p.8 #2 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Given the fact that the Batis line has AF, I can't imagined that there was 0 collaboration between Zeiss and Sony. Because IIRC the E-mount was loyalty-free, but not the electronic parts/communication protocols.
I see it more like this for the future:
Sony lenses (Sony design+Sony manufacturing)
Sony Zeiss lenses (Sony design in collaboration with Zeiss+Sony manufacturing)
Zeiss Batis lenses (Zeiss design+collaboration with Sony at least on electronic parts+Zeiss, or its own OEM manufacturing)
Zeiss Loxia/Otus lenses (Zeiss design+Zeiss/OEM manufacturing)
So, Sony probably knew what was coming from Zeiss, and I'd think Sony, if they are still introducing a 85mm on their own without Zeiss, it would either go lower end (sub-1000), or high-end (similar to 35mm F1.4 FE)
Apr 23, 2015 at 01:48 PM
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p.8 #3 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
naturephoto1 wrote:
Hi Steve,
As things were relayed to me from Zeiss when I spoke with them at PhotoPlus, they were designing the Loxia line operation for Video users and did not see or realize that there would be any issues for still users. So, this goes hand in hand with what you may be suggesting of a slower release of Loxia FF lenses.
With all of the FF AF lenses being released now by both Sony and Zeiss and quite likely in the future by Sigma and Tamron, it is beginning to look very frustrating for releasing relatively large lenses that have MF by wire. So, unless I decide to delve into some of these AF by Zeiss, Sony, or someone else in the future I will in most instances be happier with the smaller current and out of production Leica M, other M mount lenses and my Leica R lenses. I just hope that in the future in order to take advantage of the smaller RF WA lenses that the Sony E mount FF cameras will be able to be modified with a thin sensor stack to take advantage of the WA M mount lens performance.
I hear (on the modified camera thread) that Kolari is working on a solution to modify the sensors and keep IS functional. I hope they can do that and expect in time they will be able to do so. Personally if they make an A7R II with IBIS and Kolari can modify it that would suit me for a good many years. I could be happy for several years with just and A7 that is modified and that is of course available now. So unless Kolari can't figure out a way to modify the IBIS cameras in the next couple of years then I will probably go with mostly Leica M mount lenses with a couple Leica R mount lenses at longer focal lengths and maybe a few older film lenses too. I would have never dreamed of a kit like that even 3 years ago so I think the future prospects look great even for MF type folks like you and me.
p.8 #4 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
edwardkaraa wrote:
The G were screw driven, the motor was in the camera body.
Okay, good point - nevertheless it shows that it is possible to make small lenses with AF. Likely this AF system was not as fast as nowadays ultrasonic based systems, but it also could be adapted to nowadays newer technology. I still have a hard time to believe that the big size of those new E-mount lenses is caused by AF.....
p.8 #6 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
retrofocus wrote:
Okay, good point - nevertheless it shows that it is possible to make small lenses with AF. Likely this AF system was not as fast as nowadays ultrasonic based systems, but it also could be adapted to nowadays newer technology. I still have a hard time to believe that the big size of those new E-mount lenses is caused by AF.....
It shows it's possible to make small lenses with AF my adding a big motor to a camera body that some people already dismiss as too large (not that I agree). And more than "likely" slower, that system is WAY slower. And we have no idea what size these lenses would've been without the AF motors (though I think you could guess based on the Loxia [not as much by the ZM, since those weren't designed for the A7's sensitivity to high incidence angles]), I think it's relevant how much fatter USM Nikon 85G's are than screw-drive Nikon 85D's ( here or my previous post).
p.8 #7 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
The difficulty is that people want tracking focus that is smooth, fast,and accurate. Then comes the desire for near-perfection.... CA being the biggest issue that old lenses suffered from. Eliminating CA, in all its various forms, is not a matter for small lenses. Then there are those that harp on distortion, vignetting, sharpness in mid-zones, corners, and edges (even for portrait lenses). The 35/2.8 may be as small as we get, and it is by no means perfect. But despite the fact it is a 49mm filter thread, it is still 61x36mm. The actual glass within is incredibly narrow. And it has no image stabilization.
retrofocus wrote:
Okay, good point - nevertheless it shows that it is possible to make small lenses with AF. Likely this AF system was not as fast as nowadays ultrasonic based systems, but it also could be adapted to nowadays newer technology. I still have a hard time to believe that the big size of those new E-mount lenses is caused by AF.....
p.8 #8 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
All reminds me a bit to the unrelated discussion about image stabilization....for years people argued that IS has to be in the lens itself since camera-body based IS is less accurate etc....now see what Sony has done with IBIS! So yes, of course the Contax G lenses were not made for digital and are older designs - but I am a firm believer that smaller AF-based high IQ lenses can be made with newer technology. I wouldn't be surprised if some companies are already exploiting this route - whoever is first has the potential to make good money here.
p.8 #9 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
retrofocus wrote:
Okay, good point - nevertheless it shows that it is possible to make small lenses with AF. Likely this AF system was not as fast as nowadays ultrasonic based systems, but it also could be adapted to nowadays newer technology. I still have a hard time to believe that the big size of those new E-mount lenses is caused by AF.....
