This topic is in the 2013 archive. You can read it and like its posts here. It is read only.
Archive 2013Bailing on the A7r....
p.5 #1Bailing on the A7r....
philber wrote:
As to Max bailing on the A7R
He isn't actually bailing, we have a terminology problem here. You cannot bail on something you do not have. He is skipping it, although that sounds much less interesting, even if it is the truth.
Is it better to wrong and interesting, or right and boring?
As to Max bailing on the A7R
He isn't actually bailing, we have a terminology problem here. You cannot bail on something you do not have. He is skipping it, although that sounds much less interesting, even if it is the truth.
Is it better to wrong and interesting, or right and boring?
Dec 09, 2013 at 04:21 AM
p.5 #2Bailing on the A7r....
MaxBerlin wrote:
I didn't want to have to point out that most of that green/red transitions in your photo are separated by some extensive purple fringing.
TennClay wrote:
The purple is just a bonus! I must have missed it because I just inspected it at 9x magnification!
I see you actually fixed the link so we can now see what you were talking about - and you not only enlarged it to your 11x test, but you are looking at the green-white transition!
Dec 09, 2013 at 04:39 AM
p.5 #3Bailing on the A7r....
spieden wrote:
OK... I get it. The Sony A7r uses the same sensor technology (Sony) as the Nikon D800 and has the same DXO scores (95).
The problem is the lenses.
The A7 system, by using adapters, gives you several lens options and a wickedly small camera body. This is great.
But let's get real for a minute. The lens options are a problem. The ultra wides have serious issues.
Compare to the larger sized D800. The DXO scores are the same except the Nikon lenses actually work with the D800, including everything... starting with the 14-24 and ending with the 800mm.
I'd love for the A7...Show more →
Ahm, the same lenses that work with the D800 also work with the A7r. There is no lens that works with the D800 that would not work with the A7r. But on the A7r you also get a wide variety of lenses that also work great on the A7r that you can not use on the D800. Plus it is way better for manual focus. So, only because some wide angle rangefinder lenses do not work well to dismiss the camera is something I can not really understand, at least not on the alt forum
Regards, Stefan
OK... I get it. The Sony A7r uses the same sensor technology (Sony) as the Nikon D800 and has the same DXO scores (95).
The problem is the lenses.
The A7 system, by using adapters, gives you several lens options and a wickedly small camera body. This is great.
But let's get real for a minute. The lens options are a problem. The ultra wides have serious issues.
Compare to the larger sized D800. The DXO scores are the same except the Nikon lenses actually work with the D800, including everything... starting with the 14-24 and ending with the 800mm.
I'd love for the A7...Show more →
Ahm, the same lenses that work with the D800 also work with the A7r. There is no lens that works with the D800 that would not work with the A7r. But on the A7r you also get a wide variety of lenses that also work great on the A7r that you can not use on the D800. Plus it is way better for manual focus. So, only because some wide angle rangefinder lenses do not work well to dismiss the camera is something I can not really understand, at least not on the alt forum
Regards, Stefan
Dec 09, 2013 at 07:38 AM
p.5 #4Bailing on the A7r....
spieden wrote:
OK... I get it. The Sony A7r uses the same sensor technology (Sony) as the Nikon D800 and has the same DXO scores (95).
The problem is the lenses.
The A7 system, by using adapters, gives you several lens options and a wickedly small camera body. This is great.
But let's get real for a minute. The lens options are a problem. The ultra wides have serious issues.
Compare to the larger sized D800. The DXO scores are the same except the Nikon lenses actually work with the D800, including everything... starting with the 14-24 and ending with the 800mm.
I'd love for the A7...Show more →
What exactly are you comparing here? You note that a Nikon camera works well with first party lenses. Ok... You then note that the new Sony cameras apparently don't work well with adapted ultrawides. Presumably you are talking about rangefinder lenses or others that cannot be used on a Nikon F-mount camera at all, which makes this an odd comparison.
Early indications are that native FE lenses largely avoid the shading and smearing issues seen with a lot of adapted rangefinder lenses. The real lens "issue" is that the native lineup is currently extremely sparse. As with any new system it will take a couple years to expand the lineup of native lenses.
OK... I get it. The Sony A7r uses the same sensor technology (Sony) as the Nikon D800 and has the same DXO scores (95).
The problem is the lenses.
The A7 system, by using adapters, gives you several lens options and a wickedly small camera body. This is great.
