The Fotosidian interview with Mike Burnhill (Team Leader Technical support Canon Pro imaging at Canon Europe Ltd) Shortly after the 5DS R announcement showed photographers taking images in the background, so speculating wildly, maybe a prototype 5DS R was there and someone has had the wit to compare the files with 1Dx
p.1 #2 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
If the sensor has been tuned to low ISO performance it fits it's brief and explains the low max ISO setting. I think we'll find this camera performs better than the on paper spec suggests. David Noton told me that the results need to be seen to be believed. He was one of the beta testers.
p.1 #3 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
Did he mention anything about the 5DR and 1Ds3 colour?
Bones74 wrote:
If the sensor has been tuned to low ISO performance it fits it's brief and explains the low max ISO setting. I think we'll find this camera performs better than the on paper spec suggests. David Noton told me that the results need to be seen to be believed. He was one of the beta testers.
p.1 #4 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
I wonder what definition of dynamic range Canon and Chuck Westfall use. Previously, they have announced that those new cameras would have increased dynamic range, but they didn't have increased engineering dynamic range at low ISO as we know it. Now with the 5Ds they haven't announced increased dynamic range, but signs appear (and theory suggests, even only using 7DII pixel quality) that it actually has.
p.1 #5 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
Jon Tainton wrote:
Did he mention anything about the 5DR and 1Ds3 colour?
No, he was just responding to my mild critisism of Canon's own admission of no low ISO DR improvement over the 5D3. I'm not diminshing his comments regarding the camera but I've yet to see a Canon Explorer or Ambassador who openly critisises a new product. I'll have a look at his write up again and see if there is a mention of the colours.
p.1 #6 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
Jon Tainton wrote:
Did he mention anything about the 5DR and 1Ds3 colour?
I would like to know more about that as well. I totally love my IDs3 files and there's certainly something about the files that I haven't been able to reproduce with any of the new generation models including the 1DX.
A lot can be done with custom camera profiles and post-work obviously, but the 1Ds3 put you right on track from scratch. At least according to my taste.
Hope they went back in time regarding colorbalance and palette of the 5Ds. I've heard rumours about a much steeper colorfilter which suggests "better" and/or more balanced colors. At least technically.
p.1 #7 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
alundeb wrote:
I wonder what definition of dynamic range Canon and Chuck Westfall use. Previously, they have announced that those new cameras would have increased dynamic range, but they didn't have increased engineering dynamic range at low ISO as we know it. Now with the 5Ds they haven't announced increased dynamic range, but signs appear (and theory suggests, even only using 7DII pixel quality) that it actually has.
I have been thinking the same. DR might be better than implied by Canon. :-)
What on earth does that mean in a real photography sense ?
Practically speaking, 1DX has no noise at low ISO (ISO < 800). Are they saying that 5Ds has 1.5- 2 stops better noise than no noise of 1DX ?
However, let us forget that non-sense, and let's talk about the ISO range where noise performance has significance, and which separates 1DX from the rest, i.e., ISO equal or greater than 3200. How does 5Ds perform there ?
p.1 #10 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
PetKal wrote:
Practically speaking, 1DX has no noise at low ISO (ISO < 800). Are they saying that 5Ds has 1.5- 2 stops better noise than no noise of 1DX ?
However, let us forget that non-sense, and let's talk about the ISO range where noise performance has significance, and which separates 1DX from the rest, i.e., ISO equal or greater than 3200. How does 5Ds perform there ?
They are talking about dynamic range on low ISO
5Ds is tuned for low-ISO work - I think you might find it difficult to find potential owners commenting on high ISO performance. Having that said it will of course be interesting to see.
p.1 #11 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
memoria wrote:
I would like to know more about that as well. I totally love my IDs3 files and there's certainly something about the files that I haven't been able to reproduce with any of the new generation models including the 1DX.
A lot can be done with custom camera profiles and post-work obviously, but the 1Ds3 put you right on track from scratch. At least according to my taste.
Hope they went back in time regarding colorbalance and palette of the 5Ds. I've heard rumours about a much steeper colorfilter which suggests "better" and/or more balanced colors. At least technically.
That "something" is nicely full 14-bits (if you expose right, not that Canon has many other options) and very high metamerism (color error) index. 86 under daylight, to be precise.. only Sony A900 had 87 (and its known for excellent colors).
1Ds MK3 and 1D MK3 used same CFA and were colorwise best cameras Canon ever produced. Unfortunately since then, they jumped off the cliff with color quality. Nikon did same after D700, only today D810 is somewhat comparable and quite nice.
Nothing so far matched Sony A900. Probably nothing will, cause manufacturers dont want to go banckrupt cause of one camera.
p.1 #12 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
Stoffer wrote:
I have been thinking the same. DR might be better than implied by Canon. :-)
That was my take on the Chuck Westfall interview, where he speaks about the DR (and noise) issue in some very circumspect ways. Some wanted to read that as an "admission of guilt" and that the new camera wasn't all that great in this regard.
I read it as setting the expectations to a low level until production camera specs are finalized.
PetKal wrote:
Practically speaking, 1DX has no noise at low ISO (ISO < 800). Are they saying that 5Ds has 1.5- 2 stops better noise than no noise of 1DX ?
Accurately speaking, there is no such thing as "no noise" in a digital camera. There is such a thing as very low noise, and there is such a thing as even lower noise.
"Practically speaking," both cameras might well produce noise so low that it is not an issue in many cases at all. ("Practically speaking"... "no noise" from both.) I think the point of the post here is that it is a report suggesting that the 5DS might combine very low noise and larger dynamic range than expected for photographers whose desire is to achieve this a relatively low ISO levels.
p.1 #13 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
alundeb wrote:
I wonder what definition of dynamic range Canon and Chuck Westfall use. Previously, they have announced that those new cameras would have increased dynamic range, but they didn't have increased engineering dynamic range at low ISO as we know it.
