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Archive 2014 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

charlesk
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p.3 #1 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

In all honesty, I've never seen a lower ratio of criticism to reaction from anyone on this board than from Lisa. There are people here who get negative comments on their photos -- sometimes brutally negative ones! -- and react to them with grace and even appreciation. Lisa gets overwhelmingly positive responses, both in quantity and quality, but still reacts to anything that is not purely glowing praise with childish strawmen like "I'll try not to bore you to tears again with my meaningless, boring crap. I'm sure your own work is outstanding and on the covers of magazines.

I've been on FM for 11 years. What it has always traditionally been about is photographers providing feedback and advice to each other -- on images, technique, processing, gear, trip locations or whatever. Unfortunately, some people here seem to view it more as an extension of their Facebook page or private website, where the peons in the peanut gallery are a disruptive nuisance that must be endured.

That says a lot more about them than it does those who take the time to provide honest but fair feedback -- feedback that can help someone be a better photographer if they take it to heart instead of taking it as an attack. It also suggests to me someone who is really here not to be part of a community, but primarily for the purpose of self-promotion.

I see she went back and deleted all her images from the thread. Not the first time, won't be the last.

Sep 26, 2014 at 07:42 AM

dmacmillan
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p.3 #2 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

Paul Mo wrote:
Have you ever learnt in a formal art institute - one in which questions and critiques are part of the learning process?
Paul, as a graduate of an art school (Art Center), I can say with some assuredness Lisa has not been in such a situation

Sep 26, 2014 at 09:56 AM

loosh
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p.3 #3 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

charlesk wrote:
That says a lot more about them than it does those who take the time to provide honest but fair feedback.

Calling somebody stuck and questioning the validity of their art isn't constructive or fair.

Sep 26, 2014 at 08:41 PM

haleym77
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p.3 #4 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

Who cares if the scene never happened? Lisa saw her image in her mind and put the right pieces together to create it. And very well at that. There are so many beautiful art images being made now with digital manipulation. All those awesome levitation pics, etc. Beautiful and interesting pictures that have been digitally created are no less valuable than pics of true scenes. Prior to the digital age, there were fabulous film manipulators. They were never viewed as "less pure" photographers...quite the opposite as they were viewed as talented artists. I see no reason to "poo poo" an image because it was seen in someone's imagination first and then created. Lisa's work is fabulous.

charlesk wrote:
That is a beautiful scene of a baby sitting in a Radio Flyer in the middle of a road staring at a fantastic sunset.

The problem is that this scene never happened. It was fabricated from several different shots taken at different times.

I never said you weren't a photographer. But that image is, IMO, not a photograph. Because in my view a photograph needs to at least approximately resemble what the photographer saw when the scene was taken. We all make adjustments to varying degrees, and naturally some manipulate images more than others. Arguments can be made in many different...Show more →

Edited on Sep 26, 2014 at 10:59 PM · View previous versions

Sep 26, 2014 at 09:48 PM

Sagar
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p.3 #5 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

Oh God!!! Not again...

Havent folks who have been here for long enough, know Lisa and her style? If you think you have seen it before and its just reputation of her style for "you" why can't you just ignore the thread and let other who are interested in her images enjoy?

Why her threads have to be critiqued like this...I just don't understand why some folks here just love to bash some of her threads

Sep 26, 2014 at 09:51 PM

airfrogusmc
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p.3 #6 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

charlesk wrote:
That is a beautiful scene of a baby sitting in a Radio Flyer in the middle of a road staring at a fantastic sunset.

The problem is that this scene never happened. It was fabricated from several different shots taken at different times.

I never said you weren't a photographer. But that image is, IMO, not a photograph. Because in my view a photograph needs to at least approximately resemble what the photographer saw when the scene was taken. We all make adjustments to varying degrees, and naturally some manipulate images more than others. Arguments can be made in many different...Show more →

I don't know where to start with this. First have you ever seen the work of Jerry Uelsmann?
http://www.shutterbug.com/content/master-interview-jerry-uelsmann
He did this with film.

Did you know that composites have been around since the very early days of photography.
See the work of Henry Peach Robinson, Fading Away 1858 from 5 different negatives.

And check out the work of John Paul Caponigro. A modern day composite photographer and yes his work as well as Robinsons, Uelsmann and Lisa's work are all photographs. This argument was settled decades ago. Now whether you like the work or not is personal preference. There is a very long tradition in composite work and maybe you should relax trying to pigeon hole things.

