p.4 #1 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
StillFingerz wrote:
It's my hope that Canon has other plans for the next 1DX, I doubt 50MP is part just yet, perhaps 24-36MP's with the same or even cleaner higher ISO with a killer rate of 14-16 FPS. Maybe their consolidation of the 1D series was a mistake and we'll see two 1D bodies, one each dedicated, designed specifically for action and non-action much like prior.1D's were.
With the introduction of these new high MP 5D bodies I doubt you will see a reversal of the unification of the 1D now. My hope is that Canon completely optimizes the 1DX2 for high ISO as that is where IQ needs the most help. If they can give us both then that would be great but I would not want any sacrifices to high ISO IQ for the sake of base ISO.
p.4 #2 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
Jim Servies wrote:
Read noise, shadow noise, noise floor, DR = log2 (saturation / noise floor), charts, graphs... Holy cow my head is spinning!
I do appreciate the effort from you guys / gals because I'm really trying to learn. And, it's obvious you guys know your stuff. However, I have a much simpler solution - just deliver my pre-ordered 5DsR asap and I can tell you guys in about an hour if it's any good or not. Yes, it's the old-fashion way by actually using it but hey... Okay, I've been wanting to say that in about ten different 5Ds threads I'm following. I feel much better now. Carry on... ...Show more →
It's not as complicated as it seems -- you're just unfamiliar with what the terms tell us about the performance of the equipment. I mean, we use technical terms all the time in photography: focal lengths, pixel counts, sensor sizes, f-ratios, exposure times, exposure values, DOF, MTF-50, etc. Many, if not most photographers, are familiar with what these terms represent in terms of how they affect the photo.
I guess it's because measures such as quantum efficiency, electronic (read) noise, and saturation are new measures to digital that those of us who are comfortable with what they are and how they relate to the photo are considered nerdy.
p.4 #3 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
ggreene wrote:
With the introduction of these new high MP 5D bodies I doubt you will see a reversal of the unification of the 1D now. My hope is that Canon completely optimizes the 1DX2 for high ISO as that is where IQ needs the most help. If they can give us both then that would be great but I would not want any sacrifices to high ISO IQ for the sake of base ISO.
Sadly, I have to agree on the 1DX unification and I can't foresee a 1DsIV either
The disappointment is softened a tad by the claimed extreme weather sealing, improved build quality, dual card slots and not least optimisation for low ISO stills photography
p.4 #4 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
FAO jctriguy - well something of a result on a thread discussing the 5DS R, IDX, it somehow reached the depths of page 3 before the PRECIOUS DR charts/graphs and general Canon negativity rocked up.
mttran wrote:
I would guess a 5D2 DR at its best. At wide DR scenes, less shadows noise and better colors are only two things I hope for this coming 5Ds/r. Here ya go:
p.4 #5 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
Jim Servies wrote:
Read noise, shadow noise, noise floor, DR = log2 (saturation / noise floor), charts, graphs... Holy cow my head is spinning!
I do appreciate the effort from you guys / gals because I'm really trying to learn. And, it's obvious you guys know your stuff. However, I have a much simpler solution - just deliver my pre-ordered 5DsR asap and I can tell you guys in about an hour if it's any good or not. Yes, it's the old-fashion way by actually using it but hey... Okay, I've been wanting to say that in about ten different 5Ds threads I'm following. I feel much better now. Carry on... ...Show more →
+1
Jim's post should be in a sticky thread 'Required reading' at the top of the Forum, IMHO
p.4 #6 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
Apologies for meeting up with "colleagues" and discussing sensors here
It is a good place to meet since I am interested in both technology and photography, but we can try to limit ourselves to a few threads
Still I think this precise technobabble is better than home-made chains of thought and misconceptions about what the real tradeoffs are in digital photography.
p.4 #7 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
alundeb wrote:
Apologies for meeting up with "colleagues" and discussing sensors here
It is a good place to meet since I am interested in both technology and photography, but we can try to limit ourselves to a few threads
Still I think this precise technobabble is better than home-made chains of thought and misconceptions about what the real tradeoffs are in digital photography.
