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Archive 2014 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?

  
 
Steve Spencer
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p.5 #1 · p.5 #1 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?


uhoh7 wrote:
I believed this myth for a while myself, but it's nonsense. I shoot uncompressed raw, and whether I got the focus or not is very obvious if you magnify on the screen.

In general with the M9, I spend much less time shooting, shoot many fewer shots, and I prefer the results, in general.
But if I really have a critical framing or focus, I can review :-)

@Steve

I guess bottom line is, why would you spend a fortune on a WATE, when a Zeiss Uwa zoom AND primes are coming shortly, and will likely be better?

As to the review I quoted,
...Show more

I would agree that waiting for the FE mount Sony/Zeiss 16-35 f/4 makes a lot of sense. I hope that is a very nice lens and it is small and that may be just what the OP would like. I have my doubts it will be both good and small, however. I am guessing it will be pretty good, but not small.

The WATE clearly is expensive, but it is small and although it has limitations, for the OP and the examples of what he shoots it seems that being nice at f/8 will more than fit the bill and would be enough. Other than the uber high price it does seem to be just what the OP is looking for.

I still don't think the FE mount primes are relevant to this thread (although for me they are very relevant), because the OP wants zooms (or maybe TS primes for a different way of shooting), so primes don't fit the bill.

I also don't think the Nikon D810 makes much sense either. The OP values small and a D810 plus a Nikon 14-24 f/2.8 certainly isn't small and costs over $5,000. If you add to that the Nikon 24-70 f/2.8 and 70-200 f/2.8 VR II, for the three zoom combo the OP wants, then you aren't saving much money (only $500 difference) over a Sony A7r, a WATE, the Zeiss C/Y mount 35-70 f/3.4 and the Sony 70-200 f/4 and the Sony would get you a much much smaller kit and would still have top notch IQ.



Aug 21, 2014 at 04:23 PM
sebboh
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p.5 #2 · p.5 #2 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?


uhoh7 wrote:
I believed this myth for a while myself, but it's nonsense. I shoot uncompressed raw, and whether I got the focus or not is very obvious if you magnify on the screen.

In general with the M9, I spend much less time shooting, shoot many fewer shots, and I prefer the results, in general.
But if I really have a critical framing or focus, I can review :-)


really? i checked recently because somebody else was complaining about it on the NEX and i actually couldn't tell if a landscape shot was in perfect focus with the NEX-5n if i shot only raw and looked at the magnified version of the image in camera. this was because when shooting raw only the jpegs you see in camera are very compressed. it's easy to see when i have focus right with the NEX before the shot but not after. i'd always heard the m9 was even worse about this.

uhoh7 wrote:
@Steve

I guess bottom line is, why would you spend a fortune on a WATE, when a Zeiss Uwa zoom AND primes are coming shortly, and will likely be better?

As to the review I quoted, I thought it showed many of the limitations of the WATE. Sure, at F8 it's nice :-) that might be enough.

Considering the OP's posts, I think the best camera for him is the D810.



i sincerely doubt the FE ZA 16-35/4 will perform better than the WATE on the a7r (just as the new canon doesn't), it will have IS, AF, and be much cheaper though, which could make up for that to many (it'll also be much bigger i'm sure).




Aug 21, 2014 at 07:49 PM
kwalsh
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p.5 #3 · p.5 #3 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?


Certainly a D810+14-24+24-70+70-200 is going to be on the radar even though it is quite big. My original thought here was a FF system that lives in the car and only goes a mile or so from it for my typically thoroughly scouted and slowly composed morning and evening twilight shots. I actually typically only shoot one composition in those cases, on rare cases two. I really might as well be using an 8x10 given how long I setup and just sit there waiting for the light I want. Size not a big issue for this use case. I don't consider doing that now because it would mean bringing that big system on airplane along with my more mobile m43 system. But next year I'll be within driving distance of my shooting locations so two systems is just fine even if one is pretty hefty. And I'll be doing a whole heck of lot more shooting in general hopefully.

