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Archive 2015 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

GMPhotography
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

RobDickinson wrote:
Almost all my long exposures are ISO 100 or 200.

Bumping ISO to 400+ to avoid the issue just means I will be limiting either my shutter length or my dynamic range (again) by higher ISO.

Plus your adding to the noise floor. I never shoot higher than base ISO on landscape work. Of course its the same with the A7r and they look great. Not so sure I'm going to worry about this too much.

Aug 03, 2015 at 07:35 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

We can all do a test to see how noticeable this limitation is in the real world.
Mount your A7 series camera on a tripod and take a 30-second exposure at base ISO
Then take another shot in bulb mode of 30 seconds. Compare both and see if the read noise/shadow noise increase and dynamic range decrease is noticeable.

Aug 03, 2015 at 07:49 PM

goto_dengo
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

snapsy wrote:
Not sure what technical reason Sony has to switching to using 12-bits for bulb exposures. Might have something to do with DSNU or hot pixels though not sure why those would warrant 12-bit operation.

There might not even be a technical limitation; it could be laziness, or apathy. It seems like several of these issues, including lossless RAW, could be solved if they had even one serious photographer on staff who could explain these issues to the engineers. Nikon gets it; Sony doesn't. Sony needs to hire away a couple of key folks from Nikon, and these things could be understood and worked out. Maybe improve Sony's color science while they're at it.

I mean, the A7R made it out the door with several atrocious faults--light leaks, horrible, photo-affecting shutter vibrations, etc. It's almost as if they don't even test this stuff.

So with the A7RII...they're closer. They're so close. But it still feels like we're doing their research and their beta testing for them. Very tough call, but I'm gonna bail on my pre-order, and stick w/ the D810 for now.

It seems incredibly ironic that Nikon produces a level of quality from the Sony sensor, that Sony itself cannot match. How bizarre, that they can only partially realize the genius of their own sensor.

Aug 03, 2015 at 07:51 PM

goto_dengo
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

Fred Miranda wrote:
We can all do a test to see how noticeable this limitation is in the real world.
Mount your A7 series camera on a tripod and take a 30-second exposure at base ISO.
Then take another shot in bulb mode of 30 seconds. Compare both and see if the read noise/shadow noise increase and dynamic range decrease is noticeable.

Jim Kasson's already done the testing, with far more rigor than any of us could. There's no reason to think that a bulb test will show any less degradation than he demonstrated in his Continuous Mode testing, is there? Drops to 12-bit in both cases.

Time for Sony to get with the program and hire away a few Nikon engineers who have clue regarding real world, pro-level photographic requirements.

Aug 03, 2015 at 07:56 PM

mogul
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

goto_dengo wrote:
There might not even be a technical limitation; it could be laziness, or apathy. It seems like several of these issues, including lossless RAW, could be solved if they had even one serious photographer on staff who could explain these issues to the engineers. Nikon gets it; Sony doesn't. Sony needs to hire away a couple of key folks from Nikon, and these things could be understood and worked out. Maybe improve Sony's color science while they're at it.

I mean, the A7R made it out the door with several atrocious faults--light leaks, horrible, photo-affecting shutter vibrations, etc. It's almost as...Show more →
Too bad no one complains about shutter shock and mirror slap of the 800 series except DPreview

Aug 03, 2015 at 07:59 PM

goto_dengo
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

mogul wrote:
Too bad no one complains about shutter shock and mirror slap of the 800 series except DPreview

The D810 has EFCS. The D800 lacked it, and yes, Nikon screwed up. But who in their right mind buys the first generation of any product, especially when it lacks a feature considered crucial on Canon cameras for, like, years?

Aug 03, 2015 at 08:07 PM

snapsy
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

goto_dengo wrote:
There might not even be a technical limitation; it could be laziness, or apathy. It seems like several of these issues, including lossless RAW, could be solved if they had even one serious photographer on staff who could explain these issues to the engineers. Nikon gets it; Sony doesn't. Sony needs to hire away a couple of key folks from Nikon, and these things could be understood and worked out. Maybe improve Sony's color science while they're at it.

I mean, the A7R made it out the door with several atrocious faults--light leaks, horrible, photo-affecting shutter vibrations, etc. It's almost as...Show more →

I think Sony was aware of the A7r's shutter vibration when they released it. It's likely why they slowed the shutter down to 1/160 vs 1/250 on the A7 - to help offset its effects. They also would have included an EFCS if they had a 36MP sensor that supported it at the time; the D800 sensor they used on the A7r didn't.

Aug 03, 2015 at 08:08 PM

goto_dengo
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

snapsy wrote:
I think Sony was aware of the A7r's shutter vibration when they released it. It's likely why they slowed the shutter down to 1/160 vs 1/250 on the A7 - to help offset its effects. They also would have included an EFCS if they had a 36MP sensor that supported it at the time; the D800 sensor they used on the A7r didn't.

Is that meant to be a defense of Sony? Because if that's true, it's even worse--intentionally releasing a defective product into the channel, completely unfit for shots at particular focal length/shutter speed combinations, without strapping a several lb. weight to the rig. Appalling.

Aug 03, 2015 at 08:15 PM

snapsy
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

goto_dengo wrote:
Is that meant to be a defense of Sony? Because if that's true, it's even worse--intentionally releasing a defective product into the channel, completely unfit for shots at particular focal length/shutter speed combinations, without strapping a several lb. weight to the rig. Appalling.

