This topic is in the 2013 archive. You can read it and like its posts here. It is read only.
Archive 2013NEX7 v A7r Image Quality Field Testing
p.1 #1NEX7 v A7r Image Quality Field Testing
After seeing how well the FE55 did on the NEX7 - I got a little curious about how the NEX7 and A7r would compare in side by side testing of field images.
It's not good for the A7r.
I did 4 comps, all with same lens (FE55), same settings, same processing and the NEX7 came out on top 3 of 4 and tied on the 4th.
The A7 images are adjusted to match as close as possible the 'reach' of the NEX7.
Comp 1 - this one speaks for itself.
Comp1 by MaxDistagon, on Flickr
Comp 2
There is noise on the A7r and disturbances near the roof sky transition.
Comp2 by MaxDistagon, on Flickr
Comp 3
The shingles are monotone in the A7r image, noise is also visible. There might be some resolution advantage to the A7r here but the colors being so bad it's not worth it.
Comp3 by MaxDistagon, on Flickr
Comp 4
I expected the A7r to really fail here - color gradients and the lossy compression and/or magenta pixel injection ( a way of faking the algorithm - who knows what and how it's being done - other than Mawz-genta
In reality it's a draw the way I see it. Sometimes I can see a reason to like either one over the other. (PS - I had to do the 2nd iteration to see if this was JPEG driven. There was no visible difference in the RAW files in Lightroom)
Comp4 by MaxDistagon, on Flickr
My recommendation would be to not buy the A7r at this time and instead pick up a very capable combination of the FE55 and NEX7.
Support the bandwidth and forum provided by Fred by clicking through one of his links for the FE55 at B&H - it doesn't cost you any more and it's like PBS - you're paying back into the social (and sometimes anti-social)
contract we share here.
The FE55 has some variance as noted here.
FE55 Lens Variation by MaxDistagon, on Flickr
Equivalence -
http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/index.htm
Given four cameras, one with...
...an mFT (4/3) sensor,
...another with a 1.6x sensor,
...another with a 1.5x sensor,
...and another with a FF sensor...
...and...
...a photo of a scene from the same position with the same focal point and the same settings (e.g. 25mm f/1.4 1/200 ISO 400) with all cameras,
...the photos cropped to the same framing as the photo from the mFT (4/3) camera,
...and the photos are displayed at the same size...
...then the resulting photos will be Equivalent.
Edited on Dec 23, 2013 at 08:47 PM · View previous versions
It's not good for the A7r.
I did 4 comps, all with same lens (FE55), same settings, same processing and the NEX7 came out on top 3 of 4 and tied on the 4th.
The A7 images are adjusted to match as close as possible the 'reach' of the NEX7.
Comp 1 - this one speaks for itself.
Comp1 by MaxDistagon, on Flickr
Comp 2
There is noise on the A7r and disturbances near the roof sky transition.
Comp2 by MaxDistagon, on Flickr
Comp 3
The shingles are monotone in the A7r image, noise is also visible. There might be some resolution advantage to the A7r here but the colors being so bad it's not worth it.
Comp3 by MaxDistagon, on Flickr
Comp 4
I expected the A7r to really fail here - color gradients and the lossy compression and/or magenta pixel injection ( a way of faking the algorithm - who knows what and how it's being done - other than Mawz-genta
In reality it's a draw the way I see it. Sometimes I can see a reason to like either one over the other. (PS - I had to do the 2nd iteration to see if this was JPEG driven. There was no visible difference in the RAW files in Lightroom)
Comp4 by MaxDistagon, on Flickr
My recommendation would be to not buy the A7r at this time and instead pick up a very capable combination of the FE55 and NEX7.
Support the bandwidth and forum provided by Fred by clicking through one of his links for the FE55 at B&H - it doesn't cost you any more and it's like PBS - you're paying back into the social (and sometimes anti-social)
contract we share here. The FE55 has some variance as noted here.
FE55 Lens Variation by MaxDistagon, on Flickr
Equivalence -
http://www.josephjamesphotography.com/equivalence/index.htm
Given four cameras, one with...
...an mFT (4/3) sensor,
...another with a 1.6x sensor,
...another with a 1.5x sensor,
...and another with a FF sensor...
...and...
...a photo of a scene from the same position with the same focal point and the same settings (e.g. 25mm f/1.4 1/200 ISO 400) with all cameras,
...the photos cropped to the same framing as the photo from the mFT (4/3) camera,
...and the photos are displayed at the same size...
...then the resulting photos will be Equivalent.
