p.2 #1 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
OK, i think you've got it reversed.
you've got 20x30 to start with. if your length goes from 30" to 24", then you have lost 6", or 3" on each side. if your height goes from 20" to 16", then you've lost 4", or 2" on both the top and the bottom.
now, yes, you could change the aspect ratio of the photo to make the border even all around. BUT does that ruin the photo? some photos can take a crop and be fine, others lose their balance/mojo. this is why you should lay it out in a program like photoshop or lightroom or something to see for yourself what looks OK. also, an uneven border may not be a problem. people don't always mat evenly all around.
p.2 #2 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
goosemang wrote:
OK, i think you've got it reversed.
you've got 20x30 to start with. if your length goes from 30" to 24", then you have lost 6", or 3" on each side. if your height goes from 20" to 16", then you've lost 4", or 2" on both the top and the bottom.
now, yes, you could change the aspect ratio of the photo to make the border even all around. BUT does that ruin the photo? some photos can take a crop and be fine, others lose their balance/mojo. this is why you should lay it out in a program like photoshop or lightroom or something to see for yourself what looks OK. also, an uneven border may not be a problem. people don't always mat evenly all around. ...Show more →
It just depends on if his image is vertical or horizontal (with regard to top/ bottom border).
Common practice when matting is to not have an equal border all the way around. The visual center of a framed piece is just above center so it's typical to have a little more matt border on the bottom than the top. With regard to the actual image border position on the print, it does not matter (it can be centered on the paper and not have equal top/bottom borders with the side borders. I would never advise someone to crop in order to give exact borders all the way around. If it were to matter to someone, the best practice would be to simply trim the print.
p.2 #3 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
Place I'm going to also makes c-prints, which is what I'm currently queued up for. (uh-oh, is somebody now going to tell me I should get inkjet? I largely picked c-print because it seemed somehow "more unique" a process, and it didn't cost all that much more.)
Anyhow, thanks, this is all exciting for a guy who mostly only ever sees his photos on a screen.
p.2 #4 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
turnstyle wrote:
Place I'm going to also makes c-prints, which is what I'm currently queued up for. (uh-oh, is somebody now going to tell me I should get inkjet? I largely picked c-print because it seemed somehow "more unique" a process, and it didn't cost all that much more.)
Anyhow, thanks, this is all exciting for a guy who mostly only ever sees his photos on a screen.
Ha ha. Traditional C-prints can be very nice imo. I do think they are more unique (though technically not as archival as current inkjet pigment prints but that does not stop many very well established photographers and artist from using them).
p.2 #5 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
Thanks all, here's my current thinking -- and apologies if you suggested something different -- hopefully you can give me a "final reality check" on this:
1) I will keep 20x30 paper
2) I will leave an even 3/8" border around the outside -- the photo needs a trivial trim to leave an even 3/8" border -- so image is 19 1/4" x 29 1/4".
Here's why I settled on that:
1) 20x30 prints seem "reasonably common" -- so hopefully it's a bit easier for the buyers to frame however they want.
2) I think if I'm going to make a 20x30 print, I should shoot for a big image -- heck, why not!
3) My understanding is that a 3/8 border should be enough for people getting a nice custom matte/frame -- but not too much for people using an off-the-shelf 20x30 frame.
Is this a reasonable solution?
Thanks again to all for helping me get up to speed on this (and, btw, thanks for pointing me to the Print module in Lightroom -- I hadn't ever even opened it!)
p.2 #6 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
If some framers go the really el cheapo route, remind them they do need a mat. Ages ago I tried this -- and the print stuck to the glass. I know this is not your question, but there is indication that this may be a possibility.
p.2 #7 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
I'm not an expert framer, by any means, but personally I'd have some difficultly framing an image that large with just a 3/8" border. I like to leave 1" borders on my prints at a minimum.
p.2 #8 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
I just took a walk around the neighborhood (NYC, lots of places nearby).
Frame Shop #1: guy shuffles out from the back, very smokey in the store: "you need at least 2 inches, pay now, I do good job" -- overall skeevy vibe.
Frame Shop #2 (very nice place): "it doesn't matter, we can frame whatever you bring in"
Frame Shop #3 (friendly guy, but nowhere near as nice as place #2): "no border is fine, we just cut the matte a bit smaller -- or if you want the look of a matte, 2 inches"
Printing Shop: "most people print with no border, or put in a few inches"
So i guess my question is: unless you want a fat white border for aesthetic reasons, do you actually need any border at all? (2 of 3 framing shops said that was fine, as did the printing shop)
Can somebody perhaps explain why you need extra border if you want to matte it?
p.2 #9 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
turnstyle wrote:
I just took a walk around the neighborhood (NYC, lots of places nearby).
