thw2 wrote:
So, while I'll like to see improved base DR in Canon sensors, it's not something I need so desperately that I'll whine about it in every post.
Everyone should feel in awe - what we're seeing on the Canon fora is the evolution of a new law, similar to Godwin's law: "The probability is 1.0 that any discussion that touches on Canon products, however remote it might initially seem, will eventually degenerate into a shouting match about Canon sensors' lack of DR."
aboulenein wrote:
Everyone should feel in awe - what we're seeing on the Canon fora is the evolution of a new law, similar to Godwin's law: "The probability is 1.0 that any discussion that touches on Canon products, however remote it might initially seem, will eventually degenerate into a shouting match about Canon sensors' lack of DR."
Yours is the only message I've read in this thread — I've been in the field shooting for the past two weeks and haven't had time to follow the forum much.
But just last night, after looking at a few threads yesterday (as I am now back to sufficient civilization that I have wireless - yay!), I was thinking about this subject, and how boorish and obsessive the behavior of a certain group of forum participants has become.
My first thought was that it is as if there was a forum about beef in which a few vegans showed up and posted incessantly, daily the same response to every message about barbecue and sirloin, haranguing the folks who came to the forum because there are interested in beef. And then, being an equal access sort of guy, I realized that the same absurd, boring, obsessive behavior could also be exemplified by a beef-eating partisan who had to post about his/her obsession daily, hourly in a forum discussing vegan cooking.
The beef eaters are certainly aware of veganism, and the vegans are aware of meat eating — and both have made their respective decisions for reasons that are likely reasonable, and neither is likely to be persuaded to change by obsessive, intrusive, and incessant argument from the other side.
When it comes to the whole sensor issue, the point has been made. We all get it that current Sony/Nikon sensor represents the current state of the art in DSLR sensor design, which is not surprising in that they are a more recent development. There is nothing new to say about the issue at this point.
For the most part, as annoying as the sensor/DR obsessives have become, the best response may well be to simply ignore them and not grant them the gratification that they seem to get from the argument. I doubt that they will go away or stop, but the volume of this stuff might eventually decrease.
The "hide me" button is your friend when it comes to stuff like this. You can choose to not see the messages from the DR DRones, or you can do as I do — keep the option to manually reveal the messages if you want, but each time be reminded of your decision to not respond to them.
gdanmitchell wrote:
Yours is the only message I've read in this thread — I've been in the field shooting for the past two weeks and haven't had time to follow the forum much.
But just last night, after looking at a few threads yesterday (as I am now back to sufficient civilization that I have wireless - yay!), I was thinking about this subject, and how boorish and obsessive the behavior of a certain group of forum participants has become.
My first thought was that it is as if there was a forum about beef in which a few vegans showed up and posted incessantly, daily the same response to every message about barbecue and sirloin, haranguing the folks who came to the forum because there are interested in beef. And then, being an equal access sort of guy, I realized that the same absurd, boring, obsessive behavior could also be exemplified by a beef-eating partisan who had to post about his/her obsession daily, hourly in a forum discussing vegan cooking.
When it comes to the whole sensor issue, the point has been made. We all get it that current Sony/Nikon sensor represent the current state of the art in DSLR sensor design, which is not surprising in that they are a more recent development. There is nothing new to say about the issue at this point.
For the most part, as annoying as the sensor/DR obsessives have become, the best response may well be to simply ignore them and not grant them the gratification that they seem to get from the argument. I doubt that they will go away or stop, but the volume of this stuff might eventually decrease.
The "hide me" button is your friend when it comes to stuff like this. You can choose to not see the messages from the DR DRones, or you can do as I do — keep the option to manually reveal the messages if you want, but each time be reminded of your decision to not respond to them.
popinvasion wrote:
I would rather have something and not need it rather than need something and not have it... Know what I mean?
In that case, in this moment in time, you might be better off unloading your Canon gear and getting a Nikon D810 or Sony a7R, or both.
Those of us doing well with the current Canon line-up and waiting for the next releases will continue being as patient as possible, knowing the wheel will eventually turn again. As dh says, we're making money with our gear and getting excellent images.