Edited on Dec 23, 2013 at 08:47 PM · View previous versions
Dec 23, 2013 at 03:03 PM
p.1 #2NEX7 v A7r Image Quality Field Testing
First test looks like missed focus on A7R. Did you consider the shorter DoF?
"The A7 images are adjusted to match as close as possible the 'reach' of the NEX7."
You can't do testing this way. It isn't fair to cut the resolution of the A7R image in half, and compare that to the NEX7s native resolution.
"The A7 images are adjusted to match as close as possible the 'reach' of the NEX7."
You can't do testing this way. It isn't fair to cut the resolution of the A7R image in half, and compare that to the NEX7s native resolution.
Dec 23, 2013 at 03:42 PM
p.1 #3NEX7 v A7r Image Quality Field Testing
briantho wrote:
First test looks like missed focus on A7R. Did you consider the shorter DoF?
"The A7 images are adjusted to match as close as possible the 'reach' of the NEX7."
You can't do testing this way. It isn't fair to cut the resolution of the A7R image in half.
In addition the NEX7 has higher Pixel Density than the A7r.
Rich
First test looks like missed focus on A7R. Did you consider the shorter DoF?
"The A7 images are adjusted to match as close as possible the 'reach' of the NEX7."
You can't do testing this way. It isn't fair to cut the resolution of the A7R image in half.
In addition the NEX7 has higher Pixel Density than the A7r.
Rich
Dec 23, 2013 at 03:56 PM
p.1 #4NEX7 v A7r Image Quality Field Testing
briantho wrote:
First test looks like missed focus on A7R. Did you consider the shorter DoF?
"The A7 images are adjusted to match as close as possible the 'reach' of the NEX7."
You can't do testing this way. It isn't fair to cut the resolution of the A7R image in half.
It's best not to comment or even point out basics. Eventually, Max will return or sell his A7R and go back to his NEX. The faster he finishes all his test, the faster he gets rid of his A7R. Entangling him in discsussion only slows the process down.
First test looks like missed focus on A7R. Did you consider the shorter DoF?
"The A7 images are adjusted to match as close as possible the 'reach' of the NEX7."
You can't do testing this way. It isn't fair to cut the resolution of the A7R image in half.
It's best not to comment or even point out basics. Eventually, Max will return or sell his A7R and go back to his NEX. The faster he finishes all his test, the faster he gets rid of his A7R. Entangling him in discsussion only slows the process down.
Dec 23, 2013 at 03:57 PM
p.1 #5NEX7 v A7r Image Quality Field Testing
All you've done is turned your A7R in to an ~18MP APS-C camera, and you're now comparing that to the 24MP NEX7.
Dec 23, 2013 at 04:01 PM
p.1 #6NEX7 v A7r Image Quality Field Testing
Brian - it's the other way around either 400% for the A7r and 300% for the NEX7 or 300% for the A7r and 200% for the NEX7.
I could have shot a 35 and a 21 or a 50 and a 35 but going with the same lens seemed the thing to do.
These were all AF and AF has been very consistent (on fixed objects) with the A7r. Both cameras were give an equal chance.
Rich - agreed ! Digilloyd has been saying this for some time 56mp density - the FE55 lives up to the tiny pixels as does the Apo 55 and Apo 135.
Lesser lenses may favor the A7r but I am really going for ultimate IQ. I'd like FF and Sony's EVF but I've wasted 10 days with this camera and it's unreliable and can't be trusted.
I never found this to be the case with the NEX7 - other than QC on sensor alignment.
Edited on Dec 23, 2013 at 05:45 PM · View previous versions
I could have shot a 35 and a 21 or a 50 and a 35 but going with the same lens seemed the thing to do.
These were all AF and AF has been very consistent (on fixed objects) with the A7r. Both cameras were give an equal chance.
Rich - agreed ! Digilloyd has been saying this for some time 56mp density - the FE55 lives up to the tiny pixels as does the Apo 55 and Apo 135.
Lesser lenses may favor the A7r but I am really going for ultimate IQ. I'd like FF and Sony's EVF but I've wasted 10 days with this camera and it's unreliable and can't be trusted.
I never found this to be the case with the NEX7 - other than QC on sensor alignment.
Edited on Dec 23, 2013 at 05:45 PM · View previous versions
Dec 23, 2013 at 04:03 PM
p.1 #7NEX7 v A7r Image Quality Field Testing
There is no empirical way of comparing the output of two different sized sensors; no matter the method, there will always be an argument against it.
For me, in agreement with Brian, I would look at the full image produced by both. Cropping the FF is a handicap and not relevant to choosing the A7r.
