Archive 2014 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
Andre Labonte Offline • • • • • • Upload & Sell: Off
p.8 #1 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
jim allison wrote:
Any professional in any field must have self-confidence and be able to project it to his client.
I don't think that in this instance, he did that. He should not have engaged in an equipment discussion to begin with. He should have said just leave that to me. I will pick whatever is best for the particular circumstances of your shoot. Some cameras do certain things like low light better then others. Now take a look at this... do you like this style...how about a big print...He should have changed the conversation to a discusssion of his images because that's why she's hiring him. The OP is in business and could really benefit from some sales training. ...Show more →
p.8 #2 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
aspirebooth wrote:
Sorry he should be upfront when people ask instead of dodging the questions. If clients ask "What do you use for a Camera". You shouldn't tell them it's none of your business.
It's a super competitive industry right now with more and more people jumping in each and every day. Clients have the right to know if a person they are looking to hire for something as important as a wedding aren't keeping their equipment up to date compared with competitors that are of equal quality and price.
Sorry but if you are charging people money they have the right to ask you anything and to get an honest answer. Not somebody trying to dodge it....Show more →
I don't think he dodged the question, pretty sure he answered it and the client didn't like it.
If you (general plural population) feel that to get business you need to show you are using the latest gear over a stunning portfolio, then you're doing it wrong. And if you're talking about the technical specs rather than what style you have in mind, then definitely time for a rethink.
Given that there is no true replacement for the D700 anyway then I would say he is using the latest model.
It's not the end of the world if you don't take a job because someone's brief does not fit with you.
I've told customers I couldn't help and moved on. No big deal. A couple of these were because they told me that every professional they know uses Canon and they want a canon shooter.
Should I go out and keep up with the Jones because someone they know shoots Canon.
I didn't let them go because they used the C word. They were fixated with canon and there was no way they were going to listen. The client, by the way, was horrified as they were expecting me to fall at their feet and grovel.
PS one the nicest and most humble photographers I know uses ,as one of his camera, an F6. He's wedding photos are some of the best you'll see. Pure art. Silly old geyser.
p.8 #4 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
aspirebooth wrote:
Sorry he should be upfront when people ask instead of dodging the questions. If clients ask "What do you use for a Camera". You shouldn't tell them it's none of your business.
It's a super competitive industry right now with more and more people jumping in each and every day. Clients have the right to know if a person they are looking to hire for something as important as a wedding aren't keeping their equipment up to date compared with competitors that are of equal quality and price.
Sorry but if you are charging people money they have the right to ask you anything and to get an honest answer. Not somebody trying to dodge it....Show more →
I really can't believe you wrote this comment about his gear. It states in the very first post, his conversation about gear with the woman,
p.8 #5 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
nikt wrote:
Just to add.
Isn't it interesting that when we move over to the photo threads, we praise or critique photos on their merit rather than the camera used.
This I see happen a lot on the wild interwebs. I posted a picture taken with my D7000 (I am no pro, just like taking pics) on another gear site and got a few likes and comments. A few months later, I posted the same image on a different site that stips all the metadata out of the image. Someone who posted about the image thought I took the shot with a D800 (which had just come out) and I got a ton of likes and positive comments about the image. It wasn't until I came back to the site to look at the thread did I see all this happen. Once I said that I used a D7000 and not a D800, the likes and comments pretty much stopped. Anymore, I will post just the final image and let it stand on its own and try to avoid gear talk.
p.8 #6 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
Here's another take. How can you set yourself apart from your competition, aside from the quality of your work? One way is a lower price, but for the sake of argument let's say you want to be profitable.
Customer service is a big difference maker. What's a D7000 cost to rent, $100? How about you rent one, sling it over your back and use your D700 for 99% of the work. Put a 18-200 on there too because KR loves it.
Now you have a happy customer who will recommend you to all her snobby friends. Instead right now she may be cursing your name. Inwardly you can hate her guts but, business is business. B&H and Amazon fall over themselves to make customers happy, it seems to be working.
I don't mean to put down the OP in any way I just think this is an interesting business exercise.
p.8 #7 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
Yeah, InlawBiker, I can just hear it all now as Bridezilla looks over the first iteration out of Lightroom 5.x
1. you mean to tell me you don't use Photoshop? Oh my Gawd.... my latest version of Aperture can do a MUCH better job of it than Photoshop!!!
2. What d'ya mean you use the on-line version? Everybody knows that working off the CD is MUCH more reliable and produces MUCH better output!!!
3. WHAT You do your own printing How can that be. EVERYBODY knows that using Walmart is a better option.
Now, she says, get with it Sucka, or I'm gonna give my business to the boy/girl (trying to be inclusive here) who lives next door. They have the latest and greatest equipment from Staples
Part of what it means to do good business for someone who may have lesser funding than BH and Amazon is not to waste one's, non-compensible time on people for whom wasting it produces nothing but aggraviti. The OP did good... he gave her back her money and got the F out of Dodge.... good thing, because she'd've bugged the shite out of him every step of the way, would still have been pissed, and would still have given him a thumbs down. I admire OP's patience: I've told the broad to kiss off first hint of bullshite.