I love this quote by Adams...
"Let us hope that categories will be less rigid in the future; there has been to much of placing photography into little niches-commercial, pictorial, documentary, and creative(a dismal term). Definitions of this kind are inessential and stupid; good photography remains good photography no matter what we name it. I would like to think of "just photography"; of each and every photograph containing the best qualities in proper degree to achieve its purpose. We have been slaves to categories, and each has served as a kind of concentration camp for the spirit."-Ansel Adams

So then what about the work of Anne Geddes? I'm pretty sure a baby was never in a flower like this
http://fineartamerica.com/featured/jacob-in-peony-anne-geddes.html

Or Wegmans dogs? I'm pretty sure this isn't real either.
http://www.thecoolist.com/dog-portraits-by-william-wegman/

And a couple of folks a lot smarter than I am about photographs and reality:
"What the photographer taking the picture and the historian viewing it must understand is that while the camera deals with recording factual things and events that form the subject of the photograph, it only produces a perceived reality that is remembered after the thing or event has passed. While people believe that photographs do not lie, this is an illusion caused by the mistaken belief that the subject and the picture of the subject is the same thing."- John Szarkowski

"Because we see reality in different ways, we must understand that we are looking at different truths rather than the truth and that, therefore, all photographs lie in one way or another."-John Szarkowski

"All photographs are accurate. None of them is the truth." - Richard Avedon

Sep 26, 2014 at 10:46 PM

bcguy
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p.3 #7 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

In my opinion, you have a very distinctive and successful shooting style. Many photographers never develop that. Is it fair to critique your style as repetitive? Possibly, but, in my opinion, how can you have 'a style' without creating a pattern? It seems to me that you are damned if you do, and damned if you don't. If every post you made was an inconsistent mishmash, you'd probably have even more criticism levelled at you.

I admire what you do. I know that I do not have the skill, and probably more important, the focus to create images with a consistent style like you do. Creating and maintaining a style takes work. Your work is not just 'f/2 and be there.' You obviously take great care selecting locations, shooting at the right time of day, and guiding your subjects to create the right mood for the photograph you are trying to create. That's not easy, and it speaks volumes about your vision, your patience and your ability to work with clients.

Sep 27, 2014 at 01:16 AM

Paul Mo
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p.3 #8 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

mihind24 wrote:
I don't know if I speak for others, but I can tell you why I would like to see something different from her: her work is very impressive, and I would like to see what else she is capable of with her knowledge and talent in both the field and with digital manipulation. Unfortunately, as of now, I haven't. Right now, to me, it's akin to that band who has released the same sounding album 8 consecutive times. The truly great bands grow; their albums don't sound alike, because they become more mature, more skilled, and influenced by new ideas.

...I...Show more →

This is a very astute post. And you said it more eloquently than I ever could, thanks.

Sagar wrote:
Why her threads have to be critiqued like this...I just don't understand why some folks here just love to bash some of her threads

Sagar, I am not sure I have seen that - the bashing I mean. Can you post some links? People are usually, and rightly, awed by her work.

Sep 27, 2014 at 03:02 AM

charlesk
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p.3 #9 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

airfrogusmc: I don't have a problem with people making composites, or in fact, making any sort of art at all. But all of the examples you gave, at least that I saw, are quite obviously composites. The articles you reference talk about "composites" and "composite photographers" and "collages" and "assembling".

The results are art. Whether they are "photographs" or not is a matter of opinion.

The real problem I have, to be honest, is with composites that don't appear to be composites unless flaws are found, and that are portrayed as single shots. The reason is that in many cases the composite process is used to create something that looks magical and special, and therefore much of the appeal of the image is the belief in the viewer's mind that it was indeed captured mostly as seen. To me, as a photographer, this represents a breaking of my personal implied contract to my viewer. Others' mileage may vary.

If I take a nice picture of my son, it's a nice picture of my son. If I take it with a butterfly perched on his head, it suddenly becomes something different, something special. If the butterfly never actually landed on his head, and I just post the image as if it had, I am not being honest in my presentation.

I know most of Lisa's shots aren't composites, and like everyone, she can do as she wishes. I am not trying to bash her. I said I really *liked* her image. But I liked it mostly because I thought the scene it portrayed actually happened. I'm not sure why it becomes "bashing" to express a bit of disillusionment that it never really did.