Now, that A7r with WATE and the C/Y 35-70 is really interesting and not something I had thought of at all. I'd probably leave the 70-200 in the car and only use when I knew I needed it nearby - but for almost all other shooting including canyon and peak hikes it could probably do what my m43 kit does for me. That's a whole different ball of wax now. I'd want to do some A7r on small tripod tests regarding shutter shock, I carry a very lightweight tripod on hikes and shield from wind with an umbrella. Works amazingly well as long as the camera doesn't shake itself to death - might be an issue with the A7r. Of course for twilight shots I'd haul a "real" tripod. So anyway this is something I'll seriously consider once I see the lay of the land as other products come out in the coming year. Who knows, maybe the FE 16-35/4 will be "good enough".

Oh, and yes, I'm presuming I'd be shooting the WATE at F/8 pretty much all the time. No need or desire for a wider aperture. And from what I've seen it is an excellent performer at F/8.

Out of curiosity, is there a small, light, slow but sharp 28mm prime that works well on the A7r to fill the gap between 21 and 35?

Thanks again to all for the helpful discussion.



Aug 21, 2014 at 08:20 PM
curious80
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p.5 #4 · p.5 #4 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?


kwalsh wrote:
......
I previously shot Canon APS-C with mostly L glass (10-22, 17-40, 24-105, 70-200). I found it offered almost no practical IQ advantage over the m43 offering and sold it all
....


I did not get a chance to go through the whole thread so I am sorry if this has been discussed already:

Current canon APS-C sensors do not represent the state of the art in APS-C and perform about the same as current m43 sensors as you found out. However the current APS-C sensors from Sony do have a more substantial advantage over m43. So you do not have to go all the way to FF to see improvements over what you currently have. Saying that, if the extra cost and size/weight of FF is not a problem for you then obviously FF will offer you even more.



Aug 21, 2014 at 08:44 PM
sebboh
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p.5 #5 · p.5 #5 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?




kwalsh wrote:
Out of curiosity, is there a small, light, slow but sharp 28mm prime that works well on the A7r to fill the gap between 21 and 35?

Thanks again to all for the helpful discussion.


depends on what you mean by small and sharp. there is no rangefinder 28mm that works really well though some might still be very good if you only shoot at f/8 or smaller (cron or elmarit vIII?).

the ranking for manual slr glass seems to go as follows:
leica R 28/2.8 vII
c/y 28/2.8 (seems to be copy variation)
nikkor 28/2.8 AIS (better closer than infinity)
other stuff

the new nikkor 28/1.8 G and EF 28/2.8 IS are probably in competition with number 2 and 3 on that list. there are also a number of pretty strong contenders from olympus (f/3.5), pentax (f/3.5 k-mount 1st version), canon FD (f/2.8), and minolta (f/2.5), though I really couldn't say how they compare to each other.




Aug 21, 2014 at 09:03 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.5 #6 · p.5 #6 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?


sebboh wrote:
the new nikkor 28/1.8 G and EF 28/2.8 IS are probably in competition with number 2 and 3 on that list.



If the sample of the Nikkor 28/1.8 G I owned is any indication, it's not in the running for a great landscape lens as mine seemed to suffer what appeared to be some pretty severe field curvature (borders and corners are soft).




Aug 21, 2014 at 09:29 PM
sebboh
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p.5 #7 · p.5 #7 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?




Tariq Gibran wrote:
If the sample of the Nikkor 28/1.8 G I owned is any indication, it's not in the running for a great landscape lens as mine seemed to suffer what appeared to be some pretty severe field curvature (borders and corners are soft).



yeah, I don't know what to think about that lens. some people seem to think its amazing and others nothing special. I'm leaning towards the latter so far but haven't seen enough full sized samples.

the canon on the other hand seems pretty consistent from the samples I've seen: very good out to the extreme corners (better than the contax and nikkor in the corners), but without the bite of those top 3 in the central 3/4 of the frame.



Aug 21, 2014 at 09:42 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.5 #8 · p.5 #8 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?


sebboh wrote:
yeah, I don't know what to think about that lens. some people seem to think its amazing and others nothing special. I'm leaning towards the latter so far but haven't seen enough full sized samples.


Here is a 28G sample out of the D800E. Fairly extreme, u-shaped field curvature. This is at 5.6 but no amount of stopping down is going to fix this. From what I have read, it's typical of the lens.