But let's get real for a minute. The lens options are a problem. The ultra wides have serious issues.
Compare to the larger sized D800. The DXO scores are the same except the Nikon lenses actually work with the D800, including everything... starting with the 14-24 and ending with the 800mm.
I'd love for the A7...Show more →
What exactly are you comparing here? You note that a Nikon camera works well with first party lenses. Ok... You then note that the new Sony cameras apparently don't work well with adapted ultrawides. Presumably you are talking about rangefinder lenses or others that cannot be used on a Nikon F-mount camera at all, which makes this an odd comparison.
Early indications are that native FE lenses largely avoid the shading and smearing issues seen with a lot of adapted rangefinder lenses. The real lens "issue" is that the native lineup is currently extremely sparse. As with any new system it will take a couple years to expand the lineup of native lenses.
Dec 09, 2013 at 08:51 AM
p.5 #5Bailing on the A7r....
bpark42 wrote:
The problem is the lenses.
The A7 system, by using adapters, gives you several lens options and a wickedly small camera body. This is great.
But let's get real for a minute. The lens options are a problem. The ultra wides have serious issues.
Compare to the larger sized D800. The DXO scores are the same except the Nikon lenses actually work with the D800, including everything... starting with the 14-24 and ending with the 800mm.
I'd love for the A7 (A7r) to take over. Just give me lenses that don't have issues.What exactly are you comparing here? You note that a Nikon camera works well with first party lenses. Ok... You then note that the new Sony cameras apparently don't work well with adapted ultrawides. Presumably you are talking about rangefinder lenses or others that cannot be used on a Nikon F-mount camera at all, which makes this an odd comparison.
Early indications are that native FE lenses largely avoid the shading and smearing issues seen with a lot of adapted rangefinder lenses. The real lens "issue" is that the native lineup is currently extremely sparse. As with any new system it...Show more →
+1 And lets compare apples with apples. How does the A7(R) with with ultrawides other than RF? Wonderfully. The Olympus OM 21/3.5 works great! My Zeiss 15/2.8 and 21/2.8 Distagons also work great. There appear to be several Nikkor's, Canon FDs, that also work great down to 20mm. Yeah, it might suck for the Leica RF user but there are several options out there until Sony and Zeiss expand their lens offerings.
spieden wrote
OK... I get it. The Sony A7r uses the same sensor technology (Sony) as the Nikon D800 and has the same DXO scores (95).The problem is the lenses.
The A7 system, by using adapters, gives you several lens options and a wickedly small camera body. This is great.
But let's get real for a minute. The lens options are a problem. The ultra wides have serious issues.
Compare to the larger sized D800. The DXO scores are the same except the Nikon lenses actually work with the D800, including everything... starting with the 14-24 and ending with the 800mm.
I'd love for the A7 (A7r) to take over. Just give me lenses that don't have issues.
Early indications are that native FE lenses largely avoid the shading and smearing issues seen with a lot of adapted rangefinder lenses. The real lens "issue" is that the native lineup is currently extremely sparse. As with any new system it...Show more →
+1 And lets compare apples with apples. How does the A7(R) with with ultrawides other than RF? Wonderfully. The Olympus OM 21/3.5 works great! My Zeiss 15/2.8 and 21/2.8 Distagons also work great. There appear to be several Nikkor's, Canon FDs, that also work great down to 20mm. Yeah, it might suck for the Leica RF user but there are several options out there until Sony and Zeiss expand their lens offerings.
Dec 09, 2013 at 08:56 AM
p.5 #6Bailing on the A7r....
spieden wrote:
OK... I get it. The Sony A7r uses the same sensor technology (Sony) as the Nikon D800 and has the same DXO scores (95).
The problem is the lenses.
The A7 system, by using adapters, gives you several lens options and a wickedly small camera body. This is great.
But let's get real for a minute. The lens options are a problem. The ultra wides have serious issues.
Compare to the larger sized D800. The DXO scores are the same except the Nikon lenses actually work with the D800, including everything... starting with the 14-24 and ending with the 800mm.
I'd love for the A7...Show more →
RF ultra wides have an issue. On the Canon forum there are good reports with TS lenses etc... and I am sure a host of other lenses will work fine as well.
This is a typical internet phenomena..take a problem that exists with a few lenses and then widen it to include all ultra wides, and then treat it as fact.
OK... I get it. The Sony A7r uses the same sensor technology (Sony) as the Nikon D800 and has the same DXO scores (95).
