p.1 #4 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
It really does not matter much tho no printer that prints that large will be borderless. What size paper are you using? Cut sheets or roll? Seems like roll is probably more economical, so rolls come typically in 24 and 36" and 44" sizes right? Just figure out what makes sense assuming the same paper, of course....
p.1 #6 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
Okay, you are not doing the printing then? If not, ask the printer. If they won't tell you, just choose 1" all the way around. Mounting corners don't take that much paper, after all. Problem solved. Unless someone else disagrees....
p.1 #7 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
I'm not sure I've ever seen 20x30" frames as a "standard" off-the-shelf frame size. 24x36 or 22x28 is what I've got commonly available around here.
If it's a shop/store, see what size frames they have (maybe you already did, thus the 20x30 reference). If it's 24x36, I'd print so the printed image is taking up as much of the 20x30 paper as possible, so maybe 1/4" border.
If they really do have 20x30 frames as a standard offering, I'd consider printing smaller, so that the white edges act as a mat, for instance, an 18"x27" printed image would give you an inch on the long edge and 1.5" on the short edge and preserve the 2x3 ratio. People that want to actually mat could still do so and use the less-expensive off-the-shelf frame.
If you have a gallery or museum nearby, go and look at how they frame/present the photographs and see what you like. In that size, they will likely have 2-3" of mat or unprinted paper around the image.
p.1 #8 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
With traditional framing, I would typically leave at least a 2" border on a print this size. I don't think a 1" border is enough if a buyer were to choose to have it framed traditionally (safely and to a reasonably decent standard). I think it might even have the effect of "cheapening" the work.
p.1 #9 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
I have never framed a piece with exposed paper around the image. I usually go with a 4" mat all round. Seems like opinions differ on this. More paper is safer, I suppose. I would print using a 36" roll so would end up with 3" on each side. A 24" roll would be better and only leave 2". Assuming the printer us printing off rolls, may not be much of an up charge leaving 2" for this reason.
p.1 #10 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
Thanks all -- I had Googled for 20x30 frame, and found lots of results (including from places like Amazon, Walmart, etc.) -- and the print shop I'm using has 20x30 as one of their standard sizes -- so I had just assumed it was a standard size. (Of course I should know that I'll find anything if I search for it in Google!)
Sorry for a totally novice question: if you print on a 20x30 sheet of paper -- and let's just say you have a 2" border (such that the image is 16x26) -- is that called a "20x30 print"?
p.1 #12 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
Thanks!
My problem is I have to make about 10 copies, which will go to 10 different people, and each of them will frame it however they want (some of them might get cheap off-the-shelf frames, and others might go to custom framing shops).
So I'm hoping for a print that "works" for everybody, if you see what I mean.
As of now, the expectation is 20x30 sheets of paper (I can't go any bigger, but I could possibly make that smaller) -- and then I was asked about the border -- so I'm hoping to get some experienced opinions on how big the border should be, given that I'm not making a one-off print for a single person to their particular specification.
I seem to hear everything from no border, to 1/8" up to 2.5" -- and I don't exactly know how to decide.
I hope my question makes sense! Thanks again to all, -Scott
p.1 #13 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
If you don't have control of the framing, you are best to leave more border as it will give the customer more options. Probably not what you want to hear because it means your image size will be smaller than the paper size BUT print size listed is not expected to equal image size. Traditionally, it's seldom been the case in photography. So, you might have a 20"x30" image on 24"x 36" inch paper size. The "print" size in this case would be the larger 24"x36". With a print size of 20" x 30", the image may just be 17"x 25" and so on. That's pretty common practice. The exception for borders would be if you had control of the complete mounting/ framing process but in this case, you don't have that control.
Most of these 20"x30" frames you are seeing at Walmart, ikea, target and so forth are most often cheap poster frames with no matts (the ikea frame above is an exception and would be decent on the cheap. Note it's not 20"x30"). With a nice photographic print, you never want the glazing (plexi/ glass/ plastic) to ever come into contact with the surface of the print. Though you don't have control of that once the print is out there, by doing certain things - leaving a wider border on the print and not providing a 20"x30" print with an image very close to or the same size of these cheap, no matt poster frames - I think the print is less likely to end up cheaply framed (and ruined).
p.1 #14 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
Thank you!
So, let's just say the paper size has to be 20x30 (or could possibly smaller) -- and the photo is 2x3 ratio -- can you possibly recommend a "formula" for how I should make the completed print?
For example, assuming I stick with 20x30 paper -- And let's say the image is scaled down to 16x24, that leaves me with 2" borders on the sides, but 3" borders on top & bottom. And so you advise against a thin border?