I suppose it is a matter of perspective: I'm so grateful for the current state of digital imaging, even excluding the sensor improvements by Sony, compared to where I've come from in the 35mm and large format Film Era. Between the digital FF cameras and PP in LR, things are so much better for me.
To each his own. But after someone's posted a few times about the wonders of the Sony sensor (I like Fred's thread on the a7R images here!), and have to beat the drum from Sony or Nikon, please do so on another forum.
Sorry that I have to keep restating my position. It just seems some people don't get it.
I've said a number of times that I've considered a Nikon D800/e/810 or Sony a7 or a7R, but it just hasn't made financial sense to me, but I keep looking and evaluating. I understand the attraction. I just prefer to be patient and wait to see what Canon comes up with.
. . . and, even the 7D2 looks very interesting! Images I'm seeing, and technical points, are a big improvement over my 60D in crop department.
*************
PS -- In reviewing the matter, I don't find DR to be on the top of my wish list. In fact, for me it is down several steps from the top.
1) Canon -- Increased MP (42-50 would be nice)
2) LR -- image blending/HDR effect to add DR to specific images
3) LR -- focus stacking
4) LR -- improved compositing and panoramas
5) Canon -- Smoother tonality and reduced noise at all ISO, especially high ISO
6) Canon -- Increased DR
The bulk of my wishes center around improved PP software, making my workflow simpler and more versatile.
Gunzorro wrote:
I suppose it is a matter of perspective: I'm so grateful for the current state of digital imaging, even excluding the sensor improvements by Sony, compared to where I've come from in the 35mm and large format Film Era. Between the digital FF cameras and PP in LR, things are so much better for me.
Exactly my feelings too, my working life is so easy now I have no need to make it easier
Gunzorro wrote:
In that case, in this moment in time, you might be better off unloading your Canon gear and getting a Nikon D810 or Sony a7R, or both.
Those of us doing well with the current Canon line-up and waiting for the next releases will continue being as patient as possible, knowing the wheel will eventually turn again. As dh says, we're making money with our gear and getting excellent images.
I suppose it is a matter of perspective: I'm so grateful for the current state of digital imaging, even excluding the sensor improvements by Sony, compared to where I've come from in the 35mm and large format Film Era. Between the digital FF cameras and PP in LR, things are so much better for me.
To each his own. But after someone's posted a few times about the wonders of the Sony sensor (I like Fred's thread on the a7R images here!), and have to beat the drum from Sony or Nikon, please do so on another forum.
Sorry that I have to keep restating my position. It just seems some people don't get it.
I've said a number of times that I've considered a Nikon D800/e/810 or Sony a7 or a7R, but it just hasn't made financial sense to me, but I keep looking and evaluating. I understand the attraction. I just prefer to be patient and wait to see what Canon comes up with.
. . . and, even the 7D2 looks very interesting! Images I'm seeing, and technical points, are a big improvement over my 60D in crop department. ...Show more →
I love Canon but I'm not a brand loyalist. I like to have every tool at my disposal and that currently includes Canon, Sony, Nikon and Panasonic. I wish I could do it all with Canon but right now that's not a reality. But if I complain in a photography forum, well that's kind of the point. IMO a forum exists to discuss everything camera related likes and dislikes. There's no reason for it to get heated or nasty or leave people with the need or desire to block people or block the discussion.
popinvasion wrote:
I love Canon but I'm not a brand loyalist. I like to have every tool at my disposal and that currently includes Canon, Sony, Nikon and Panasonic. I wish I could do it all with Canon but right now that's not a reality. But if I complain in a photography forum, well that's kind of the point. IMO a forum exists to discuss everything camera related likes and dislikes. There's no reason for it to get heated or nasty or leave people with the need or desire to block people or block the discussion.
Except. . . when we've all heard it a ga-jillion times!
I'm all for NEW ideas. And I'm a proponent of posting images -- images sell the ideas and gear to me. It's always hard to argue against good results!
Gunzorro wrote:
Except. . . when we've all heard it a ga-jillion times!
I'm all for NEW ideas. And I'm a proponent of posting images -- images sell the ideas and gear to me. It's always hard to argue against good results!
