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Archive 2015 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii

  
 
kwalsh
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p.7 #1 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


freaklikeme wrote:
Haven't all of the mirrorless camera makers struggled with AF? It seems like it's only been in the past year or so that people have moved their feelings on that function from "poor" to "usable" across all of the manufacturers.


Actually this is one department in which m43 has been ahead of the curve with excellent single shot AF for a number of years now and steadily improving tracking AF. So I'd say m43 hasn't been struggling for awhile now.

Fortunately it now seems the other manufacturers are closing the gap and starting to achieve quite good AF themselves, as you say in the past year it seems like Fuji and Sony have really improved their game. At the same time the newer m43 bodies have been making impressive progress in tracking AF - though still not what someone would chose for BIF or sports I don't think



Sep 15, 2015 at 05:54 PM
Douglas L
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p.7 #2 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


Matt Grum wrote:
Does anyone other than Nikon offer completely uncompressed RAW files? I'm hoping Sony do implement packing even if it's slower...


My Nikon D810 has the "uncompressed" option, no idea if it's completely uncompressed...



Sep 15, 2015 at 06:05 PM
rattymouse
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p.7 #3 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


Jman13 wrote:
Yes, autofocus on the X-Pro was abysmal at launch. But the X-T1's most definitely was not, and since that's what I'm talking about, let's not rest on laurels of a camera that's over 3 years old. Considering you have essentially zero experience with any recent Fuji body, I find it ironic that you're lecturing others here. Especially since you really don't have experience with any of these bodies, aside from perhaps some handling in a camera store.


I'm not lecturing others, I am posting my views on a camera forum.

I've shot with the X-T1 with original firmware and I found it's autofocus to be laughably bad. Much better than the X Pro 1, but still easily trashed by even an entry level SLR. Fujifilm advertised that camera with some stupid "world's fastest" nonsense and after using that camera for a half day came back thinking how desperate they must be to live down their well earned reputation for poor autofocusing cameras.

That Fujifilm needs to continually update their firmware to improve autofocus speaks very well to their lack of ability here.




Sep 15, 2015 at 06:16 PM
justruss
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p.7 #4 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


alundeb wrote:
But I don't want donuts

Seriously, there are likely some minor tweaks and language spelling mistake fixes, but not likely long exposure improvement. And any FM poster that I will meet IRL, I will be happy to have a coffe and whatever with


Happy to have a drink in Munich... but as a former inhabitant of both NYC and SF, and currently rounding out a trip to Vietnam... I'd say the coffee in Munich mostly isn't worth drinking. Our beer is quaffable.



Sep 15, 2015 at 07:27 PM
DavidBM
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p.7 #5 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


Romain wrote:
I'm not sure I would describe that kind of travel as "difficult trip". Also, from what I've read around Zeiss will announce other products soon. I would be surprised if they were not shown there, but are still under embargo.
Maybe Zeiss showed them various products, some with Canon mount, some with Nikon mount and some with E mount and they wanted a camera with which they could use them all. Hence the A7rII.



Indeed. That was part of my point. These guys were for a long time saying it's not worth having something a bit smaller given the tradeoffs, and then for a very routine international journey (I'm in Australia so I may have a slightly unusual idea of what's routine) they take the A7rII...When the rubber hits the tarmac they discover it is worth it.



Sep 15, 2015 at 07:32 PM
DavidBM
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p.7 #6 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


Matt Grum wrote:
It's not a particularly compelling reason, Canon have never offered an uncompressed RAW option, and in 8 years of shooting lossless compressed TIFF based RAW files, and probably half a million frames, I've not had a single one of them be corrupted in this way.


I've had a couple of Canon RAWs just die on my hard disc, but that's over a decade and lot of files. I agree it's not compelling, just interesting if true.

Another question I have, though, is what the tradeoff between size and read time is. Compressed TIFFs read more slowly than uncompressed ones. But that's noticable with huge files in photoshop. I wonder if it'd be noticeable with the RAW files?



Sep 15, 2015 at 07:34 PM
johnctharp
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p.7 #7 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


DavidBM wrote:
Another question I have, though, is what the tradeoff between size and read time is. Compressed TIFFs read more slowly than uncompressed ones. But that's noticable with huge files in photoshop. I wonder if it'd be noticeable with the RAW files?


It really shouldn't be. Even single spinning disks (excepting the 5400RPM 2.5" drives in laptops) are hitting 150MB/s+ read speeds these days, and CPUs are good at decompressing files with relatively simple ZIP or similar compression schemes.




Sep 15, 2015 at 07:40 PM
hiepphotog
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p.7 #8 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


darbo wrote:
All these months some have been clamoring for "uncompressed" raw, and I thought that was crazy. The issue should have always been about lossy raw vs lossless raw (both compressed). Now it seems that Sony listened to the not-so-bright voices, if indeed they serve up an uncompressed raw file. I too hope they pack it down.