The problem is both engineering dynamic range and photographic dynamic range only take into account the magnitude of the read noise and fail to account for the character of that noise.
A big difference between what you get with a Canon sensor and a Sony Exmor is the the Canon read noise tends to be more blotchy, and prone to banding whereas the Sony is finer grained and generally less objectionable.
Unless Canon have implemented a massively parallel on sensor ADC I can't see there being a big improvement in this noise character, even if they reduce the intensity slightly.
p.1 #14 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
If it is tuned for low ISO it would explain the relatively low max ISO.
Sounds like they have gone for max performance in low ISO band and doing that has sacrificed hi ISO performance. Not really an issue though given the target audience.
With 50mp...the best glass going and 1.5-2 stops more DR at low ISO it sounds like a very solid landscape body.
p.1 #15 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
Matt Grum wrote:
The problem is both engineering dynamic range and photographic dynamic range only take into account the magnitude of the read noise and fail to account for the character of that noise.
A big difference between what you get with a Canon sensor and a Sony Exmor is the the Canon read noise tends to be more blotchy, and prone to banding whereas the Sony is finer grained and generally less objectionable.
Unless Canon have implemented a massively parallel on sensor ADC I can't see there being a big improvement in this noise character, even if they reduce the intensity slightly.
From what I've heard, the read noise character of the 7DII is much less objectionable than from the 5DIII.
According to CPN europe, the 5Ds uses the same 16 channel readout architecture as the 1DX.
p.1 #16 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
I agree, Dan, that's how I interpreted it as well: keeping expectations in check with such a long runway to the delivery of units.
This news about the sensor being tuned to low ISO is encouraging, and logically explains the lower high ISO offering. Fine with me to pull down the range. I'd love if the ISO 50 was no longer quite so high of contrast, clipping the DR as it always has. There's a lot of potential to get too excited, so I'm trying to keep a lid on!
I also agree with you about noise being always there. I can see noise at ISO 100 with my normal LR sharpening of 60-70 on RAW images. It's not terribly significant and is sometimes an asset for improved micro-contrast in low contrast areas, providing an almost invisible random texture. Other times, I'm not happy to see it, but don't want to use NR for its effect on other areas in the image. So, if pulling the noise levels down and expanding the DR at low ISO (even just a bit) is possible with the 5Ds/R, I'll be a very happy camper. I'd love to shoot ISO 200 and have it look like 100!
p.1 #17 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
PetKal wrote:
What on earth does that mean in a real photography sense ?
Practically speaking, 1DX has no noise at low ISO (ISO < 800). Are they saying that 5Ds has 1.5- 2 stops better noise than no noise of 1DX ?
However, let us forget that non-sense, and let's talk about the ISO range where noise performance has significance, and which separates 1DX from the rest, i.e., ISO equal or greater than 3200. How does 5Ds perform there ?
IF the reported test is accurate, then I guess it means in real photography the 5DSR has a better exposure latitude at LOW ISO than the 1DX, which probably means at LOW ISO you can shoot in harsher light and a reduced need to post process shadow/highlight recovery / a larger safety margin for exposure error and hopefully the tedious DR trolling will cease.
Ah, as has already been noted, the report didn't mention noise performance but 1.5-2 stops of dynamic range.
Being honest, I've little interest in how the 5DRS performs past ISO 800 and zero interest about the "ISO range where noise performance has significance" So, let us forget about that High ISO non-sense in this thread and as you are clearly passionate about it, why don't you start a separate thread topic "1DX ISO range where noise performance has significance, compared to as yet unknown 5DSR performance"?
p.1 #18 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
On the other hand: Keeping expectations so low with such a long runway on such a debated topic could be a very risky move-- letting Sony or Nikon swing in and further steal shooters.
If I was Canon, and I knew that my product could deliver even 1 stop better DR at low ISO... I'd be shouting it from the rooftops precisely so that people don't jump off the plane before it has a chance to even land.
p.1 #19 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
justruss wrote:
On the other hand: Keeping expectations so low with such a long runway on such a debated topic could be a very risky move-- letting Sony or Nikon swing in and further steal shooters.
If I was Canon, and I knew that my product could deliver even 1 stop better DR at low ISO... I'd be shouting it from the rooftops precisely so that people don't jump off the plane before it has a chance to even land.
+1
p.1 #20 · 5DSR Low ISO DR 1.5-2 stops better than 1DX ...
gdanmitchell wrote:
That was my take on the Chuck Westfall interview, where he speaks about the DR (and noise) issue in some very circumspect ways. Some wanted to read that as an "admission of guilt" and that the new camera wasn't all that great in this regard.
I read it as setting the expectations to a low level until production camera specs are finalized.
Accurately speaking, there is no such thing as "no noise" in a digital camera. There is such a thing as very low noise, and there is such a thing as even lower noise.
"Practically speaking," both cameras might well produce noise so low that it is not an issue in many cases at all. ("Practically speaking"... "no noise" from both.) I think the point of the post here is that it is a report suggesting that the 5DS might combine very low noise and larger dynamic range than expected for photographers whose desire is to achieve this a relatively low ISO levels.
Exactly right, the noise that matters to a landscape guy is the noise introduced when you push shadows 3 or more stops which is like shooting at higher ISO.
I pushed the shadows in that Canon test scene with the girl in a dark busy scene. Granted, this is just a jpg and probably has in camera NR already applied, but it took 2-3 stops pretty gracefully.
We are all just speculating, but what else can we do until June?