The problem is the lenses.
The A7 system, by using adapters, gives you several lens options and a wickedly small camera body. This is great.
But let's get real for a minute. The lens options are a problem. The ultra wides have serious issues.
Compare to the larger sized D800. The DXO scores are the same except the Nikon lenses actually work with the D800, including everything... starting with the 14-24 and ending with the 800mm.
I'd love for the A7...Show more →
RF ultra wides have an issue. On the Canon forum there are good reports with TS lenses etc... and I am sure a host of other lenses will work fine as well.
This is a typical internet phenomena..take a problem that exists with a few lenses and then widen it to include all ultra wides, and then treat it as fact.
Dec 09, 2013 at 09:09 AM
p.5 #7Bailing on the A7r....
spieden wrote:
OK... I get it. The Sony A7r uses the same sensor technology (Sony) as the Nikon D800 and has the same DXO scores (95).
The problem is the lenses.
The A7 system, by using adapters, gives you several lens options and a wickedly small camera body. This is great.
But let's get real for a minute. The lens options are a problem. The ultra wides have serious issues.
Compare to the larger sized D800. The DXO scores are the same except the Nikon lenses actually work with the D800, including everything... starting with the 14-24 and ending with the 800mm.
I'd love for the A7...Show more →
Reports indicate the 14-24 works quite nicely on the A7r so I don't think you can really fault the A7(r) any more than you could the D800 for issues with ultra, should one try to use a number of RF wides on that camera.
Its just all and all silly to try to blame Sony for making a camera that doesn't work with various 3rd party glass. Sure it would be nice if it works with great with a bunch of M wides, VC's in particular because they are a nice size and reasonable cost.
If you want to use the A7 with Nikon glass, sans AF it seems to work great, just like a smaller D800e. Only "issue" I guess is people don't want to use big SLR glass on a tiny camera....
What is Sony to do though ? Hold off on the camera until they have 10+ native lenses ?
I have no doubt Sony will have a nice ultra wide zoom out, and it will perform quite nicely, it will be expensive, and it will be big and bulky. Same can be said for a bunch of focal lengths down the road.
Then the arguments of the Nikon have more focal length options effectively are negated, though I think plenty still won't be happy because they want to use RF glass, which still is going to have issues.
Its like wanting a 2 seat sports car and then complaining it doesn't do well off road or for hauling groceries/kids around town.
A7(r) has some nice features and brings the camera body size down, but it just appears its not the holy grail as far as bringing the overall rig size down to where some would like it.
Something like a 400 gram A7 sized FF 36meg body, which could also provide great results with ultra small/light RF glass in wider focal lengths just hasn't arrived yet
OK... I get it. The Sony A7r uses the same sensor technology (Sony) as the Nikon D800 and has the same DXO scores (95).
The problem is the lenses.
The A7 system, by using adapters, gives you several lens options and a wickedly small camera body. This is great.
But let's get real for a minute. The lens options are a problem. The ultra wides have serious issues.
Compare to the larger sized D800. The DXO scores are the same except the Nikon lenses actually work with the D800, including everything... starting with the 14-24 and ending with the 800mm.
I'd love for the A7...Show more →
Reports indicate the 14-24 works quite nicely on the A7r so I don't think you can really fault the A7(r) any more than you could the D800 for issues with ultra, should one try to use a number of RF wides on that camera.
Its just all and all silly to try to blame Sony for making a camera that doesn't work with various 3rd party glass. Sure it would be nice if it works with great with a bunch of M wides, VC's in particular because they are a nice size and reasonable cost.
If you want to use the A7 with Nikon glass, sans AF it seems to work great, just like a smaller D800e. Only "issue" I guess is people don't want to use big SLR glass on a tiny camera....
What is Sony to do though ? Hold off on the camera until they have 10+ native lenses ?
I have no doubt Sony will have a nice ultra wide zoom out, and it will perform quite nicely, it will be expensive, and it will be big and bulky. Same can be said for a bunch of focal lengths down the road.
Then the arguments of the Nikon have more focal length options effectively are negated, though I think plenty still won't be happy because they want to use RF glass, which still is going to have issues.
Its like wanting a 2 seat sports car and then complaining it doesn't do well off road or for hauling groceries/kids around town.
A7(r) has some nice features and brings the camera body size down, but it just appears its not the holy grail as far as bringing the overall rig size down to where some would like it.