I'm not in the brand-defending business - I just discuss technical information to the best of my knowledge and abilities. Cameras have limitations and makers do their best to work around them. If the market accepts those limitations then the product is successfull otherwise it's not. There's no morality or subterfuge at play.

Btw I'm having déjà vu with these posts - remind me of an orange peel artifact discussion from a year or two ago

Aug 03, 2015 at 08:22 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

goto_dengo wrote:
So there appears to be no way to get top notch, base-ISO noise and DR with bulb. So, bulb is basically out. The others can be avoided, but for super long exposures, there's no great answer.

Short exposure Milky Way kinds of shooting should be fine, but if I understand this correctly things aren't ideal for long exposure night photography, right?

Of course the actual effect of shooting long exposures (minutes) at base ISO may be less of a real world problem and more of a theoretical one?

Edited on Aug 03, 2015 at 09:27 PM · View previous versions

Aug 03, 2015 at 09:23 PM

Sneakyracer
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

gdanmitchell wrote:
Short exposure Milky Way kinds of shooting should be fine, but if I understand this correctly things aren't ideal for long exposure night photography, right?

Exactly.

For those who want to do ultra long exposures (minutes or more) the 5DSR seems like the best choice.

GOOD READ

Aug 03, 2015 at 09:27 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

For Astrophotography we usually combine many long exposures. All in bulb mode but using high ISO settings. I'm not sure if it would make a difference with the A7 series.
In this example shot with my EF 500mm f/4L, I stacked (5) 240s exposures, (5) 360s, (5) 180s, (5) 120s, (5) 30s, (5) 10s plus the dark and bias subs. As you can see shooting in bulb mode is mandatory. Here is the result:

Aug 03, 2015 at 09:38 PM

johntruong
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

Fred Miranda wrote:
Going back to the 12-bits reduction...
It's worth pointing out that this shortcoming was not introduced with the A7RII. It got more attention now because it's properly documented.
The shooting modes listed above affect all A7 series cameras.

Yeah, this has always been an issue with the A7 cameras. I own both the A7r and A7s and both exhibit this behavior. I have always avoided shooting in those modes.

Aug 03, 2015 at 10:14 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

Just for kicks I decided to do my own test suggestion.

So, two captures in Manual Mode, Manual Focus:

1) _DSC2559.ARW (Regular 30 second exposure at f/11, ISO 100)
2) _DSC2560.ARW (Bulb mode: 30 second exposure at f/11, ISO 100)

Focus and all other settings were identical between the shots. I used Lightroom 6.1 default sharpening and all other default values. Brought Shadows to max. (+100) and Highlights to min. (-100)

I believe the difference between the 2 files is very small. There is no advantage in dynamic range for this test even though I shot at base ISO (ISO 100). I was expecting much more noise from the Bulb capture (_DSC2560.ARW) but that was not the case. Both files looked just as clean. The only difference I could spot looking at the files at 1:1 is that the Bulb capture was a bit softer. Focus and exposure was identical for both shots.

Here are some crops....What do you think?

https://www.fredmiranda.com/Buzz/1aa.jpg

https://www.fredmiranda.com/Buzz/2aa.jpg

https://www.fredmiranda.com/Buzz/3aa.jpg

https://www.fredmiranda.com/Buzz/4aa.jpg

https://www.fredmiranda.com/Buzz/5aa.jpg

https://www.fredmiranda.com/Buzz/6aa.jpg

https://www.fredmiranda.com/Buzz/7aa.jpg

Aug 03, 2015 at 10:54 PM

snapsy
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

Fred, without pushing exposures you shouldn't see a difference in shadow noise/DR between the lower-DR 12-bit mode and the normal 14-bit mode.

Aug 03, 2015 at 10:57 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

snapsy wrote:
Fred, without pushing exposures you shouldn't see a difference in shadow noise/DR between the lower-DR 12-bit mode and the normal 14-bit mode.

I did bring the shadows to +100 though. I will push the exposure to +4 stops and post more crops.

Aug 03, 2015 at 10:59 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

Here are the crops from the same images pushed 4 stops exposure compensation:

Again, not much difference. What do you think?

https://www.fredmiranda.com/Buzz/1bb.jpg

https://www.fredmiranda.com/Buzz/2bb.jpg

https://www.fredmiranda.com/Buzz/3bb.jpg

https://www.fredmiranda.com/Buzz/4bb.jpg

https://www.fredmiranda.com/Buzz/5bb.jpg

Aug 03, 2015 at 11:08 PM

Lee Saxon
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

But wait!!! Anyone who says 11+7 isn't enough gets shouted down and called a Sony hater and a troll! How could 12 not be enough

Aug 03, 2015 at 11:10 PM

snapsy
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

I'm not seeing any difference in those. I wonder if bulb @ 30 seconds is really using 12-bits. Here's a comparison I did on the A7s between the silent shutter vs EFCS a long time ago (12 bits vs 14 bits):

http://horshack.smugmug.com/photos/i-7mBsz4w/0/O/i-7mBsz4w.jpg

Aug 03, 2015 at 11:11 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · A7RII 12-bit mode. How to avoid it.

I wondered the same thing snapsy. I'm also aware that Silent shutter vs EFCS makes a huge difference on screen. I would say close to a stop and lots of banding depending on lighting.
I'm definitely not seeing this with BULB mode. I'm glad I took the time to test this. Keep in mind that this was at base ISO which according to the article would make the most difference.

Aug 03, 2015 at 11:14 PM

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