY better then the D750. But there are odd times when the AF gets tricked for no reason whatsoever (which is why the 1Dx/D4 still have the advantage). Still even with that, the AF in the SL is fantastic and lighting quick. In fact, it takes the photo and you're left scratching your head as to why it didn't AF, but when you look at the image, it's in focus. I think in ideal situations, the AF is the fastest I've used in any camera. PLEASE note I said IDEAL SITUATIONS.



Nov 29, 2015 at 09:42 PM
adamdewilde
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p.29 #18 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


hiepphotog wrote:
Well, if you're a 50 shooter, and the new Lux can deliver Otus sharpness level with Leica-esque and Autofocus, I think that would be worth it for sure. Since the native SL line-up is abysmal right now, it's normal to think of the M/R/S usage on it. But in the end, this system better has top native primes coming along for it to survive. Again, what to say that the next M wouldn't be able to do what the SL is doing right now?


I agree that the next M will be EVF capable. BUT I don't think it'll come soon. And I don't think it'll have the same sensor. I have a feeling they're working on something new for the M. They have to be..



Nov 29, 2015 at 09:43 PM
Mitch Alland
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p.29 #19 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Adam, you're right that Leica has to be working on something new for the M — the M240 wasn't the success for them that the M9 was...

BTW, are you still selling your Summilux-21? It's a lens I've been agonizing over.



Nov 29, 2015 at 09:55 PM
adamdewilde
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p.29 #20 · Leica SL images and specs. Looks somehow familiar...


Mitch Alland wrote:
Adam, you're right that Leica has to be working on something new for the M — the M240 wasn't the success for them that the M9 was...

BTW, are you still selling your Summilux-21? It's a lens I've been agonizing over.



Yes, I'm minimising my M kit. This first step includes selling off lenses I have duplicates of, for whatever reason.

I have two 21Lux lenses, two 50APO lenses left. My other duplicates have sold. A bunch of actual M lenses (single copies) that I'd also consider selling but haven't fully listed yet.
I'm minimising my M kit due in large to the S-system. But I'm still maintaining a small 2-3 lens M kit (haven't decided what lenses to keep though).

Leaning towards keeping 21Lux, 35FLE, 50APO, 75APO (see already that's 4 lenses). But I'm still unsure since the S-counterparts are so compelling I would rarely use the Ms (unless I needed speed or light weight). Although shooting weddings with an M is a rewarding and unique experience, it makes up for little of my income to want a FULL M kit.

For instance, the 35FLE is great, but the 45S is better (though slower by two stops!)
The 75APO is AMAZING, but the 100S is better.
The 50APO has no equal, but I'm hopeful for the 50LuxL.
The 21Lux has no equal if you're considering speed.. But I dare not buy a 24S, because I rarely shoot wide, and don't want to fall in love with it since I like the 21Lux so much (mainly for the speed/night shooting).. And oddly, I feel the 21Lux and 35FLE looks better on the SL then on the M240 (at 50iso and when the IQ issues aren't cropping up). The 50Lux is also a heck of a lot easier to use on the SL, even though I'm quite skilled with an RF camera.


EDIT: Lots of work, but hoping I can get out and shoot with the SL and M lenses a bit more this week. Hopefully shoot some stuff worth posting.



Nov 29, 2015 at 10:12 PM
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