I do wonder if it's easy to program stuff in the Bionz chip, should this uncompressed raw be released months ago? The chip might not be a flexible as we might think so a lossy compression might not be possible. It seems like they didn't realize people would find any problem with their lossy compression, just like they didn't realize that E-mount would be as successful as they are today and hence they designed the mount and the sensor spec as it is today. Things would be more rosy for Sony if they widen the mount size and going for thinner sensor stack. Both would enable smaller but high quality lens. As the system gets more popular, more fatal flaws will be found that they have to work around.



Sep 15, 2015 at 07:42 PM
TheEmrys
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p.7 #9 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


It may have more to do with the programs opening the files. And I don't have much faith in Adobe. The cRAWs already take forever. No compression could be quicker. Too bad they just don't use the system they had on the a900.

johnctharp wrote:
It really shouldn't be. Even single spinning disks (excepting the 5400RPM 2.5" drives in laptops) are hitting 150MB/s+ read speeds these days, and CPUs are good at decompressing files with relatively simple ZIP or similar compression schemes.





Sep 15, 2015 at 07:50 PM
Spyro P.
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p.7 #10 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


Fuji released a camera that a lot of people bought. Good camera or bad camera, better than the competition, worse than the competition, it doesn't matter because the fact is that those people bought it for whatever reason. Done, sold, cash collected. Fuji could easily make a lot of those people buy it again (XT2 now with improved AF! etc) but instead they chose to give a free upgrade. And those people are therefore happy and $1.2k less poor. Not sure what's so hard to understand.

Back on topic: well done to Sony, once again, they're on a roll
Hopefully it will put some added pressure to the giants



Sep 15, 2015 at 08:31 PM
GMPhotography
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p.7 #11 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


Not a engineer but I do have a thought. To compress a Raw file that would take processing power to actual complete that task. If you shot a bigger file that is uncompressed than its just pushing the raw data without compressing it. I wonder and we are assuming that the uncompressed raw will tax the system let's say but what if the opposite is true, it's not taxing the system any harder because it does not have to go through the compression routine. Just thinking out loud.

If I remember correctly I think the D800E had uncompressed and I don't remember it slowing. Hard to remember this though so could be wrong.



Sep 15, 2015 at 08:35 PM
Paul Mo
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p.7 #12 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


uhoh7 wrote:
Their RAW quality has been a scandal from the beginning. What's next: "normal batteries"?


One can only hope.



Sep 15, 2015 at 09:00 PM
cputeq
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p.7 #13 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


freaklikeme wrote:
Haven't all of the mirrorless camera makers struggled with AF? It seems like it's only been in the past year or so that people have moved their feelings on that function from "poor" to "usable" across all of the manufacturers.


Single-shot AF has been better on mirrorless for quite a while (aka Panasonic and Olympus have been fast for years). Even my crusty GX1 could pretty much meet or beat any DSLR I've ever used (including D800 and 5D3) in single-shot, unless I had mounted a really slow lens on the GX1.

No god-forsaken micro-afing, just see it and shoot it. Eye detect makes it even more awesome.

Now AF-C, that's a different story, but mirrorless is catching up -- very quickly.




Edited on Sep 15, 2015 at 09:07 PM · View previous versions



Sep 15, 2015 at 09:06 PM
nehemiahphoto
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p.7 #14 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


I wonder practically, beyond improvement of posterization effects and tonal transition in high contrast areas if we'll see much improvement in terms of pure IQ. I would love a bit more, between a half stop and stop, of highlight room, but we'll see. Anyone have any rational based idea?


Sep 15, 2015 at 09:06 PM
justruss
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p.7 #15 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


GMPhotography wrote:
Not a engineer but I do have a thought. To compress a Raw file that would take processing power to actual complete that task. If you shot a bigger file that is uncompressed than its just pushing the raw data without compressing it. I wonder and we are assuming that the uncompressed raw will tax the system let's say but what if the opposite is true, it's not taxing the system any harder because it does not have to go through the compression routine. Just thinking out loud.

If I remember correctly I think the D800E had uncompressed and I
...Show more

Oh, I think most people would assume the uncompressed RAW will-- for most things-- run more quickly. I would think a 50% increase in I/O volume is a lot easier to deal with than open/render/close a compressed RAW.

For instance, I have a powerful computer (4.2 Ghz, 6-cores, 12-logical threads) and in both Aperture and LR 6.1 my Canon 5D2 files open/render/close far more quickly than my Fuji X-E1 files. The files are about the same size in RAW, but the demosaic process is, I assume, so more computationally demanding re bayer vs. xtrans. And keep in mind the 5D2 files come from a sensor that has ~50% more pixels.

My guess is that transfer might be a little slower with an 80 MB A7rII uncompressed file compared to a 40 MB (or whatever it is) lossy compressed file... but everything else might be faster. Like on screen rendering of previews. A lossless RAW file would probably be the slowest of all for such things.

If this significantly speeds up the process of zooming during chimping (which is truly glacial, and somewhat astounding) on the A7rII, it would be a pleasant knock-on effect. On the other hand, too bad Sony didn't put USB 3/3.1 in this thing.

Then I'd need one more fix: PLEASE, don't give me a warning that my PAL camera is set to NTSC every damn time I turn the thing on. Like most people who change the format... it's something I did the first time I formatted the SD card, and it's something I have no intention of ever reversing. In the meantime, I don't enjoy the little pop up on my screen when I try to turn the camera on and take a quick shot since it means going in blind or an extra mash on the shutter.