For me, in agreement with Brian, I would look at the full image produced by both. Cropping the FF is a handicap and not relevant to choosing the A7r.
Dec 23, 2013 at 04:03 PM
p.1 #8NEX7 v A7r Image Quality Field Testing
briantho wrote:
All you've done is turned your A7R in to an ~18MP APS-C camera, and you're now comparing that to the 24MP NEX7.
Not correct - this is the FF FE55 on the NEX7 and A7r. The comps were made by zooming in on the FF A7r images.
All you've done is turned your A7R in to an ~18MP APS-C camera, and you're now comparing that to the 24MP NEX7.
Not correct - this is the FF FE55 on the NEX7 and A7r. The comps were made by zooming in on the FF A7r images.
Dec 23, 2013 at 04:04 PM
p.1 #9NEX7 v A7r Image Quality Field Testing
dasrocket wrote:
There is no empirical way of comparing the output of two different sized sensors; no matter the method, there will always be an argument against it.
For me, in agreement with Brian, I would look at the full image produced by both. Cropping the FF is a handicap and not relevant to choosing the A7r.
That isn't what happened. Full size images for both - zoomed in (unsynced) in LR to show the appx same size.
There is no empirical way of comparing the output of two different sized sensors; no matter the method, there will always be an argument against it.
For me, in agreement with Brian, I would look at the full image produced by both. Cropping the FF is a handicap and not relevant to choosing the A7r.
That isn't what happened. Full size images for both - zoomed in (unsynced) in LR to show the appx same size.
Dec 23, 2013 at 04:05 PM
p.1 #10NEX7 v A7r Image Quality Field Testing
MaxBerlin wrote:
Not correct - this is the FF FE55 on the NEX7 and A7r. The comps were made by zooming in on the FF A7r images.
I get it... The FF FE55 magically turns the NEX7 in to a full frame camera!
briantho wrote
All you've done is turned your A7R in to an ~18MP APS-C camera, and you're now comparing that to the 24MP NEX7. I get it... The FF FE55 magically turns the NEX7 in to a full frame camera!
Dec 23, 2013 at 04:06 PM
p.1 #11NEX7 v A7r Image Quality Field Testing
Max,
There are no higher Pixel Density FF cameras manufactured at this time. The A7r, D800 and D800E are the pinnacle at the moment.
Rich
There are no higher Pixel Density FF cameras manufactured at this time. The A7r, D800 and D800E are the pinnacle at the moment.
Rich
Dec 23, 2013 at 04:08 PM
p.1 #12NEX7 v A7r Image Quality Field Testing
briantho wrote:
Not correct - this is the FF FE55 on the NEX7 and A7r. The comps were made by zooming in on the FF A7r images.
I get it... The FF FE55 magically turns the NEX7 in to a full frame camera!
Add all the icons you want - you're wrong. I took full size images with both cameras and then put them side by side in LR and then unsynced them and adjusted until they were as close as possible. Sometimes this was 400-300% and others 300-200%.
This is a better solution than changing lenses.
MaxBerlin wrote
briantho wrote
All you've done is turned your A7R in to an ~18MP APS-C camera, and you're now comparing that to the 24MP NEX7. I get it... The FF FE55 magically turns the NEX7 in to a full frame camera!
Add all the icons you want - you're wrong. I took full size images with both cameras and then put them side by side in LR and then unsynced them and adjusted until they were as close as possible. Sometimes this was 400-300% and others 300-200%.
This is a better solution than changing lenses.
Dec 23, 2013 at 04:10 PM
p.1 #13NEX7 v A7r Image Quality Field Testing
naturephoto1 wrote:
Max,
There are no higher Pixel Density FF cameras manufactured at this time. The A7r, D800 and D800E are the pinnacle at the moment.
Rich
The NEX7 and Nikon 7100 are the highest pixel density cameras at this time that are at least APS-c in size. Some of these smaller sensors are above 100mp
Max,
There are no higher Pixel Density FF cameras manufactured at this time. The A7r, D800 and D800E are the pinnacle at the moment.
Rich
The NEX7 and Nikon 7100 are the highest pixel density cameras at this time that are at least APS-c in size. Some of these smaller sensors are above 100mp
Dec 23, 2013 at 04:12 PM
p.1 #14NEX7 v A7r Image Quality Field Testing
MaxBerlin wrote:
Not correct - this is the FF FE55 on the NEX7 and A7r. The comps were made by zooming in on the FF A7r images.
I get it... The FF FE55 magically turns the NEX7 in to a full frame camera!Add all the icons you want - you're wrong. I took full size images with both cameras and then put them side by side in LR and then unsynced them and adjusted until they were as close as possible. Sometimes this was 400-300% and others 300-200%.