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5540407/Nikkor28Gs.jpg

Link for full size version:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5540407/Nikkor28GFull.jpg






Aug 21, 2014 at 10:31 PM
sebboh
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p.5 #9 · p.5 #9 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Here is a 28G sample out of the D800E. Fairly extreme, u-shaped field curvature. This is at 5.6 but no amount of stopping down is going to fix this. From what I have read, it's typical of the lens.

http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5540407/Nikkor28Gs.jpg

Link for full size version:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/5540407/Nikkor28GFull.jpg



ah, inward curvature. should be great for environmental portraits and flowers, not so great for traditional landscapes. the 28/2.8 AIS does that to some extent as well if i recall.




Aug 21, 2014 at 10:36 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.5 #10 · p.5 #10 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?


sebboh wrote:
ah, inward curvature. should be great for environmental portraits and flowers, not so great for traditional landscapes. the 28/2.8 AIS does that to some extent as well if i recall.



Yeah, I'm sure it would be a great lens for certain uses.




Aug 21, 2014 at 10:43 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.5 #11 · p.5 #11 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?


kwalsh wrote:
Out of curiosity, is there a small, light, slow but sharp 28mm prime that works well on the A7r to fill the gap between 21 and 35?



I haven't heard much about it on the A7r but the ZM25 (more like a 27mm FL) is a superb performer. It is one of my favorite landscape lenses....



Aug 21, 2014 at 10:53 PM
MarcG19
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p.5 #12 · p.5 #12 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?


OP, briefly skimmed the whole thread, and I think I'm up to date, but apologies if I address something you've already made a decision on.

I'm a m4/3 shooter who "grew up" shooting landscapes on a Nikon D90 and D2x (mind you, I'm not as good as you are). I briefly tried the D7000 and the D600. I chose the EM-5 (and now EM-1) over the D7k and D600 because I found very little practical advantage for my photography over the EM-1, with much more bulk. (I shoot mostly landscapes, and also do some "street" "travel" "general portraiture" etc. photography) Like you and others have mentioned, the m43 is often great because if I am going on a non-photography trip, even the D90 and a few consumer zooms (11-16, 18-55 and 55-200) took up about 1/3 a carry-on bag. So, m4/3 has been excellent, allowing me to take it with a careful selection of lenses without much weight/bulk, both on planes and in the field. (it's great traveling with a small camera with one mounted prime strapped around your neck and 1-2 primes in your pocket).

Even in a world where money was no object, I would need substantially better image and lens quality to move up from the EM-1.

I believe, resolution has diminishing marginal returns. The D810's max resolution is 7360 x 4912 compared to the EM-1's 4608 x 3456, a difference of 1.6x in linear resolution (not taking account the different width to height ratios). So, we get 60% more linear resolution. Not bad, but anything less IMO is not worth it just from a pure resolution standpoint - IIRC the D610 doesn't even give you 1.3x the linear resolution. In truth, from a resolution perspective, the Pentax 645Z (8256 x 6192) is more interesting, but even that does not quite achieve twice the EM-1's linear resolution)

Dynamic range and detail is a concern. Again, however, I again grew up with a D90, and am quite content with the EM-1 since it's far better. I find the EM-1 roughly on par with the D7000, though all things being equal I might slightly prefer the D7000's sensor (D600 was a huge turnoff: same body as the D7000, but I paid $1400 more essentially for a sensor, which I did not think was $1400 better. And I had them both at the same time). I would not bother with APS-C, having owned all the cameras listed plus the 7D (my second favorite APS-C camera after the D2xs).

From what I've heard, only when you get to the D800e or D810 do I really begin to get interested in better dynamic range, better micro detail, and better uncompressed raw files. Again, the Pentax 645Z is even more interesting here too, from the little I've read on it.

As much as people disparage the Canon 5Dm3, a generation ago the 5Dm2 was supposed to be the greatest thing for landscape photography. It would seem to me to still be a good choice, thought it may not have as much detail/microcontrast/whatnot as the D800e.

Lenses: You need excellent lenses to take advantage of the D800e or D810's sensor. (Same with the Pentax if you go that route). That means, either big expensive zooms 14-24, 70-200 f/4 or 2.8, and the f/2.8 mid-range zooms of you really need a midrange zoom. I have little use for such things. Or exotic high quality, generally manual focus primes.