May 22, 2014 at 02:27 PM
jim allison Offline • • • [X]
p.8 #8 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
This chap's big mistake was to go down to the same level and his customer and engage in a conversation about cameras. The professional is the one who determines what equipment
is best for the job, because he is the one responsible for producing the results. The equipment choice should be irrelevant to the customer.Their only legitimate concern should be the quality of the work, customer service and the cost. All of which are fair game. I don't know if this photographer has a walk in studio or is a weekend warrior, but his approach to sales is not professional. He let the customer put him on the defensive. Questions can be answerd politely and skillfully without having your back put to the wall.I think the OP
would have been better served posting on the Wedding Forum where there is a less
emotional approach to equipment and a deeper understanding of the business aspects of wedding photography.
p.8 #10 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
I've said it dozens of times - cameras are not PC's. They don't get "out of date" at nearly the same rate as that kind of tech. Heck - our very own Trenchmonkey routinely posts shots he just took with his D2-somethingoranother that puts many pros with D4's to shame.
In terms of influence on the quality of the final image, I'm sure we'd all agree the body is a distant third behind the photographer and glass.
Heck, used D700's are still selling for about the same money as a new D7100, right? Wouldn't that be a statement by itself?
As I said (along with many others), the original poster dodged a bullet. I only pity the poor guy who she finds next.
p.8 #11 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
The real hard part about dealing with Followers of Ken, is that Ken is right 99% of the time. But without the ability to interpret his reviews, or any other information about photography, for that matter, people know just enough to be dangerous- and Ken is the most accessible voice to those people.
p.8 #12 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
johnctharp wrote:
The real hard part about dealing with Followers of Ken, is that Ken is right 99% of the time. But without the ability to interpret his reviews, or any other information about photography, for that matter, people know just enough to be dangerous- and Ken is the most accessible voice to those people.
I'd take issue with 99% - not even close. His hyperbole taints the things he does get right.
p.8 #16 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
For me: He's the lazy man's encyclopedia for Nikon lens and cameras. He has written a review on everything ever manufactured, they are all the same format (easy to find what I want to know) and he is always in the top five on Google.
I don't pay attention to his recommendations. Someone posted earlier in this book that he (Ken) advised folks not to pay attention because it is what works for him. Unfortunately a lot of folks do pay attention and with that should come responsibility. But you are not suppose to believe everything you read on the internet and if someone is serious about photography they will eventually realize he is full of it.
p.8 #17 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
jim allison wrote:
Any professional in any field must have self-confidence and be able to project it to his client.
I don't think that in this instance, he did that. He should not have engaged in an equipment discussion to begin with. He should have said just leave that to me. I will pick whatever is best for the particular circumstances of your shoot. Some cameras do certain things like low light better then others. Now take a look at this... do you like this style...how about a big print...He should have changed the conversation to a discusssion of his images because that's why she's hiring him. The OP is in business and could really benefit from some sales training. ...Show more →
Hi Jim,
I actually did tell her not to worry. I even asked her what she thought about my portfolio. She agreed that she liked my images but they could be better with better equipment. There was no way around it.
p.8 #18 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
RSHPhotography wrote:
Hi Jim,
I actually did tell her not to worry. I even asked her what she thought about my portfolio. She agreed that she liked my images but they could be better with better equipment. There was no way around it.
Here's the thing.
If you are using a 35mm F2 on a D700 then sorry she's right. The images would look technically better on a D800 using a Sigma 35mm F1.4. If somebody is shooting your wedding do you want them to use a 24-105 F4 or a 24-70 F2.8. As photographers we automatically know what the answer is.
While older gear will still give results that look great you can't argue that often the new equipment does a better job. The fact is the majority of clients can't distinguish the differences. The only people who are going to know are trained professionals.
Also when you are assuming professional photographers know a whole lot about cameras you should really think twice about that. The number of times I've seen so-called pros getting talked into buying something when be provided really bad info at a camera store is rather alarming. For instance pro's that would take the advice on Ken's site would be like the blind following the blind.
p.8 #19 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
Tell her to find another photographer. The whole event will be a nightmare. If she's this way now, she'll be bridezilla all the way. Bad way to start as far as I'm concerned.
The part that she's throwing Ken Rockwell in your face is freaking awesome! (of course not to you, but in the world of the giant interwebz it's pretty funny. He just won't go away. )
p.8 #20 · Stupid Ken Rockwell may cost me a customer!
Probably will fire the caterer for not serving Kobe beef. Hope the guitarist has cleared his strings with her! Some brides do suffer from a little OCS about the big event.
? Oh my Gawd.... my latest version of Aperture can do a MUCH better job of it than Photoshop!!!
.