I'm really very grateful for the advice here.
I have several people waiting, and I hadn't taken this border thing into account.
Very interested to hear how you might spec this print! Thanks again, -Scott
p.1 #15 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
you're in a tricky place because without having control over the frame and mat they select you don't really know the exact way to proceed. that's ok though.
i'd say know your audience. are they more likely to spend $150 to get a custom sized frame, or are they going to hit target and spend $40, or are they going to hit the bargain bin and spend $10?
if it's mostly the $150 custom crowd you can print to whatever aspect ratio you like. in this case i'd recommend leaving 1/4" all around so the edge of the paper sits under the matting. they'd be choosing the mat so you have no say in this scenario.
if they're likely to spend a few bucks for a pre-made frame, then you have to think standard size frame availability. this is absolutely maddening because the "standard" size frames are a completely ridiculous mishmash of aspect ratios that never seem to fit any standard camera nowadays - at least not in the size you're looking for. pick the most available aspect ratio and crop your work accordingly. (sometimes this is do-able. sometimes it ruins the image.) then, once again leave 1/4" of blank space around the edge so it sits under the mat. (those ~$40 frames usually have mats.)
last scenario is they go ultra-cheap and pick an off the shelf frame with no mat. if you think this is the most likely scenario then any border you leave on the paper will act as the mat in the framed photo. at least this way you can cut the paper to the standard frame size and print the image in whatever aspect ratio you like, leaving whatever size border you want. this is really subjective. i always like to leave a good 3", but you need to visualize how you want the final image to look and decide that way. make sure you use a good paper with texture in this scenario since the paper will sort of act as the mat.
honestly, the last approach may be the best all around. if done this way a person can use the cheapest frame and the image will still have your desired aspect ratio (not dictated by the frame) and will have a border that is also of your choosing. then if someone decides to get a custom frame they can simply cut their mat to your image size.
i have no idea if i'm making any sense. no coffee yet.
p.1 #16 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
turnstyle are you using lightroom?
if so go into the print module and set a paper size and then work your print size down (making sure to keep the appropriate aspect ratio) until it leaves a good looking border. you'll feel it when you see it. play with the whole range and you'll find something that looks right to you.
p.1 #17 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
Hah, I just quit coffee -- so pity me.
So your vote is 1/4"?
It's funny -- I never realized this would be a detail of debate -- I get everything from no border at all, up to a few inches -- I just assumed there was a "standard" common way to do it.
p.1 #18 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
turnstyle wrote:
Hah, I just quit coffee -- so pity me.
So your vote is 1/4"?
It's funny -- I never realized this would be a detail of debate -- I get everything from no border at all, up to a few inches -- I just assumed there was a "standard" common way to do it.
well, i leave 1/4" if i know for sure it's going to be matted properly. then i don't bother leaving a large space because it'll just end up under the mat.
but in this case they may not mat the image, so by printing the image with a large border you essentially create a mat for them. this way if they put it in a frame with no mat, the image will still have the separation from the edge of the frame that a mat would create, get it? but if you only leave 1/4" and then don't mat it, then it'll look (IMO) foolish because it'll only have this thin little border.
so.... by printing with a large margin you'll do two things: create a fake "mat" for people who don't use a frame with a mat, but also give people who properly frame the image the ability to simply put a real mat over the blank space. (this is the most flexible now that my mind thinks about it, and i think it's what tariq said above.)
the only downside to leaving the large margin is that your final print is smaller.
p.1 #20 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
A rule of thumb is that you generally want a larger border as you go up in print size as the weight of the print is more likely to cause mechanical issues in a matt the larger you go. So, a large print with say only a 1/4" border around the image could possibly slide down inside a frame and expose the edge of the print. If someone decides to have one of your prints properly framed, that means no cheap photo corners, no 1/4" borders and the use of a hinged window matte using linen tape and so on (1/4" border will not allow that).
Common sheet sizes for inkjet papers are 17"x 22" and 24"x30. Common roll width sizes, as mentioned earlier, are 17", 24", 36", 44". You should find out from the printer what exact print size options are available. Maybe it is not even inkjet, so the size might very well be 20"x30". This is going to be important info for you to know first before deciding on the actual image size. If it is 20"x30", I would probably go for an image size of 16"x24"' myself. The top/bottom and side borders do not have to be equal of course. No problem with 3"s on the top/bottom and 2"s on the sides.
pick the most available aspect ratio and crop your work accordingly. (sometimes this is do-able. sometimes it ruins the image.) then, once again leave 1/4" of blank space around the edge so it sits under the mat. (those ~$40 frames usually have mats.)