p.7 #2 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
You know that if it weren't Ken, it would be someone else.
Ken is just a guy, if he were gone there would be a thousand more who could replace him. But there is only one you, she chose you for a reason regardless of her comment. Do the best you can by that, or offer her a refund if she wants it; honestly just do what you do and move on.
I've always been civil with people like this, if she wants her money back, just say okay, shake her hand, tell her she can always come back in a few days if the spot isn't taken by then, no hard feelings and nothing personal. The most important thing is not getting hung up over something like this.
p.7 #3 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
Hilarious. Psyc
May 21, 2014 at 01:16 PM
Andre Labonte Offline • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
p.7 #4 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
sidefunk wrote:
Although i agree with the general sentiment of this thread, i think "professionals" should act as such. I don't think airing ones dirty laundry on a public forum fits that role. Just my two cents.
IF the OP had identified the customer I agree, but in this case it is a professional seeking the advice of other professionals and avid enthusiasts. I see nothing wrong with that, especially if the OP learns something and finds a way to handle the next situation better.
May 21, 2014 at 01:56 PM
Andre Labonte Offline • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
p.7 #5 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
Psychic1 wrote:
If your equipment is a distraction, and in the case it obviously was, then you can not blame Ken Rockwell.
Your production should be buttoned up and tight, leaving the client without an excuse.
Everything you touch and everything you do must be perfect if you expect the check.
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True only if you are the best of the best and charging the premium prices that goes with it.
May 21, 2014 at 01:57 PM
Andre Labonte Offline • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
p.7 #6 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
GroovyGeek wrote:
While I agree with most of the sentiment on this thread, this is one that rubs me the wrong way. With so much information out there it IS quite possible for an intelligent inquisitive customer to "know better than the professionals". I have experienced this with doctors (one was not aware of a rare side effect of a strong seditive that was affecting my wife), building contractors (incorrect details on reinforcing a support beam), window repair guy (not the best technique in reglazing an old window), and a few other occasions.
I was happy with how each of them did their job. I had no illusions that I could do their job better than them. However, in each instance I was quite confident that since I was able to focus on the details of my specific circumstance to the exclusion of everything else, I was capable of digging up information that they were not necessarily aware of. The good professional will acknowledge such situations and work with the customer. All of the above people did. The bad professional will respond with "if you're such hot stuff, do it yourself then".
Without referring to anyone in particular, wedding photographers ARE a breed where the lay customer with an aesthetic eye can easily "know better" than a meaningful fraction of them. With a daughter in her mid 20s I have started paying attention to the portfolios of some and have discovered, to my great discomfort, that the ones I like I cannot afford, and the ones that I can afford are not worth the money. I am not talking low-rent weekend warriors here, but people who charge $5-$7k for a wedding. And once again, I am under no illusion that I can do their job better than them --- I am terrible at photographing people and avoid it like the plague. However, that does not mean that I, or many other people who have never picked up a dSLR, cannot make meaningful suggestions that, if considered thoughtfully, would improve the product.
Last but not least, I agree that this situation does not appear to fall into the "thoughtful customer" category. I was just responding to the (apparent) blanket statement....Show more →
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Well said sir.
The situations you describe result in conversations between the service provider and the customer ... never anything wrong with that. Customers should ask questions to ensure they are getting good value.
As you correctly pointed out, in this case, I don't think there was any pleasing this customer ... and if she had known what she was talking about she would not have honed in on a D7000 but wanted a D4 or D800 (or combination thereof).
p.7 #9 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
Good luck in your business. What a saga. You've achievedthe best outcome and avoided the social media implications you so correctly discerned are a risk in this connected and shallow rapid-gratification world.
This thread makes me thankful not to be a professional. BTW, you have a fellow Canuck on this forum who is a pro, using both DSLRs and Leica digital RFs. Perhaps bridezilla also knows Leicas intimately ?
p.7 #10 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
sidefunk wrote:
Although i agree with the general sentiment of this thread, i think "professionals" should act as such. I don't think airing ones dirty laundry on a public forum fits that role. Just my two cents.
You wrote this as if you knew the client. If you know this client, hope you're not the one marrying her....
May 21, 2014 at 05:33 PM
Andre Labonte Offline • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
p.7 #11 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
Psychic1 wrote:
Attention to detail is what separates the Men from the boys.
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Photography and attention to detail has nothing to do with manhood, but by analogy, congratulations on repeating what I said. Not everyone has the desire or the need to be the elite.
p.7 #12 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
People are allowed the freedom to have their opinions and in some cases there is just no point arguing them.
However. I'm just saying this. Some clients are going to have reasonable grounds to ask what you are using and why. It does make a difference unfortunately. The example she's given is obviously not even remotely intelligent. If it were D7100 vs D700 argument then sure maybe but even then they are both tossups.
You can't tell me though that a client isn't within their rights to tell you.
Hey this guy has a 36 megapixel camera that has way better resolution so we want that rather than you 12 megapixel photos.
Most clients aren't going to care so long as the photos look nice. The ones that do care quite frankly aren't worth it for most photographers to get involved with.
p.7 #13 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
Hmm... Mr. Rockwell's images, or yours. Decisions, decisions. If you can't blow her away with your shots, then she'll never understand.
Gear can also be personal. Ming Thein dislikes Fuji, Zack Arias loves it, and they're both very decent photographers and educators.