Not only was the AF motor in the Contax's camera body, but the also wasn't auto aperture on the G lenses. Add that to the fact that newer lenses have more complicated optical designs, and the size starts adding up.
p.8 #10 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
douglasf13 wrote:
Not only was the AF motor in the Contax's camera body, but the also wasn't auto aperture on the G lenses. Add that to the fact that newer lenses have more complicated optical designs, and the size starts adding up.
Look at Leica M lenses for small size and excellent optical design....so it can't be just the optical design which makes lenses bigger. And as I said above, it can't be the AF either (it might add a bit but not this tremendous increase in size).
p.8 #11 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
retrofocus wrote:
All reminds me a bit to the unrelated discussion about image stabilization....for years people argued that IS has to be in the lens itself since camera-body based IS is less accurate etc....now see what Sony has done with IBIS! So yes, of course the Contax G lenses were not made for digital and are older designs - but I am a firm believer that smaller AF-based high IQ lenses can be made with newer technology. I wouldn't be surprised if some companies are already exploiting this route - whoever is first has the potential to make good money here.
That fact that you are basically the only one here looking for ultra small AF lenses might suggest why no company has gone down that route. People who want small have m4/3 or cell phones or P&S. Most people don't seem concerned about size if it comes at the expense of quality or price.
p.8 #12 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
jctriguy wrote:
That fact that you are basically the only one here looking for ultra small AF lenses might suggest why no company has gone down that route. People who want small have m4/3 or cell phones or P&S. Most people don't seem concerned about size if it comes at the expense of quality or price.
I would love ultra small AF lenses (I don't think he's alone) but I can't see how either Zeiss or Sony would be able to do that. Heck, if Fuji comes out with an FF cam, no X-Trans, and makes small lenses like they are doing right now, I would sell my Sony gear and go there. As I see it, only Leica can consistently churn out small, fast aperture lenses. But they do have an advantage of having thinner sensor filter stack and being able to ask for astronomical price. Fuji is getting big with their lenses, but they have the potential. Too bad, Fuji is a much less successful player to venture into the FF arena. Anyway, though neither AF nor optical design for excellent IQ nor OIS is solely responsible for the bigger size of FE lenses, it's the combination of all of them together with the inexperience in miniaturizing optics, IMO, that force Sony's hands.
p.8 #13 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Smaller lenses with the same optical attributes certainly seem possible. They just require doing more with a given amount of glass: more careful selection of curvatures, more careful shaping of aspherical surfaces, more customization of glass types, and much smaller tolerances in both assembly and operation throughout the lens' lifetime. Every one of those attributes increases design and production costs, which is magnified in the retail price.
I think jctriguy has it spot on: most people would prefer smaller if it didn't mean lower quality or higher price. In practice, though, it does. The Otus lenses readily compete with their Leica M counterparts at lower price points, but at much larger sizes. On the other hand, both seem to be selling well enough for their respective companies to continue producing such lenses, so everyone's winning.
Personally, I'd love to see Zeiss come out with an FE mount camera and lens lineup that directly challenges Leica M in terms of size, quality, and cost, but which uses a modern approach to camera operation. I don't know whether they'd succeed. I almost certainly wouldn't buy one, at least not new. But I'd be very interested to see how it does in the market.
p.8 #14 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
retro, yes indeed, but these are market products and cost is always a huge factor in materials, design and manufacture. The G series had a very different back focus distance to M as well.
"The first pillar is the idea of design relaxation. A lens is considered to be under strain, when every lens element and glass surface has a major contribution to the final performance. Such a lens can only be manufactured with the most stringent of tolerances and is costly to produce.
Every deviation from the ideal surface shape or location of the lens element will significantly reduce the image quality. If we are able to spread out the correction of lens aberrations over a larger number of lens elements, we can accomplish that the contribution of every single surface or element will be reduced and a defect will have a lower impact on the overall performance."
"The second pillar is the idea of the extended design...The optical 'trick' to accomplish this is to position the entrance and exit pupil locations farther apart and farther away from the front (back) lens surfaces. The designer has to break up the middle section of the lens design: the section around the aperture stop. If we split up the lens elements around the stop in a symmetrical way, we can extend the design, but we need more elements to get the rays through the longer pipe. Today this is not a big problem with new glass types and effective coatings. The knowledge of zoom lens designs is of course quite helpful in this respect."