I know of one guy who is becoming quite famous by passing off almost his entire body of work as being intricate, "amazing", "how did you photograph that" images, when they are almost all complete Photoshop fabrications. He never admits that they are composites or collages, even when asked. He calls them simply "digital photographs", and IMNSVHO they are not. Because he knows that much of the reason he is selling his work is the fact that people think these are actual single frames with standard PS adjustments when they are something else entirely, something that if he made clear, would reduce the appeal of his work.

Again, IMO, if art isn't honest, it is nothing. It may have been possible to create collages using film, but it was rarely done. We can now do it easily, and I think we owe it to our viewers and especially buyers to be honest with them about what we are presenting. We have a responsibility to represent our art fairly. If others disagree, that's their choice, just as my disapproving of such is mine.

Sep 27, 2014 at 06:05 AM

dmacmillan
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p.3 #10 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

There has been an interesting discussion of composites and their place in photography. Differing viewpoints have been presented, often with quotes and other information to bolster the point of view of the poster. The discussion has been civil.

However, the underlying topic is not about composites but Lisa's response to a differing viewpoint. Instead of responding with a reasoned defense of her composite work, her response was petulant, arrogant and childish. That's her response to anything short of abject adulation.

She has been published, which she made sure to bring to our attention. It's always nice to see your work in print. Unfortunately, she uses this now as a weapon to beat down anyone who dares critique her work and also to insulate herself from their opinions. The publication of her work is no longer a positive accomplishment, it is just more fuel to stoke her ego.

Sep 27, 2014 at 07:43 AM

airfrogusmc
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p.3 #11 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

Yes they are composites but Uelsmann as the others are all photographers period.

Whether I like Lisa work or not doesn't change the fact when I look at one of her images I know it's her work period. That is huge because when I look around the world wide web I usually can't tell one photographers work for the next. The reason all of those other photographers that I mentioned wound up in this conversation isn't because I love or hate there work. It's because you can tell it's there work without looking at the signature.

Now if you know anything about my work I am pretty much a straight photographer. I usually only do minor adjusting in post to help me get my image to a finished print nd to show what I saw at the moment of exposure. But to see a photographer who has created work that looks like her work in a sea of sameness is refreshing.

The beautiful thing about the world wide web is everyone has a voice. The bad thing about the world wide web is everyone has a voice. LoL...

You have people at all stages of visual development and understanding saying what they feel about an image. So I have seen everything from great insightful criticism to people suggesting to someone that they crop out some of the most important visual elements in the image.

Whether you like her work or not doesn't change the fact that her work looks like her work. That is a point that 85% will never reach. Lisa can see light well. And ego? Why do many post at all but to stoke their ego. How many dig in when everyone can see that there comments are wrong? EGO..

There is fine line we walk. If you don't have an ego you probably need to get out now. And you surely need to get out if you can't defend your work. I think she knows exactly who she is as a photographer and she has developed a personal way of seeing. The large majority of photographers first don't know who they are and are just trying to make pretty pictures instead of meaningful photographs. Second develop a personal way of seeing.

Having said that, I personally like her more straight forward work better than her more fantasy driven work. I'm not a fan of Geddes or Wegman. But they are all very good photographers and have created a look to their work that reflects them personally to a certain extent. And that to is a place most photographers never get to but it's a place that if you are going to be REALLY successful and have longevity in both the commercial (I say commercial in regards to any image we create with intent to sell) or personal work, you as a photographer need to get to.

An interesting piece on finding a style.

And I am not a huge fan of Witkin's work I clearly can see why he is import to photography. BTW his images are also composites in the sense that he sets them up instead of combining them later. One way is not more or less valid than the other.

I read, some years back, an interview with Miles Davis and I remember the person conducting the interview asked if he liked pretty ballads and if he would ever consider playing one. Miles said something like, and I am paraphrasing here, I love ballads but I wouldn't be true to myself if I played them. So Davis should have branched out and done other things? I don't think so. Vah Gogh should have toned down those brush strokes? I don't think so. And Uelsmann should start shooting urban street? I don't think so. Like Popeye once said I yam what I yam....

Why should Lisa do anything different from what she is doing?

Sep 27, 2014 at 08:41 AM

musingclouds
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p.3 #12 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

One of the things I find fascinating is the number of posts here that never get any feedback, negative or otherwise.

Some of the truly good shots get lost in the wayside here because some people aren't established and don't have a following.

My thoughts.

Photography is photography. If an image is evocative and brings something to a viewer then its done its work. Ideally, a positive evocation would be great, but negative is nice too :P

Lisa did her job with the photograph. She got a response and personally its a damn good photograph; but I can kinda see the ego inflating by too many Yes Men or not enough actual criticism. It's important in life to take criticism and understand its not an attack on a person (for one, people don't know you as you, only you do), but rather something to help you change and develop as a person. You grow from your mistakes, your failures, and your imperfections.