Looking through my history you'll be hard pressed to find that much complaining about DR. If I ever mention it, it's in passing and phrased in a way where I try to include others desires into the conversation. I get the job done and get paid handsomely for my work and I use everything that helps me get the job. That said I spent in the last week over $3000 on more Canon lenses and I still need 1 more. So my posts are far from repetitious. Back on topic. I do think the 6D needs refreshed and it should be competitive with the Nikon D750, in price, function and features. That's my op and I'm sticking to it.
If they replace the 6d with a camera which has more cross type points (minimum of 9) and dual card slots, I'll buy one as a backup. In fact, I would have bought one before now. I'm more than happy with the sensor how it is. I would also like 1/8000th but I doubt that will happen.
Right now I don't really want to buy a 5d3 as a backup as it's overkill because I'll probably never need to use it.. and I thought about a 7d but I'm not sure I could do every wedding with a 7d if my 5d3 broke. So my 5d2 is still my official backup.
I wish I would tell the Canon execs that they missed out on a 6d sale from me because they under-spec'd the camera. Maybe they'd start to realise that not cheaping out on things does their business no good, long term.
Looking through my history you'll be hard pressed to find that much complaining about DR. If I ever mention it, it's in passing and phrased in a way where I try to include others desires into the conversation. I get the job done and get paid handsomely for my work and I use everything that helps me get the job. That said I spent in the last week over $3000 on more Canon lenses and I still need 1 more. So my posts are far from repetitious. Back on topic. I do think the 6D needs refreshed and it should be competitive with the Nikon D750, in price, function and features. That's my op and I'm sticking to it. ...Show more →
Hmm.. but the d750 is basically a slightly slimmed down 5d3 in terms of functions and price? I think the 6d should just be a d610 equivalent..
PhilDrinkwater wrote:
Hmm.. but the d750 is basically a slightly slimmed down 5d3 in terms of functions and price? I think the 6d should just be a d610 equivalent..
PhilDrinkwater wrote:
If they replace the 6d with a camera which has more cross type points (minimum of 9) and dual card slots, I'll buy one as a backup. In fact, I would have bought one before now. I'm more than happy with the sensor how it is. I would also like 1/8000th but I doubt that will happen.
Right now I don't really want to buy a 5d3 as a backup as it's overkill because I'll probably never need to use it.. and I thought about a 7d but I'm not sure I could do every wedding with a 7d if my 5d3 broke. So my 5d2 is still my official backup.
I wish I would tell the Canon execs that they missed out on a 6d sale from me because they under-spec'd the camera. Maybe they'd start to realise that not cheaping out on things does their business no good, long term....Show more →
Hey, a post about the 6D, imagine that.
IMO Canon will likely upgrade the 5D3 before a new 6D is announced. This will determine the feature set of the 6Dii. As it stands, from the list above I'd say more cross-type points is realistic, but dual card slots may be omitted to prevent infringing on 5D4 sales. I agree with 1/8000. My list, again depending on 5D4 release and enhancements:
More cross-type points
Would be great to see center cross-type point at f/2.8 but I doubt it. Maybe F/4 with others at 5.6
More AF points in general, or the same 11 spread out more
New sensor, more mp (but would be happy if left alone)
Higher flash sync, hopefully 1/250sec.
Redesign to be more like 5D3/7D2
increase to 6fps, but I doubt it
99-100% viewfinder coverage, but I doubt it
Slight enhancement to AF would be great, all the rest is gravy.
jcunwired wrote:
Hey, a post about the 6D, imagine that.
IMO Canon will likely upgrade the 5D3 before a new 6D is announced. This will determine the feature set of the 6Dii. As it stands, from the list above I'd say more cross-type points is realistic, but dual card slots may be omitted to prevent infringing on 5D4 sales. I agree with 1/8000. My list, again depending on 5D4 release and enhancements:
More cross-type points
Would be great to see center cross-type point at f/2.8 but I doubt it. Maybe F/4 with others at 5.6
More AF points in general, or the same 11 spread out more
New sensor, more mp (but would be happy if left alone)
Higher flash sync, hopefully 1/250sec.