Something like a 400 gram A7 sized FF 36meg body, which could also provide great results with ultra small/light RF glass in wider focal lengths just hasn't arrived yet
Dec 09, 2013 at 09:12 AM
p.5 #8Bailing on the A7r....
Damn, I just found the 11:1 button in Lightroom (who even knew it was there!!?) and now all my pictures look terrible. 
What camera can fix this? I'm buying it right away. Stupid D600.
What camera can fix this? I'm buying it right away. Stupid D600.
Dec 09, 2013 at 09:15 AM
p.5 #9Bailing on the A7r....
spieden wrote:
The Leica Tri Elmar WATE 
Really? You consider this the solution?
For me it is. My WATE works without any problems on my A7R as far as I can tell!
digitalfx wrote
spieden wrote
.. I like the A7r. But I won't REALLY love it until I have an ultra wide option that is a bit smaller than the 14-24 with an adapter. The camera is terrific. The lens options are not... yet.For me it is. My WATE works without any problems on my A7R as far as I can tell!
Dec 09, 2013 at 09:24 AM
p.5 #10Bailing on the A7r....
Mco, Hehe. At what effective resolution is a photo displayed on your monitor at that enlargement?
The answer is the Phase One IQ280, btw.
The answer is the Phase One IQ280, btw.
Dec 09, 2013 at 09:24 AM
p.5 #11Bailing on the A7r....
mco_970 wrote:
Damn, I just found the 11:1 button in Lightroom (who even knew it was there!!?) and now all my pictures look terrible.
What camera can fix this? I'm buying it right away. Stupid D600.
Damn, I just found the 11:1 button in Lightroom (who even knew it was there!!?) and now all my pictures look terrible.
What camera can fix this? I'm buying it right away. Stupid D600.
Dec 09, 2013 at 09:45 AM
p.5 #12Bailing on the A7r....
spieden wrote:
There are no ultra-wides that work well except the huge Nikon (with adapter) 14-24. A few other DSLR lenses (with adapters) also come to mind. .
How does the Zeiss Distagon 21mm 2.8 work on the A7r? - seems the RF lenses are mainly impacted by the ray angles.
There are no ultra-wides that work well except the huge Nikon (with adapter) 14-24. A few other DSLR lenses (with adapters) also come to mind. .
How does the Zeiss Distagon 21mm 2.8 work on the A7r? - seems the RF lenses are mainly impacted by the ray angles.
Dec 09, 2013 at 10:02 AM
p.5 #13Bailing on the A7r....
mco_970 wrote:
Damn, I just found the 11:1 button in Lightroom (who even knew it was there!!?) and now all my pictures look terrible.
What camera can fix this? I'm buying it right away. Stupid D600.
An image is built brick by brick by individual pixels. If you can't rely on the pixels being clean and transitions being reliable (as in the examples shown) the image as a whole will suffer.
Let's see what your stupid 600 produces - hint - use the best lens you have.
Damn, I just found the 11:1 button in Lightroom (who even knew it was there!!?) and now all my pictures look terrible.
What camera can fix this? I'm buying it right away. Stupid D600.
An image is built brick by brick by individual pixels. If you can't rely on the pixels being clean and transitions being reliable (as in the examples shown) the image as a whole will suffer.
Let's see what your stupid 600 produces - hint - use the best lens you have.
Dec 09, 2013 at 10:06 AM
p.5 #14Bailing on the A7r....
MaxBerlin wrote:
What camera can fix this? I'm buying it right away. Stupid D600.An image is built brick by brick by individual pixels. If you can't rely on the pixels being clean and transitions being reliable (as in the examples shown) the image as a whole will suffer.
Let's see what your stupid 600 produces - hint - use the best lens you have.
hmm, all my individuals seem have exactly one smooth color/luminance value. totally clean, not a single speckle of noise or any transitions at all within any of the pixels.
despite this, the quality of my pictures seems to depend completely on how i stack up the bricks (oops, i mean pixels) and not one what the individual pixels look like at all. when i upres the image to 11x, then add a bunch of noise to the individual pixels, and then down res back to original size the image looks exactly the same.
mco_970 wrote
Damn, I just found the 11:1 button in Lightroom (who even knew it was there!!?) and now all my pictures look terrible. What camera can fix this? I'm buying it right away. Stupid D600.