Hell, I would hate to have images everyone said was great all the time. I want to become the best photographer I can because I really value my artistic eye. If I don't let that develop and grow by making mistakes and taking in feedback, then it's just going to languish.

Nobody wins any awards on the Internet forums people.

Sep 28, 2014 at 03:33 AM

Ian Boys
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p.3 #13 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

There is something annoying though about someone with next to no posted photos and a single like on the FM forums telling one of the most successful photographers we have that her stuff is boring.

Sep 28, 2014 at 05:21 AM

musingclouds
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p.3 #14 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

*Shrugs*

Everyone has a right to an opinion, whether or not its distasteful or not. It's up to you (the individual) to choose whether to give that opinion weight or not.

Again, this is the Internet; anyone and everyone has a voice, for better or worse.

Sep 28, 2014 at 08:19 PM

Steve Wylie
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p.3 #15 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

My personal code of conduct here is that if I see a photo or a series I like, I may (or may not) provide a positive comment. If I really like it, I'll say why. If, as in the case with Lisa, where so many people provide laudatory comments, I don't usually bother simply echoing them. If the poster asks for comment or critique, I will offer it if I have something I believe is constructive to say, and always with a positive tone of voice. If the poster does not ask for C & C, if I don't particularly care for the photograph(s), I won't provide it. Although I have a right to my opinion, I also choose not to exercise that right if the other person doesn't want to hear it.

Sep 28, 2014 at 10:16 PM

Paul Mo
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p.3 #16 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

loosh wrote:
Calling somebody stuck and questioning the validity of their art isn't constructive or fair.

Yes it is. But one has to be mature enough to get to the essence of such comments - to see the intent behind them, and ideally ask questions in return. Because from such dialogue can come growth and friendships.

Sep 28, 2014 at 11:52 PM

Kathy White
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p.3 #17 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

Steve Wylie wrote:
My personal code of conduct here is that if I see a photo or a series I like, I may (or may not) provide a positive comment. If I really like it, I'll say why. If, as in the case with Lisa, where so many people provide laudatory comments, I don't usually bother simply echoing them. If the poster asks for comment or critique, I will offer it if I have something I believe is constructive to say, and always with a positive tone of voice. If the poster does not ask for C & C, if I don't...Show more →

+1

My sentiments exactly.

Sep 29, 2014 at 12:21 AM

innovis
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p.3 #18 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

Highschool.

Sep 29, 2014 at 01:29 PM

Steve Wylie
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p.3 #19 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

Here are two more thoughts on the issue of critique.

First, written words rarely convey the entire meaning behind them. There is no audible tone, no visual cues, and no interpersonal context beyond their printed word. As such, the frame of reference on both sides of the equation (the offeror and the recipient) is not known. Thus, people come with their own perception about the communication, and react either positively or poorly. Furthermore, the written word is "sticky". It sits there, read and re-read, reinforcing whatever perceptions the recipient has, for good or ill. Along the same line, the words people use to convey their perceptions also have meaning and are often value-loaded to the recipient. Words like "empty", "repetitive", "dishonest" have impact that is often far beyond the intent of the writer. So a recipient may have "thin skin", but that does not mitigate the responsibility of the honest critic to be careful in his or her choice of words, unless the person doesn't really intend to offer constructive criticism, instead only a negative view. It's easy to type words on a keyboard; the important question is whether the offeror would use those same words in a face to face conversation.

Secondly, and following from the above, to be truly meaningful to the recipient, useful criticism should come from a source that the recipient respects. If one of my mentors or anyone whose work I admire and whose style, career, or other attributes I aspire to offers criticism of my work, I take that to heart, whether it's laudatory or brutal. If someone I do not know, or whose work I cannot see, conveys to me that my body of work or my style is somehow deficient (which is different than pointing out specific problems with details of my offered photograph), how am I to evaluate that opinion, other than to simply toss it off as useless or, more practically, not a prospective customer?

Sep 29, 2014 at 02:29 PM

airfrogusmc
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p.3 #20 · Apparently, I need to dust off my camera and go shooting again...

"No man has the right to dictate what other men should perceive, create or produce, but all should be encouraged to reveal themselves, their perceptions and emotions, and build confidence in the creative spirit"-Ansel Adams

Sep 29, 2014 at 02:34 PM

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