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Archive 2015 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

snapsy
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p.9 #1 · p.9 #1 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

RustyBug wrote:
Snapsy ... interesting. I would have thought many would already be bracketing like that. Funny, I get bashed for suggesting the very similar thing @ -1, +2, +5. Suddenly, you're a hero.

Oh well, maybe the light has finally come on and folks will understand much better from you than I was ever able to convey regarding bracketing. Carry on.

Although, I'm not sure why all the convoluted approach to setting your brackets is necessary.

Agree, I imagine many bracket in a similar way. Which part of the approach did you find convoluted?

Aug 20, 2015 at 10:07 PM

RustyBug
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p.9 #2 · p.9 #2 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

The use of reflective metering and EC in concert with each other and all the subsequent calculations.

If we know that ETTR is our friend for shadows, but it puts our highlights at risk a bit. Just get your ETTR exposure as you normally would and then pull back one stop for the -1. Then skip 3 and skip 3 more. Simple.

The reason for the three stop skips is that it puts your adjustments @ +/- 1.5 stop overlap (i.e. less than two stops) for push / pull. Also, the three stops represents roughly the natural difference for a proper exposure between Sunny 16 and shade/shadow side @ key vs. fill. And because we are going to bracket for more light in our shadows anyway, we really don't need to "tempt fate" with a full push all the way to ETTR.

The reason that our scene's dynamic range is so great, it is because we are trying to get an exposure for different lighting portions within the scene that have different light levels. So, in one area we might have key / fill at three stops (natural relationship), then that same fill lighting may very well be the key lighting in another area with its subsequent remnant of fill @ its shadow side.

If you don't want to go the ETTR -1 route, then you can determine your brightest incident key lighting (by meter or knowledge @ EV lighting conditions) and skip 3 and skip 3.

I understand that spot metering your brightest value with a reflective meter puts you @ middle gray, then you are adding in two stops of EC (which is 3 stops for the adjustment from reflective metering middle gray, to -1 stop for protection @ total + two stops above the spot meter to get to the same place that I'm at with ETTR -1).

I just find that incorporating camera EC calculations is an extra degree of convolution.

Hopefully, that made sense. But of course, asking me to explain things ... that always comes with an extra degree of convolution, too.

Aug 20, 2015 at 11:23 PM

snapsy
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p.9 #3 · p.9 #3 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

RustyBug wrote:
The use of reflective metering and EC in concert with each other and all the subsequent calculations.

All of the camera's metering modes use reflective metering. It's what they do with the reading that's different between the various metering modes.

RustyBug wrote:
If we know that ETTR is our friend for shadows, but it puts our highlights at risk a bit. Just get your ETTR exposure as you normally would and then pull back one stop for the -1. Then skip 3 and skip 3 more. Simple.

By dialing in my +2EV EC I can skip that second skip

It's faster that way. Plus the meter display on most cameras' LCDs only show +/- 3EV so by skipping twice I lose the feedback of where I'm metering relative to center.

RustyBug wrote:
The reason for the three stop skips is that it puts your adjustments @ +/- 1.5 stop overlap (i.e. less than two stops) for push / pull. Also, the three stops represents roughly the natural difference for a proper exposure between Sunny 16 and shade/shadow side @ key vs. fill. And because we are going to bracket for more light in our shadows anyway, we really don't need to "tempt fate" with a full push all the way to ETTR.

The reason that our scene's dynamic range is so great, it is because we are trying to get an exposure for...Show more →

Not all scenes require the bracketed coverage I use but many of the ones I shoot do.

Aug 20, 2015 at 11:44 PM

RustyBug
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p.9 #4 · p.9 #4 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

Rather than work from center, I tend to work from the end point backwards.

+1 @ more than one way to skin the cat. But, I can still do it easier than I can explain it.

Aug 20, 2015 at 11:56 PM

timballic
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p.9 #5 · p.9 #5 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

That 1:1 of shadow detail is a lovely shot in its own right Fred.

Aug 21, 2015 at 02:07 AM

Paul Gardner
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p.9 #6 · p.9 #6 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

Going back to the Metabones III, How do you get Metabones to respond to emails? Have they ever responded? Their sales BS says to contact them for firmware updates for the III but they never respond to email and there is no phone number. Its almost like I poured my money into a black hole. Shooting landscapes I can live with the slow response of the III with my Canon lenses BUT the inconsistent responses is a PITA. Do they expect us to just buy a IV to overcome their failure of the III. My personal opinion at this point is that they should be considered a scam operation and treated as such.

Aug 25, 2015 at 06:58 AM

AGeoJO
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p.9 #7 · p.9 #7 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

They responded really fast to my email when I thought I had an issue that turned out to be a cable/connection issue on my end. I know my case won't help yours but still.... BTW, you can upgrade the firmware without contacting them on their website.

Aug 25, 2015 at 07:23 AM

Paul Gardner
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p.9 #8 · p.9 #8 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

Metabones: Sorry but due to email volume, we will only reply to questions NOT already covered by the FAQ.
What a BS company. Hope someone puts them out of business soon. I will work on getting them removed from doing business in California.

Aug 25, 2015 at 07:53 AM

secondclaw
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p.9 #9 · p.9 #9 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

AGeoJO wrote:
They responded really fast to my email when I thought I had an issue that turned out to be a cable/connection issue on my end. I know my case won't help yours but still.... BTW, you can upgrade the firmware without contacting them on their website.
Only for Metabones 4. Metabones 3 requires shipping it back to them for upgrade.

I had pretty bad experience with them as well. Metabones 4 adapter I bought directly on their site was a mess. There were serious issues with it such as misaligned foot, bad lens release button, a rough lens side mount that scrapes the lens mount when I put it on, and a few others. I emailed them, and got a response that if I want they will send me replacement compression blades for the mount (the ones that hold the lens in place) but ignored completely other issues.