I think primes are the way to go if you really know your photographic habits. The 35mm focal lengths for most of my serious non-animal photography are 20mm, 24mm, 50mm, and 135mm. On a D810 I would be good with the manual focus Zeiss (made by Cosina) or Voightlander (made by Cosina) primes in roughly these focal lengths, since the reputation of the Zeiss lenses are excellent (I sometime see complaints about the Voigtlander lenses, and sometimes see compliments. Honestly I have a difficult time believing there's a great difference between them that can't be accounted for by price).

Bottom line: there's diminishing marginal returns to spending more money. if I wanted to spend more than the EM-1 for landscape photography, I think it makes sense to spend big for big gains. I'd also be very sure about the photography I do, the focal lengths I use (which doesn't seem to be a problem for you), and carefully extracting every last bit of improvement I can. D800e and Voightlander primes minimum, though I would also consider the Pentax 645 if that's in your budget. Spending less for lesser gains in specs, sensors, and lenses will net you even lesser actual gains, from my admittedly small experience.



Aug 21, 2014 at 11:32 PM
Arka
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p.5 #13 · p.5 #13 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?


Very nice images. My wife and I spent several years shooting landscape with early µ4/3 cameras, and overall I found them to be quite competent with great optics. We used an EP-1 and a GH2 with Lumix optics from 7-140mm.

The limitations I ran into with those cameras was shooting at night... they aren't well suited for that, and I found the FX-sized sensors from Nikon were far better, albeit at a significant weight penalty. I went from the D700 to my (current) D800, and loved everything about the Nikon stuff except the weight. The D800 offers the added bonus of amazing DR, which allows me to get the same image with far less work (e.g., no bracketing). That's less of an issue with desert landscapes like the examples you've posted here, but becomes a bigger problem with the watery and leafy landscapes I often like to shoot. Overall, I really don't have anything bad to say about the D800, and I will probably have some version of that camera in my kit for as long as I am taking pictures.

The best weight/image quality compromise I've found is my Leica M kit, though it cost me a small fortune. I use the Leica quite a lot for a wide variety of work, in part because it is so easy to tote around. A terrific camera with fast lenses in every focal length I use (21, 35, 50, 90) fits in the same bag as my D800 with 14-24 attached. You will mostly be limited to primes, but they are amazing primes, and absolutely miniscule compared to dSLRs or even µ4/3 lenses. and the DR on the sensor is better than anything Canon makes right now (though inferior to the Nikon). A few limitations though; the M240's max shutter duration is ISO dependent, and ranges between 15-60s. Also, I haven't found a way to turn off the dark-frame subtraction, meaning that there can be a very long interval between shots in the field if you are doing long exposure work.




Aug 22, 2014 at 02:53 AM
kwalsh
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p.5 #14 · p.5 #14 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?


Thanks for the various 28mm prime suggestions. I'm probably jumping the gun there, I'll need to wait a bit to see which hardware path (if any) I'm heading down before worrying too much about the specifics.

@Tariq - Egad, that is bad field curvature.

@MarcG19 - Thanks for taking the time. Your perspective on upgrading very much matches mine. It has got to be enough to be worth it. For me DR is the least concern as bracketing is so easy and painless, so it is really sensor resolution and better optics drawing me there. It just so happens most of the high resolution options also have excellent DR so that's a free bonus. I think it is going to come down to the question of the zooms I prefer keeping up with the sensor. I've usually thought going to 36MP was going to have to be a prime affair to be worth it which was a big negative for me. However, it seems like their are zoom options. I completely agree that if I'm going to bother with this I'll get the best to suit my needs (IQ, size, focals, etc.) regardless of price since I don't plan to own this kit for more than a year and a half.

@Arka - For very long exposures the m43 sensors have not been great, particularly the older ones including the GH2 which was otherwise a big improvement in sensor. I haven't tried it personally but some of the newer m43 sensors, some made by Sony, seem to finally have useable performance for night shots. For me astro shots haven't had much appeal so my exposure times typically get out to 15 or 20 seconds at worst in deep twilight. There is no doubt there are some very small and light FF options once you go prime and MF. I'm perfectly happy with MF, but switching to primes would be a big change to how I shoot. That may be another "experiment" for me to try with my existing gear, I do own a lot of m43 primes which I use for shooting my daughter and I could try doing a short photo trip only using the primes to see how that goes...