Let's see what your stupid 600 produces - hint - use the best lens you have.
hmm, all my individuals seem have exactly one smooth color/luminance value. totally clean, not a single speckle of noise or any transitions at all within any of the pixels.
despite this, the quality of my pictures seems to depend completely on how i stack up the bricks (oops, i mean pixels) and not one what the individual pixels look like at all. when i upres the image to 11x, then add a bunch of noise to the individual pixels, and then down res back to original size the image looks exactly the same.
Dec 09, 2013 at 10:58 AM
p.5 #15Bailing on the A7r....
If I only look at one pixel, it looks perfect. I guess the problem is that 11:1 is so limiting. I really need to zoom in more.
I guess the problem is that 11:1 is so limiting. I really need to zoom in more.Dec 09, 2013 at 10:59 AM
p.5 #16Bailing on the A7r....
MaxBerlin wrote:
An image is built brick by brick by individual pixels. If you can't rely on the pixels being clean and transitions being reliable (as in the examples shown) the image as a whole will suffer.
That's a very depressing way to think about an image. I wonder what a photographer like Miroslav Tichý would have said about it? I mean, having made his cameras from what amounted to trash and producing some very evocative images.
An image is built brick by brick by individual pixels. If you can't rely on the pixels being clean and transitions being reliable (as in the examples shown) the image as a whole will suffer.
That's a very depressing way to think about an image. I wonder what a photographer like Miroslav Tichý would have said about it? I mean, having made his cameras from what amounted to trash and producing some very evocative images.
Dec 09, 2013 at 11:17 AM
p.5 #17Bailing on the A7r....
tennclay wrote:
I see you actually fixed the link so we can now see what you were talking about - and you not only enlarged it to your 11x test, but you are looking at the green-white transition!
You're using a garbage lens. This adds nothing to the conversation.
MaxBerlin wrote
I didn't want to have to point out that most of that green/red transitions in your photo are separated by some extensive purple fringing.TennClay wrote
The purple is just a bonus! I must have missed it because I just inspected it at 9x magnification! You're using a garbage lens. This adds nothing to the conversation.
Dec 09, 2013 at 11:29 AM
p.5 #18Bailing on the A7r....
mco_970 wrote:
If I only look at one pixel, it looks perfect. I guess the problem is that 11:1 is so limiting. I really need to zoom in more.
Where's your image ?
And again your not getting the larger point. It is about the transitions at the pixel level. Straight conversion, no sharpening, no smoothing.
The A7r fails at some transitions.
If I only look at one pixel, it looks perfect.
I guess the problem is that 11:1 is so limiting. I really need to zoom in more.Where's your image ?
And again your not getting the larger point. It is about the transitions at the pixel level. Straight conversion, no sharpening, no smoothing.
The A7r fails at some transitions.
Dec 09, 2013 at 11:33 AM
p.5 #19Bailing on the A7r....
MaxBerlin wrote:
"So you haven't even received the camera, but you're calling it a failure?"
Yes - a mystifying contradiction.
I also decided not to pick fight with Harley gangs, yell "I've got a bomb" on an airplane, or throw a baby off of a high rise without trying it first. (and 1,000s of others)
How does one come to these less than sane conclusions ?
They read, you startling genius. They read as much as they can about the camera and begin to lean from "the greatest camera ever" to "maybe I don't need this set of problems".
No matter how this discussion turns out, I will enshrine this response in the FM hall of fame. Delightful
!
"So you haven't even received the camera, but you're calling it a failure?"
Yes - a mystifying contradiction.
I also decided not to pick fight with Harley gangs, yell "I've got a bomb" on an airplane, or throw a baby off of a high rise without trying it first. (and 1,000s of others)
How does one come to these less than sane conclusions ?
They read, you startling genius. They read as much as they can about the camera and begin to lean from "the greatest camera ever" to "maybe I don't need this set of problems".
No matter how this discussion turns out, I will enshrine this response in the FM hall of fame. Delightful
!
Dec 09, 2013 at 11:34 AM
p.5 #20Bailing on the A7r....
This become ridicules! You are not looking brick, but looking a piece of *** on the brick by zoom 1:11 or !:9.
When I visit great wall, I never pay a attention to brick but whole scenary. not to mention looks for **** on brick.
A7R have many limitations, but this green/red or white/green etc... can't make to the list.
When I visit great wall, I never pay a attention to brick but whole scenary. not to mention looks for **** on brick.
A7R have many limitations, but this green/red or white/green etc... can't make to the list.
Dec 09, 2013 at 11:36 AM