Aug 25, 2015 at 08:00 AM

AGeoJO
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p.9 #10 · p.9 #10 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

secondclaw wrote:
Only for Metabones 4. Metabones 3 requires shipping it back to them for upgrade.

Ah, OK. I wasn't aware of that.

Aug 25, 2015 at 08:05 AM

suchy
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p.9 #11 · p.9 #11 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

I have had really good communication with Metabones:

1) My first adapter was too tight - they responded to my emails within a few days and sent out replacement parts
2) One of my older adapters had to be sent back for a a firmware - again email communication was within a few days
3) I recently damaged a Mark IV adapter and they mailed out replacement parts at no cost

I find that they usually take a few days to respond but they are always polite and helpful. I do note that their emails usually go into junk mail and I have to fish them out.

Aug 25, 2015 at 08:38 AM

lsquare
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p.9 #12 · p.9 #12 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

This is a very long thread. What is single bracketing? I use auto exposure bracketing a lot. I don't have a Sony A7 base camera to test this out so I have to ask. If I want to shoot a 5 or 7 exposure bracketing, how do I do single bracketing so that I can shoot at 14-bit RAW? I do intend to use a wired remote to keep vibration to an absolute minimum.

Sep 14, 2015 at 01:38 AM

Gary Clennan
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p.9 #13 · p.9 #13 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

lsquare wrote:
This is a very long thread. What is single bracketing? I use auto exposure bracketing a lot. I don't have a Sony A7 base camera to test this out so I have to ask. If I want to shoot a 5 or 7 exposure bracketing, how do I do single bracketing so that I can shoot at 14-bit RAW? I do intend to use a wired remote to keep vibration to an absolute minimum.

Single Bracketing is when you have your camera set to bracketing mode but need to press the shutter release for each exposure in the series. In Auto-Bracketing, you just press the shutter once and it fires off all the exposures automatically. If you shoot in Single Bracketing mode (and don't have LENR or Bulb enabled) you will achieve 14-bit RAW output.

Sep 14, 2015 at 09:00 AM

Fred Miranda
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p.9 #14 · p.9 #14 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

Gary Clennan wrote:
Single Bracketing is when you have your camera set to bracketing mode but need to press the shutter release for each exposure in the series. In Auto-Bracketing, you just press the shutter once and it fires off all the exposures automatically. If you shoot in Single Bracketing mode (and don't have LENR or Bulb enabled) you will achieve 14-bit RAW output.

That is how it works but you can shoot at continuous bracketing and silent shutter as the drop in resolution precision (14bits to 12bits) won't matter as we are increasing DR and S/N ratio in a very big way.
This is specially true if you are ETTR bracketing using this technique:
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1383282

Sep 14, 2015 at 10:58 AM

Gary Clennan
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p.9 #15 · p.9 #15 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

Fred Miranda wrote:
That is how it works but you can shoot at continuous bracketing and silent shutter as the drop in resolution precision (14bits to 12bits) won't matter as we are increasing DR and S/N ratio in a very big way.
This is specially true if you are ETTR bracketing using this technique:
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1383282

Thanks Fred. Are you saying that shooting continuous bracketing (in silent shutter mode) has better output than in regular continuous bracketing mode? I almost always shoot exposures less than 30s and am still trying to figure out the best way to implement exposure bracketing. During my last landscape outing, I set it to single bracketing mode as I thought that this would achieve the best results. Is there a better way I could have done this?

Sep 14, 2015 at 11:21 AM

Fred Miranda
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p.9 #16 · p.9 #16 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

Gary Clennan wrote:
Thanks Fred. Are you saying that shooting continuous bracketing (in silent shutter mode) has better output than in regular continuous bracketing mode? I almost always shoot exposures less than 30s and am still trying to figure out the best way to implement exposure bracketing. During my last landscape outing, I set it to single bracketing mode as I thought that this would achieve the best results. Is there a better way I could have done this?

Both continuous bracketing and silent shutter triggers 12bits precision. So, no it's not better.
However, from my tests, the loss of precision does not matter when ETTR bracketing as we are getting a lot of data from the shadows anyways. On the above link, I outlined a very easy way to bracket for maximum data retrieval using the zebra pattern.

Sep 14, 2015 at 11:30 AM

Gary Clennan
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p.9 #17 · p.9 #17 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

So it sounds like shooting in single bracketing mode combined with ETTR will yield the best results... Thanks for the info on the Zebra technique.

Sep 14, 2015 at 10:32 PM

lsquare
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p.9 #18 · p.9 #18 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

With the latest 14-bit uncompressed option available via the latest firmware update, can the a7R II shoot 14-bit RAW with continuous AEB or I'll still have to use single bracketing mode?

Nov 18, 2015 at 05:43 AM

Jon Guilbault
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p.9 #19 · p.9 #19 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

lsquare wrote:
With the latest 14-bit uncompressed option available via the latest firmware update, can the a7R II shoot 14-bit RAW with continuous AEB or I'll still have to use single bracketing mode?

It's not a 14-bit uncompressed option. It's just uncompressed. So, no, you're still getting reduced bit rate files in all the same modes you were before.

Nov 18, 2015 at 09:52 AM

Jon Guilbault
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p.9 #20 · p.9 #20 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

Gary Clennan wrote:
So it sounds like shooting in single bracketing mode combined with ETTR will yield the best results... Thanks for the info on the Zebra technique.

Gary, because you're bracketing, the drop to 12-bit is irrelevant. You can use continuous bracketing even with silent shutter. The dynamic range you gain from bracketing buries the small loss from shooting 12-bit.

Nov 18, 2015 at 09:58 AM

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