Frame Shop #1: guy shuffles out from the back, very smokey in the store: "you need at least 2 inches, pay now, I do good job" -- overall skeevy vibe.
Frame Shop #2 (very nice place): "it doesn't matter, we can frame whatever you bring in"
Frame Shop #3 (friendly guy, but nowhere near as nice as place #2): "no border is fine, we just cut the matte a bit smaller -- or if you want the look of a matte, 2 inches"
Printing Shop: "most people print with no border, or put in a few inches"
So i guess my question is: unless you want a fat white border for aesthetic reasons, do you actually need any border at all? (2 of 3 framing shops said that was fine, as did the printing shop)
Can somebody perhaps explain why you need extra border if you want to matte it?
So many variables and ways to frame is the issue. The one option you were told basically said - "no border and if you want a mat, we will make the mat smaller." That means, they are going to crop/ cover your image an inch or two all the way around. Not really an ideal solution. Also, folks who use no border might have the image face mounted - which, to do it right, is not cheap. You basically had three of these framers suggest 2"'s or a few inches. The safest way to handle this - if you care about the customer having as many good framing options as possible - is to leave a border of 2"'s. That allows them to have it matted correctly/ safely - without cropping the image or risking other damage...OR they might choose to trim the print and have it face mounted or similar for a frameless look.
Your final question - why do you need the border if it''s going to be matted...the window mat covers up the border and helps keep the print flat when sandwiched between the glazing and the print. There is a mechanical integrity aspect to having a certain amount of print surface under the mat. Some artists also use some of the area to sign or title work. Another option though is for the print to be dry mounted, in which case you would not need much border (you would want a little though to perfectly trim the print with the mounting material attached to it. Again though, the safest way to proceed which offers the customer the most options for different framing methods is to leave a border - 2" minimum is my recommendation. If you want the image larger, print on larger paper.
p.2 #11 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
And, just fyi, the first frame shop -- the one who only wanted 2" -- his place was pretty much icky -- I would never go in there again.
The other 3 places I went to (2 frame shops, and 1 print shop) -- both seemed to think it didn't matter -- but you're right: if they were planning on hiding a few inches of photo, that's not ok -- but the impression I had was that they would have a mat "just barely" smaller than my photo (like 1/8").
Yikes, this is so much more complicated than I had thought it would be.
But thanks -- I get your 2" thinking -- and I can re-ask the frame shops about whether it means they wind up charging for a much different mount service.
p.2 #12 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
turnstyle wrote:
Is there a disadvantage to using the "dry mount"?
eg, does that mean I can leave out the border -- and still have the "mechanical integrity"?
Or is there some catch to dry mount?
No, not if it's done correctly. The risk is there to melt the print if someone doesn't know what they are doing. It's a traditional method used with photography. What you absolutely would not want is someone using a spray adhesive or similar to permantily mount a print (and there is a risk a so so frame shop could do that!). With dry mount, it's reversible without damaging the print. Not so with some of the other cheap adhesive methods some framers might use. The Print is not going to move or go anywhere when dry mounted (I have dry mounted prints I did almost 30 years ago that look perfect). Again though, it's one of those things that's out of your control.
p.2 #13 · OT: advice on how much border to include on a print?
What Tariq and Goosemang have said.
Someone mentioned common print paper size and left out one of my staple sizes, 13"x19.
For a paper size of 20x30 where I am not personally matting/framing the piece (or know how the purchaser wants it), I'd make the printed image 16x24, leaving 2-3" of white space. This allows someone custom framing to easily mount the print, or someone who is doing it on the cheap to just put it in a frame with no mat (not recommended for reasons mentioned earlier).
If I am mounting it, I'm ok with 1/2-1" border at that size. To really squeeze out image size, if I'm mounting it I'll leave more at the top than on the sides and bottom, since I hinge mount with archival tape. The whole purpose of a hinge mount is so that the image is not connected on the sides and bottom so it doesn't get wavy if things expand/contract over time.
Yes, it's tempting to get every bit of image size for the paper used - but if you aren't matting, and you are concerned about what happens after it's sold, then you may be better off to cover the chance someone may throw it in a frame with no mat.
One thing someone referenced is signing. Photographs are traditionally signed en verso (on the back) in pencil. Obviously, this is the artist's choice. Stamps are also common on the back. If a buyer of my prints wants a visible signature, I will sign (and title, if appropriate) on the mat as well as on the back of the photo.
Hope this helps. Enjoy the process of getting and seeing your work printed!!