Sep 15, 2015 at 09:48 PM
kwalsh
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p.7 #16 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


nehemiahphoto wrote:
I wonder practically, beyond improvement of posterization effects and tonal transition in high contrast areas if we'll see much improvement in terms of pure IQ.


No, there will be no improvement beyond the reduction of artifacts in extreme microcontrast (e.g. star trails, bright signs) or unusual uniform color situations (the rare but real posterization issue).


I would love a bit more, between a half stop and stop, of highlight room, but we'll see. Anyone have any rational based idea?


Nope, that's not limited by the current compression at all - it is all at the limits of the sensor. So for 99% of photography, even very high dynamic range photography, this update will not change IQ at all. For the 1% of cases described above that were affected by the lossy algorithm used the artifacts will disappear, but for everyone else there will be the same dynamic range and highlight room available as before.



Sep 15, 2015 at 10:25 PM
Paul Mo
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p.7 #17 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


I want it all even if I can't see it.


Sep 15, 2015 at 10:33 PM
justruss
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p.7 #18 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


nehemiahphoto wrote:
I wonder practically, beyond improvement of posterization effects and tonal transition in high contrast areas if we'll see much improvement in terms of pure IQ. I would love a bit more, between a half stop and stop, of highlight room, but we'll see. Anyone have any rational based idea?


I predict very, very little change-- and some of the louder voices calling for uncompressed RAW to try the new option and then quietly return to shooting lossy, compressed RAW.

I have Sony (A7rII), Canon (5D2), Fuji (X-E1), all using native and adapted lenses. They ALL have strengths and weaknesses both as cameras/systems, and from the position of the company interaction with customers. All three have fanboys and haters-- who happen to think that X, Y, or Z company is unique in its followers/detractors/actions. Some are in this thread. It's hilarious, if distracting.

I think the reason Sony has so much more market share is that it has stayed at the vanguard of going for IQ above all else in a smallish package. The jump to FF, and the rapid evolution of sensors/designs has paid dividends-- despite all the nonsense about buyers who get upset when something new comes out in 6 months to a year. Fuji, on the other hand, has a great little system that is less competitive because it has stuck with APS-C and 16mp for so many bodies. Remember it was priced and positioned as a premium, high IQ system... but as image quality has not changed since the very first X-Pro 1 (or slid a hair, if you shoot high ISO jpg), its still considerably high IQ occupies a different position in the range of IQ and resolution. Yes, 16 MP is enough for many uses and most users, but it's still competing in a world of 24, 36, 42, and 50 MP FF sensors.

There is no comparison between my 16 MP Fuji X-E1 and my 42 MP A7rII when it comes to image quality and resolution. The Fuji still produces beautiful shots with great colors and a unique look. I love the SS dial and aperture ring (and miss both on my Sony). But when it come to my work, I have always picked up the Canon first, because the detail is just past the threshold of what I'm really comfortable with-- and will now reach for the Sony, because the detail is truly mind-blowing. Perhaps Fuji will release a killer body with 24 or 28 or 32mp APS-C sensor, or give us a crazy MF body, or finally call APS-C complete (it's a damn full system of killer lenses) and create a totally new FF mount following the same strategy of prime releases at the start. I'd LOVE that.

When I put the X-E1 w/ 18mm, 35mm or 12mm lens next to the A7rII with 35mm or 28mm lenses... I've realized that the Sony is essentially the same size! It weighs more, but bulk is a bigger issue for me than weight. The only reason I see to keep the Fuji, for now, is to use that sweet 12mm Rok as a second camera, or to mount the 18mm and go skiing where I don't feel comfortable carrying $3-4K of gear on my back in avalanche terrain.

All the companies can learn from one another. All have strengths and weaknesses. I think it's great to have access to the things that work for us individually.



Sep 15, 2015 at 10:36 PM
pdmphoto
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p.7 #19 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


My Samsung cameras ran in uncompressed RAW, then compressed RAW, after a firmware update. Read/write times and buffer capacity were affected in proportion to the file size. File read/writes will take more time, and the capacity of the buffer will be diminished with uncompressed RAW files. If the files are 2x bigger they will take twice as long to read/write, and the buffer will be close to halved. On my consumer Samsung cameras, the RAW compression/decompression seemed to be near instantaneous - at least in comparison to the file read/write times.

I sure hope that Sony really means "compressed lossless" RAW files and not "uncompressed". Going from their current compact lossy files to totally uncompressed RAW files will really slow things down. Sony read/write times are already pedestrian. I'm really holding out hope that the same changes will trickle down to the A7R. Although if it is really "uncompressed", it will make for some really slow going.



Sep 15, 2015 at 10:48 PM
wayne seltzer
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p.7 #20 · Uncompressed 14 bit for A7sii and A7rii


Wonder what the new FPS will be in uncompressed mode, they never say and buffer should fill up faster with bigger files. But I guess not many users care about FPS for this camera.


Sep 15, 2015 at 11:27 PM
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