"Leica also tries to reduce the number of lens elements to the absolute minimum that is required to do the job."
"Excellent image quality at the maximum aperture can only be guaranteed by a meticulous standard of engineering."
- Erwin Puts commenting on the design approach of Dr. Glatzel of Zeiss.
Simple Design (small lens size) :: Very High Quality :: Affordable for most photographers
Choose any two. Like all axioms, there are blurred edges/exceptions but they exist for a reason. You pay a lot for small jewels.
p.8 #15 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
On Batis, both these newcomers are very well proportioned to the FE cameras, don't you think?
A 335 gram 25/2 and a 475 gram 85/1.8 - seem to hit the sweet spot for weight; and dimensions are not onerous either, at 81mm x 78mm and 81mm x 92mm respectively. 67mm filters are another good compromise.
For comparison, the FE 35/1.4 is 79mm x 112mm. The forthcoming 90mm Macro is 79mm x 131mm. Both are over 600 grams.
p.8 #16 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
retrofocus wrote:
Look at Leica M lenses for small size and excellent optical design....so it can't be just the optical design which makes lenses bigger.
Leica M lenses manage to stay small while having excellent optical designs..."for film" (or to a lesser extent a special sensor with an extra-thin optical stack [with even that requiring digital correction]). You can't omit that caveat. Excellent optical design "for sensors with a thicker optical stack" has additional parameters.
p.8 #17 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
JonPB wrote:
Personally, I'd love to see Zeiss come out with an FE mount camera and lens lineup that directly challenges Leica M in terms of size, quality, and cost, but which uses a modern approach to camera operation. I don't know whether they'd succeed. I almost certainly wouldn't buy one, at least not new. But I'd be very interested to see how it does in the market.
Yeah. I'm sure they'd have the sense not to just bedazzle a Sony like Hasselblad did.
They'd probably have Cosina build it, which would mean that just like ZF line it would be vastly more affordable than equivalent Leica gear with equally high quality and probably superior quality control / consistency. I could get behind that.
p.8 #18 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
Lee Saxon wrote:
Leica M lenses manage to stay small while having excellent optical designs..."for film" (or to a lesser extent a special sensor with an extra-thin optical stack [with even that requiring digital correction]). You can't omit that caveat. Excellent optical design "for sensors with a thicker optical stack" has additional parameters.
Yes, especially true for wide angle lenses even there are very feasible workarounds with current FF Sony sensors. Still this has zero to do with the need to make lenses larger - as I mentioned above in a comment, likely Sony only put in the thicker sensor glass because of just implementing one sensor type both for DSLRs and miorrorless cameras instead of having two separate ones for business reasons.
p.8 #19 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
IMO, the new Batis lineup looks great. Of course we would want size to be comparable to the Leica M's, but we are not comparing the same. The AF, and relatively light and it would appear to have been designed for the A7 and A9 bodies onwards. If size is an issue the Loxia's are great. Hopefully there will be a parallel path with the Loxia and Batis range.
I must say the pricing pleasantly surprised me, as it puts these lenses in reach of a lot of serious photographers. So much so that I have now sold my 35 Lux FLE, 50 Lux Asph and hopefully my 75 Cron APO. I am now intending to only keep a handful of the unique M lenses, rather than continually making allowances for adapters/PP'ing.
Kudos to Sony and Zeiss, as they are evolving quickly. The marketing strategy behind the scenes is now becoming more apparent, and it looks very good. Obviously Sony and Zeiss are relatively price conscious.
If weight and size is our only criteria there is a huge range of APS and 4/3 format cameras available. In reality Sony with the A7/A9 series, even being FF, have to compete with the smaller formats as they are also rapidly improving.
I am sad for Leica as I feel they will be left behind if they do not evolve and have a truly updated Leica M body comparable in the basic functionality. Leica works wonderfully in the ease of use, but the electronics, basic functions and servicing truly needs to be updated. The Leica M lenses are superb, but at a cost which pushes it beyond the scope of a lot of photographers.
I am sure Sony/Zeiss could reduce the size/weight of the lenses but would we be willing to pay 3 to 4 times the cost? In this market with too many choices I don't think so.
Retro, yes there are Leica WA's that do work well, such as the WATE. It is small and light but at 6K most people will look for alternatives even at the expense of size and weight.
p.8 #20 · Zeiss "Batis" AF lens line to be released for FF E-mount
charles.K wrote:
If weight and size is our only criteria there is a huge range of APS and 4/3 format cameras available. In reality Sony with the A7/A9 series, even being FF, have to compete with the smaller formats as they are also rapidly improving.