Redesign to be more like 5D3/7D2
increase to 6fps, but I doubt it
99-100% viewfinder coverage, but I doubt it
Slight enhancement to AF would be great, all the rest is gravy. ...Show more →
I try
I would say that lack of dual card slots is really reducing its use in some sectors - particularly weddings. I understand what you're saying ... but I hope canon realises it won't do..
My only complaints re: a 6D, because I really really considered getting one as a dedicated back-up:
- no dual card slots (very important for weddings, big corporate gigs & really, most of my bookings, where card failure is simply not an option)
- even if it had 9 cross-type points spread around I'd be happy as a clam, given the 6D price
- 1/8000 + 1/200 sync (I don't understand why any modern camera doesn't have these abilities at a minimum?)
Otherwise, it is an amazing camera at a ridiculously affordable price-point given the image quality. If it had these features, I might be tempted to do 99% of my pro work with just two 6D bodies (instead of lugging 2 1-series bodies around).
The 6D is a really good camera it just can't compete with the Nikon D610 and much less the D750 in head to head comparisons. That makes it a tough sell to new DSLR customers. Only people that are already invested in Canon lenses would really take a good look at it.
Actually the same thing applies to the 5D3 now that the D750 is out, more so given that the 5D3 still costs more.
The 6D is aimed squarely at the prosumer-hobbyist market, and Canon marketing knows adding features like dual card slots, all cross AF array, 1/8000 sec., etc., would kill 5D MKIII sales if it sells at a faction of the 5D3 price. The only way those features would appear is if the 5D3 is discontinued and the 6D MKII becomes the sole "mini" FF model. Of course, the price point would increase. I'm happy with the 6D the way it is--basically a big Rebel SL1. If I need those extra pro features I'd buy a gray or refurb 5D MKIII.
Gochugogi wrote:
Canon marketing knows adding features like dual card slots, all cross AF array, 1/8000 sec., etc., would kill 5D MKIII sales if it sells at a faction of the 5D3 price.
You see, Nikon marketing knows that too.
Just something to think about.
Sneakyracer wrote:
The 6D is a really good camera it just can't compete with the Nikon D610...
I think it competes admirably with the D610; where the D610 has a more 'advanced' AF system and better DR at low ISOs, the 6D has:
1. Better DR/noise performance at higher ISOs
2. Better AF in lower light (the D610 falls on it's face...)
3. Better handling in terms of grip
4. Has an AF-On button that both the D610 and D750 inexplicably seem to lack
5. Has GPS, though I'd count that as a minor point as it's hard on the batteries
So it's not even a matter of a Canon-invested shooter- I loved my 60D except for it's inability to focus in low-light and it's terrible noise at higher-ISOs, and the 6D fixed both of those issues, while the D610 would have been less of an improvement, with significantly worse ergonomics.
(and seriously, go pick up a D6x0 and compare the handling to a 60D/70D/6D or even a D7100- it's pretty wretched!)
kaycephoto wrote:
My only complaints re: a 6D, because I really really considered getting one as a dedicated back-up:
- no dual card slots (very important for weddings, big corporate gigs & really, most of my bookings, where card failure is simply not an option)
- even if it had 9 cross-type points spread around I'd be happy as a clam, given the 6D price
- 1/8000 + 1/200 sync (I don't understand why any modern camera doesn't have these abilities at a minimum?)
Otherwise, it is an amazing camera at a ridiculously affordable price-point given the image quality. If it had these features, I might be tempted to do 99% of my pro work with just two 6D bodies (instead of lugging 2 1-series bodies around)....Show more →
I have heard from more than one person that dual card slots are important.... but I have yet to be presented with any anecdotal evidence that a card failure was saved because of a dual card set up. I haven't found even one believable example where a photo-shoot was saved because a camera had a dual card system that was set up to record the same images on both cards and something bad happened during a shoot. I can totally understand how one might feel a lot more comfortable having two if they are being paid for a professional shoot and they need reassurances.
As for flash - I've found that with Canon cameras - using a flash can be especially challenging and I'm left disappointed often. Mind you, flash is a science in and of itself - and I suppose to make it work for me I have to invest an awful lot more time. I do have a particular leaning towards using natural light whenever possible.
Images I'm seeing, and technical points, are a big improvement over my 60D in crop department. 