There is hoping for the low ISO DR of the 5Ds
Science is a good thing. To observe, quantify and demonstrate repeatable behaviour is a good thing too. This thread has referenced/illustrated/linked to scores*/numbers/graphs/charts that AFAIK aren't covered by any International Standards Organisation definition or even agreed standard. Which leaves the door wide open for PSUEDO science. And then there's the visual conflict, where some sublime images have been made with gear that ranks very lowly in the scores/measured numbers and some truly woeful images made with high scoring gear, which raises some doubts on the real world relevance of scores/numbers.
So, I'm more than happy for a camera and lenses to be described by respected and competent photographers in solely adjectival words and photographs, with caveats as needed, viz. A high scoring DxO marked camera, if the haptics are poor, is a PoS for a photographer wearing gloves in cold weather.
* credit where it is due and DxO's colour response test is to ISO 17321.
p.4 #8 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
snapsy wrote:
If we presume the 5Ds has the same pixel architecture and per-pixel read noise as the 7DM2, the 5Ds's engineering ISO 100 dynamic range will be .66EV higher than the 7DM2 on a normalized sensor-area/MP basis. The 7DM2 ISO 100 DR is 11.11EV at its native resolution (the "screen" tab in DxO). We can calculate the 5Ds's DR by normalizing its 50.6MP down to the 7DM2's 20.17MP, using the following formula from DxO:
= log2(sqrt(50.6/20.17))
= log2(1.58388)
= 0.663463 EV
The DR normally quoted by others from DxO is the "print" value, which is further normalized to 8MP, using the same formula as above but sqrt(native_mp/8_mp). The 7DM2's 8MP-normalized DR is 11.78EV, which means the 5Ds's 8MP-normalized DR would be 12.44EV. By comparison, the 1DX's 8MP-normalized DR is 11.77EV....Show more →
7dmk2 and 6D lack all pattern noise and banding which earlier canon cameras shows
so 5ds will be cleaner in the shadows compare to 5dmk3, mk2 etc
I tested 6D against d810 , 6D didn't show any banding problems as my 5dmk3 ,mk2 but the much higher read out noise in 6D destroyed the details in lower levels.
12,5 stop DR in 5ds (down scaled to 8Mp) is much better than 11 stop in 5dmk2 mk3 where at least 1 stop was useless because of the read out pattern noise/banding
p.4 #12 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
Honestly, I just appreciate the common courtesy and well-mannered responses extended to my post and not talking down / insulting my lack of experience / knowledge in the extreme technical matters concerning sensors, etc. It is greatly appreciated. I've had the pleasure to deal with a couple of respondents through the buy and sell board and know they are class gentlemen.
My intent was not to complain but rather make the point I'm anxiously waiting to test and enjoy the 5DsR so I can see for myself. I truly welcome the discussion as it will help in making an informed purchasing decision. Will I claim everything as "gospel truth", no, that's on me to research and validate but it is very interesting. Maybe I missed my calling...
One man's need to stay away from read noise in long exposures is another man's need for detail or DR in "normal" exposures. Understanding "why" or "how" these things come to be or influence our choices isn't a bad thing ... particularly if your shooting tendencies are "outside the norm".
p.4 #15 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
RustyBug wrote:
+1 @ GL finding info on it.
I did find a thread which suggested it's DR is around 11.x ... about on par with contemporary MFD and Canon's latest. Not quite up to Sony's latest & greatest, but for an 11 year old camera ... how can I complain.
Better color and can't complain @ DR ... Canon hasn't given me a reason to set it down just yet. Granted, ISO / noise becomes an issue extraordinaire once you get off base ISO, but I'm used to shooting ISO 50 @ film, so 160 is "high speed" stuff for me.