Again, thanks for all the thoughtful replies.



Aug 22, 2014 at 09:56 AM
snapsy
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p.5 #15 · p.5 #15 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?


If 28mm is a goal then you also might consider the Ricoh GR or Nikon Coolpix A. They sell used for what a 28mm lens itself would sell for and they're both incredibly small/light with excellent optics and a Sony Exmor 16MP APS-C sensor.


Aug 22, 2014 at 10:02 AM
fmfche
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p.5 #16 · p.5 #16 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?


I bought a GR to compliment my m43 kit, it is nothing short of phenomenal. I was mainly using an em-5 with my pany 12-35mm and samyang 7.5mm fisheye but now I tend to use the GR more because of the size and quality of the images. I still use the em-5 for poor weather and panoramas.

The built in ND is a really nice touch if you are shooting water and don't have a filter adapter.

Here is one of my recent shots I am fairly happy with

Interstate Falls by fmfche, on Flickr

It has some sharpness issues as I let the camera focus itself(it chose the foreground, use snap focus for stuff like this, my fault)



Aug 22, 2014 at 03:59 PM
itai195
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p.5 #17 · p.5 #17 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?


I rented a WATE for use on my A7 a couple months ago and was quite pleased with it. Amazing IQ in a package less than half the weight and volume of a D800 with 14-24. I was, and still am, tempted to buy one, but I'm waiting to see the Zeiss FE lenses at Photokina first.


Aug 22, 2014 at 06:43 PM
Sal Baker
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p.5 #18 · p.5 #18 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?


OP - you might consider keeping what you have, and if you ever need more resolution simply stitch.

I use an X-E2 which is a nice small 16mp camera. For landscapes, where I would be using a tripod anyway, I shoot giga pixel size images with a pano head. I use this:

http://shop.nodalninja.com/nn3-mkii-starter-package/

...and a Manfrotto BeFree carbon fiber tripod. Both together only weigh a little over 3 pounds and fold up into a small messenger bag.

Noise and most lens issues disappear when the final image is made from many full size images. And stitching software is almost entirely automatic these days.

Obviously this is only for shots suitable for tripod work. But it lets you have a small camera and huge resolution if you want it.

Sal



Aug 23, 2014 at 07:57 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.5 #19 · p.5 #19 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?


Sal Baker wrote:
OP - you might consider keeping what you have, and if you ever need more resolution simply stitch.

I use an X-E2 which is a nice small 16mp camera. For landscapes, where I would be using a tripod anyway, I shoot giga pixel size images with a pano head. I use this:

http://shop.nodalninja.com/nn3-mkii-starter-package/

...and a Manfrotto BeFree carbon fiber tripod. Both together only weigh a little over 3 pounds and fold up into a small messenger bag.

Noise and most lens issues disappear when the final image is made from many full size images. And stitching software is almost entirely automatic these days.

Obviously
...Show more

It would become an unruly technical excercise in the field perhaps, combined with the HDR bracketing, as the OP mentiones on the first page:

"For landscape the solution is pretty easy - HDR bracket. Since it involves no camera movement/recomposition like a pano it is trivial and fast to do in the field. All the modern m43 cameras have fast shutters and fast write times with a good SD card."




Aug 23, 2014 at 08:25 AM
Sal Baker
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p.5 #20 · p.5 #20 · For landscape, what is worth stepping up to from m43?


Well, I didn't say it was easier to stitch. But with a properly set up head and lens it only takes less than a minute to snap off 4 bracketed images. I don't find it unruly in the field at all, I'm already using the tripod and the head has detents.

When I shoot HDR pano landscapes I use the same presets for the images in the raw converter and HDR software, and send them to the stitching software. Of course, making 60 mp HDR images is more work. It all depends on what one wants to do. I rarely do HDR anymore so stitching landscape images is easy, and 20x30 inch prints at 360 dpi at native resolutions (or downsized interpolated resolutions) does produce nice print results.

Sorry for going off topic.

Sal



Aug 23, 2014 at 09:10 AM
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