You'll always lose some customers, because they wanted 86 megapixel RAW files, and you don't do that. Those are the worst customers, who would just question why you shot at ISO 400 when the camera is better at ISO 100. Once I lost a potential buyer for my camera, because he brought his lens and a test chart, and figured he would need -8 AF fune tune on my body, and he wouldn't buy it if the fine tune was larger than +/- 2. You just can't argue with some people. Let it go.
p.7 #14 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
As I see it:
First the issue is not Ken. Everyone may have an opinion and the reader must validate the data. To msny, what Ken writes has value and they are entitled to their opinion.
Second, you entered into a contract and, unless I am missing something, the client just significantly altered the terms. The new demand should allow you to return the money and walk away or demand an additional payment to cover the cost of renting the body requested.
Third, if you continue with the engagement, D7000 or not, your work will probably be criticized no matter what. A refund will probably be demanded.
All in all, there really is no upside on this one. Maybe shoot both D7000 and D700 and let the client choose blind?
Whatever, it is your business. We all have to manage demanding customers and you want to maximize the potential of a win, minimize the potential of a loss.
On balance, I would ask for a supplement to cover the additional cost to rent a D7000 and shoot both bodies, letting the client select the best shots from both. Unfortunately this would saddle you with shooting dissimilar bodies with different perspectives and very different controls. I would not want to do that.
Lastly, no matter what your thoughts on his reviews, stop blaming Ken. This is not his issue.
p.7 #15 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
Why continue with this, on and on, you guys missed page 5
UPDATE: ****
I spoke to her and her fiance this morning. I was a 5 min conversation that went 15 min.
I explained to her that since the engagement shoot was going to be a sunset session, light gathering ability is paramount for a camera, and I would prefer to use my D700s as they are far superior in this condition than the D7000s. But if she really wanted me to use the D7000, I will but she would be responsible for the rental of the equipment.
She blew a lid here! Her exact words: "Wow! So you have old equipment, and you want me to pay you for renting new equipment? Do you ask this for all your clients?"
To this I responded that none of my clients have ever questioned my equipment, as the D700 was just replaced 2 years ago, and is still used professionally by many working professionals. In the end, I could take great pictures with either cameras. Those were her options. Pay for renting, or end up with great images anyway from my D700s.
She said that now that she knows about photography, she would have done more research about my equipment before hiring me. And that these pictures would be something she wants to cherish, and want the latest gear used. Then goes off about computer advancements every year and relating that back to photography equipment.
I cut her off before she got nasty and flat out said, I'll refund her the money and she can hire whoever she wants, and good luck.
She agreed - but man, if she wasn't a client, and if I didn't care about my reputation, I would have really liked to school her in the art of photography and equipment. I had to bite my tongue several times.
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Wow, just give to the OP a break, he dealt with the issue as a Pro, now lets move on.
p.7 #16 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
RSHPhotography wrote:
She refused to listen to anything I had to say and went off on a tangent trying to discredit my beloved D700 cameras using computer chip advancement analogies. My 2 babies have made me thousands of dollars - enough to buy dozens of D7000s if I wish.
I gave her the option to break the contract and refund the money, and she took it.
So tell me then if she was saying she wanted you to use a D800 instead of a D700 what would your response be. It doesn't matter that your 2 babies have made you thousands of dollars. If you are using lesser equipment than a competitor it makes a difference to some people out there. Her comparison is obviously way off base though.
I mean I could give you the same argument over my D200 that it still takes awesome photos and its made me thousands of dollars.
Would you make the same argument using a D200 as you would a D700? The point is she made a good point about using dated equipment. Part of being a professional is keeping your gear up to date. It doesn't mean buying every new fancy toy every single year but it does mean gradual progression as newer equipment is released as newer equipment DOES make a difference.
People can argue all they want but portrait photography has changed so much going from
D1 -> D2 -> D700 -> D3 -> D3s - D4 etc
I only agree with her general thoughts but the comparison she made is so far out its not remotely funny so I can't blame you for feeling how you did as I'd be in the same boat. I'd agree with her to a certain point and honestly then put your foot down.
p.7 #17 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
eltano wrote:
Wow, just give to the OP a break, he dealt with the issue as a Pro, now lets move on.
He opened the topic to discussion, I don't see the point in being upset that people are continuing to discuss it. Handling it like a "Pro" probably wouldn't have included airing it out on a public forum, especially if he didn't wish to hear opinions about how he handled it.
p.7 #18 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
I'd ask the bride to be "Have you seen the photos by Ken Rockwell? Your honor, I rest my case"
May 22, 2014 at 08:51 AM
jim allison Offline • • • [X]
p.7 #19 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
Any professional in any field must have self-confidence and be able to project it to his client.
I don't think that in this instance, he did that. He should not have engaged in an equipment discussion to begin with. He should have said just leave that to me. I will pick whatever is best for the particular circumstances of your shoot. Some cameras do certain things like low light better then others. Now take a look at this... do you like this style...how about a big print...He should have changed the conversation to a discusssion of his images because that's why she's hiring him. The OP is in business and could really benefit from some sales training.
p.7 #20 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
Sorry he should be upfront when people ask instead of dodging the questions. If clients ask "What do you use for a Camera". You shouldn't tell them it's none of your business.
It's a super competitive industry right now with more and more people jumping in each and every day. Clients have the right to know if a person they are looking to hire for something as important as a wedding aren't keeping their equipment up to date compared with competitors that are of equal quality and price.
Sorry but if you are charging people money they have the right to ask you anything and to get an honest answer. Not somebody trying to dodge it.
