This topic is in the 2013 archive. You can read it and like its posts here. It is read only.
Archive 2013Bailing on the A7r....
p.1 #1Bailing on the A7r....
The Sony A7r has a number of issues and I am just at the tipping point of considering whether I should bail on the camera and wait for something better. The main reasons -
1. The color shading issues.
2. The compression artifacts documented at digilloyd
3. Shutter noise and vibration
4. Tonal transitions
More than likely I will take delivery - do my own testing and find out if the camera is worth keeping. As it stands right now I think Sony failed to deliver on what the NEX7 promised.
1. The color shading issues.
2. The compression artifacts documented at digilloyd
3. Shutter noise and vibration
4. Tonal transitions
More than likely I will take delivery - do my own testing and find out if the camera is worth keeping. As it stands right now I think Sony failed to deliver on what the NEX7 promised.
Dec 08, 2013 at 12:38 PM
p.1 #3Bailing on the A7r....
So you haven't even received the camera, but you're calling it a failure? I wonder about the sanity of this board sometimes.
Dec 08, 2013 at 12:49 PM
p.1 #4Bailing on the A7r....
"So you haven't even received the camera, but you're calling it a failure?"
Yes - a mystifying contradiction.
I also decided not to pick fight with Harley gangs, yell "I've got a bomb" on an airplane, or throw a baby off of a high rise without trying it first. (and 1,000s of others)
How does one come to these less than sane conclusions ?
They read, you startling genius. They read as much as they can about the camera and begin to lean from "the greatest camera ever" to "maybe I don't need this set of problems".
Yes - a mystifying contradiction.
I also decided not to pick fight with Harley gangs, yell "I've got a bomb" on an airplane, or throw a baby off of a high rise without trying it first. (and 1,000s of others)
How does one come to these less than sane conclusions ?
They read, you startling genius. They read as much as they can about the camera and begin to lean from "the greatest camera ever" to "maybe I don't need this set of problems".
Dec 08, 2013 at 12:58 PM
p.1 #5Bailing on the A7r....
Oh so you're basing you're expectations on other people who hadn't tried the camera saying it's the greatest camera ever. That makes more sense. My apologies.
Dec 08, 2013 at 01:06 PM
p.1 #6Bailing on the A7r....
Wait. Good idea. I'd expect an iteration of the A7s soon. Say right after the Nikon D400 or Sony A900/A99 replacements.
Dec 08, 2013 at 01:06 PM
p.1 #7Bailing on the A7r....
Max, I now have a A7R, and have used it only for a couple of times a couple of hours, meaning far less than 10% of the time I spent reading about it.
But it is enough to let anything I read about it fly out the window, because (a) there is so much contradiction anyway between what people report that picking one version is just choosing one's poison, and (b) what I experienced does not replicate what I read, but that is what I can trust.
More importantly, 99% of what is written centers around what is wrong with this piece of equipment, whereas I buy for the opposite reason, for what is right.
But it is enough to let anything I read about it fly out the window, because (a) there is so much contradiction anyway between what people report that picking one version is just choosing one's poison, and (b) what I experienced does not replicate what I read, but that is what I can trust.
More importantly, 99% of what is written centers around what is wrong with this piece of equipment, whereas I buy for the opposite reason, for what is right.
Dec 08, 2013 at 01:18 PM
p.1 #8Bailing on the A7r....
Philber - the worst issue I've seen documented is the 'orange peel' and the banding and pixelation around red/green transition areas.
The magenta/green concentric circles can probably be overlooked but still not encouraging.
The magenta/green concentric circles can probably be overlooked but still not encouraging.
Dec 08, 2013 at 01:23 PM
p.1 #9Bailing on the A7r....
The other issue is around the 8 bit compression the A7r uses across the board - no RAW file is above 37.4mb - the D800e can generate files twice this size on complicated photos. What is being lost in that 30mb ? Or being compressed (pixelated/banded) ?
Dec 08, 2013 at 01:28 PM
p.1 #10Bailing on the A7r....
MaxBerlin wrote:
Philber - the worst issue I've seen documented is the 'orange peel' and the banding and pixelation around red/green transition areas.
The magenta/green concentric circles can probably be overlooked but still not encouraging.