We'll see what the 5DS / 5DSR brings ... it'll be interesting to see by how much it can best the SLR/C @ color & DR @ best vs. best. Granted, it will definitely be more versatile on many levels....Show more →
SLR/c vs 5Ds in DR/color department?
I think SLR/c already won in color department, DR might be slightly better, but since not even 1Ds MK3 colors were up to game, from this they wont be either.
Tho from what I saw, it will be same in one aspect, base ISO only camera.
p.4 #16 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
Mescalamba wrote:
Tho from what I saw, it will be same in one aspect, base ISO only camera.
Gee, and I was hoping you were going to talk me into a new camera.
Personally, while folks talk about Canon using a Sony sensor (like that's gonna happen) ... they COULD get in bed with Kodak. I'd love to see what ten years of sensor technology advance (i.e. noise floor, etc.) could bring in concert with Kodak's understanding of color. Even though folks like to say how far behind Canon is from Sony in the electronics department ... I guarantee you it is way ahead of 2004. Even using today's "inferior" Canon technology ... it could be a huge gain to put those two together.
p.4 #17 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
Thanks for the explanations everyone. I'm just trying to understand the sources of noise and how it affects dynamic range. Someone complained that Canon had done nothing for DR since the 1Ds3 and if I look at DxO's DR "screen" graphs that seems true. If I look at Sensorgen's DR column the 5D3 is better than the 1Ds3 and the 1DX is way better. I don't know how to interpret this data.
I've been looking at DxO data (graphs not scores) for a long time and can compare the charted data with what I see, for example, comparing my 40D with my 7D. I have a feeling for the "screen" graphs but never trusted the "print" graphs since 7D noise didn't normalize to 40D noise in my images, the 7D remained worse whereas the "print" graphs gave the edge to the 7D.
In the end I still rely more heavily on the comments of the users here, some of whom have been contributing for many years. When you follow someone's ups and downs with various camera bodies I can predict how I'll like a new camera body. Thanks for your input folks.
p.4 #18 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
Jeff Nolten wrote:
Thanks for the explanations everyone. I'm just trying to understand the sources of noise and how it affects dynamic range. Someone complained that Canon had done nothing for DR since the 1Ds3 and if I look at DxO's DR "screen" graphs that seems true. If I look at Sensorgen's DR column the 5D3 is better than the 1Ds3 and the 1DX is way better. I don't know how to interpret this data.
I've been looking at DxO data (graphs not scores) for a long time and can compare the charted data with what I see, for example, comparing my 40D with my 7D. I have a feeling for the "screen" graphs but never trusted the "print" graphs since 7D noise didn't normalize to 40D noise in my images, the 7D remained worse whereas the "print" graphs gave the edge to the 7D.
In the end I still rely more heavily on the comments of the users here, some of whom have been contributing for many years. When you follow someone's ups and downs with various camera bodies I can predict how I'll like a new camera body. Thanks for your input folks....Show more →
Hi Jeff, there was a discussion that addressed these questions here.
p.4 #19 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
Jeff Nolten wrote:
I've been looking at DxO data (graphs not scores) for a long time and can compare the charted data with what I see, for example, comparing my 40D with my 7D. I have a feeling for the "screen" graphs but never trusted the "print" graphs since 7D noise didn't normalize to 40D noise in my images, the 7D remained worse whereas the "print" graphs gave the edge to the 7D.
The story that the DxO data doesn't tell, is the strength of the AA filter or other sources of blur in the sensor filter stack. Now that the 7DII is out, everybody agrees that the 7D was not as "sharp" at the pixel level as the 7DII. When normalizing images for accurate noise evaluation, this is important to keep in mind. It is also important that the images are normalized to the same level of visual detail, otherwise you are comparing two parameters at a time.
p.4 #20 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
Jeff Nolten wrote:
If I look at Sensorgen's DR column the 5D3 is better than the 1Ds3 and the 1DX is way better. I don't know how to interpret this data.
I am not sure about what data you refer to here. sensorgen.info?