This is a better solution than changing lenses.
Full size != Full frame
This is basics Max... When you "zoom in" on the A7R photo, you lose resolution. If you zoom in to the level of an APS-C camera, you lose half the resolution. You can't compare a half resolution FF photo to a NEX7 photo which hasn't been subjected to resolution loss.
briantho wrote
MaxBerlin wrote
briantho wrote
All you've done is turned your A7R in to an ~18MP APS-C camera, and you're now comparing that to the 24MP NEX7. I get it... The FF FE55 magically turns the NEX7 in to a full frame camera!
This is a better solution than changing lenses.
Full size != Full frame
This is basics Max... When you "zoom in" on the A7R photo, you lose resolution. If you zoom in to the level of an APS-C camera, you lose half the resolution. You can't compare a half resolution FF photo to a NEX7 photo which hasn't been subjected to resolution loss.
Dec 23, 2013 at 04:14 PM
p.1 #15NEX7 v A7r Image Quality Field Testing
MaxBerlin wrote:
There are no higher Pixel Density FF cameras manufactured at this time. The A7r, D800 and D800E are the pinnacle at the moment.
RichThe NEX7 and Nikon 7100 are the highest pixel density cameras at this time that are at least APS-c in size. Some of these smaller sensors are above 100mp
Max,
As I said, the A7r, D800 and the D800E are the highest Pixel Density FF cameras manufactured at this time. OK, the NEX7 is higher, but it is an APS-C camera and that is understood.
Rich
naturephoto1 wrote
Max,There are no higher Pixel Density FF cameras manufactured at this time. The A7r, D800 and D800E are the pinnacle at the moment.
Rich
Max,
As I said, the A7r, D800 and the D800E are the highest Pixel Density FF cameras manufactured at this time. OK, the NEX7 is higher, but it is an APS-C camera and that is understood.
Rich
Dec 23, 2013 at 04:15 PM
p.1 #17NEX7 v A7r Image Quality Field Testing
naturephoto1 wrote:
There are no higher Pixel Density FF cameras manufactured at this time. The A7r, D800 and D800E are the pinnacle at the moment.
RichThe NEX7 and Nikon 7100 are the highest pixel density cameras at this time that are at least APS-c in size. Some of these smaller sensors are above 100mpMax,
As I said, the A7r, D800 and the D800E are the highest Pixel Density FF cameras manufactured at this time. OK, the NEX7 is higher, but it is an APS-C camera and that is understood.
Rich
Rich - agreed - we're talking past each other and Brian is now insisting that full size is my term for full frame.
The camera has issues at 1x - 300% - I'm done with it. Waiting it out or waiting for the next big thing.
MaxBerlin wrote
naturephoto1 wrote
Max,There are no higher Pixel Density FF cameras manufactured at this time. The A7r, D800 and D800E are the pinnacle at the moment.
Rich
As I said, the A7r, D800 and the D800E are the highest Pixel Density FF cameras manufactured at this time. OK, the NEX7 is higher, but it is an APS-C camera and that is understood.
Rich
Rich - agreed - we're talking past each other and Brian is now insisting that full size is my term for full frame.
The camera has issues at 1x - 300% - I'm done with it. Waiting it out or waiting for the next big thing.
Dec 23, 2013 at 04:23 PM
p.1 #18NEX7 v A7r Image Quality Field Testing
Why don't you start your own testing/review site? You could get your own minions that hang on every word you say. I think you would love it.
Dec 23, 2013 at 04:52 PM
p.1 #19NEX7 v A7r Image Quality Field Testing
Made some popcorn just in time for another MaxBerlin hates the A7r thread.
While I've go no skin in this game (I shoot Canon & Fuji neither of which has decided to enter the mega-pixel arena), I am curious about why so much loathing here. MaxBerlin, I think you might be best off selling your A7r, keeping your NEX 7 and buying an D800E for high resolution photography. It seems clear to me by now that this current iteration of Sony's full-frame bodies is just not for you.
Here's to brokering some peace on the Alt-forum,
bruce
While I've go no skin in this game (I shoot Canon & Fuji neither of which has decided to enter the mega-pixel arena), I am curious about why so much loathing here. MaxBerlin, I think you might be best off selling your A7r, keeping your NEX 7 and buying an D800E for high resolution photography. It seems clear to me by now that this current iteration of Sony's full-frame bodies is just not for you.
Here's to brokering some peace on the Alt-forum,
bruce
Dec 23, 2013 at 04:59 PM