Is this only in the JPEG. I don't have the subscription to the mirrorless section but it seems Lloyd meant the 8-bit lossy compression. That would mean JPEG. It's interesting to know if it also happens in RAW, and I wonder why no one has noticed that before.
And RAW from Sony is compressed, but lossless. This is the same with any Sony cam I think, and I have not seen anyone complains about that.
Philber - the worst issue I've seen documented is the 'orange peel' and the banding and pixelation around red/green transition areas.
The magenta/green concentric circles can probably be overlooked but still not encouraging.
Is this only in the JPEG. I don't have the subscription to the mirrorless section but it seems Lloyd meant the 8-bit lossy compression. That would mean JPEG. It's interesting to know if it also happens in RAW, and I wonder why no one has noticed that before.
And RAW from Sony is compressed, but lossless. This is the same with any Sony cam I think, and I have not seen anyone complains about that.
Dec 08, 2013 at 01:33 PM
p.1 #11Bailing on the A7r....
If you based your decision on reviews alone you would never buy anything. Withhold your comments until you own the camera.
Ive had mine for a week and its defiantly a love hate relationship. At first I hated it, mostly based on what I read. But the more I use the camera the more I like it. Ive nearly returned it twice. Does it have flaws? of course it does. Have you ever owned a perfect camera? A perfect camera simply doesn't exist.
I am primarily a rangefinder shooter and use a M240 as my primary camera and a 5D3 as my sports and video shooter. I have a wealth of MF lenses and for me the A7R seemed like the "perfect" camera. Its far from it, but I still love it. I think its a keeper....today
BTW- The shutter sound is oddly the one thing that bothers me more than any other issue with the camera.
Ive had mine for a week and its defiantly a love hate relationship. At first I hated it, mostly based on what I read. But the more I use the camera the more I like it. Ive nearly returned it twice. Does it have flaws? of course it does. Have you ever owned a perfect camera? A perfect camera simply doesn't exist.
I am primarily a rangefinder shooter and use a M240 as my primary camera and a 5D3 as my sports and video shooter. I have a wealth of MF lenses and for me the A7R seemed like the "perfect" camera. Its far from it, but I still love it. I think its a keeper....today
BTW- The shutter sound is oddly the one thing that bothers me more than any other issue with the camera.
Dec 08, 2013 at 01:34 PM
p.1 #12Bailing on the A7r....
hiepphotog wrote:
The magenta/green concentric circles can probably be overlooked but still not encouraging.Is this only in the JPEG. I don't have the subscription to the mirrorless section but it seems Lloyd meant the 8-bit lossy compression. That would mean JPEG. It's interesting to know if it also happens in RAW, and I wonder why no one has noticed that before.
And RAW from Sony is compressed, but lossless. This is the same with any Sony cam I think, and I have not seen anyone complains about that.
Happens in both raw and jpeg from what I can tell. Even the shading comp 'on' barely mitigates it.
'Lossless' is a marketing term I think. Others (Sigma/Nikon are recording files sizes over 60mb) there is some information being lost.
MaxBerlin wrote
Philber - the worst issue I've seen documented is the 'orange peel' and the banding and pixelation around red/green transition areas.The magenta/green concentric circles can probably be overlooked but still not encouraging.
And RAW from Sony is compressed, but lossless. This is the same with any Sony cam I think, and I have not seen anyone complains about that.
Happens in both raw and jpeg from what I can tell. Even the shading comp 'on' barely mitigates it.
'Lossless' is a marketing term I think. Others (Sigma/Nikon are recording files sizes over 60mb) there is some information being lost.
Dec 08, 2013 at 01:40 PM
p.1 #13Bailing on the A7r....
MaxBerlin wrote:
The other issue is around the 8 bit compression the A7r uses across the board - no RAW file is above 37.4mb - the D800e can generate files twice this size on complicated photos. What is being lost in that 30mb ? Or being compressed (pixelated/banded) ?
When saving the A7r RAW files to TIFF from LR5.3RC and importing them to PS6 the TIFF files are 206MB in size in 16 Bits/channel.
Rich
The other issue is around the 8 bit compression the A7r uses across the board - no RAW file is above 37.4mb - the D800e can generate files twice this size on complicated photos. What is being lost in that 30mb ? Or being compressed (pixelated/banded) ?
When saving the A7r RAW files to TIFF from LR5.3RC and importing them to PS6 the TIFF files are 206MB in size in 16 Bits/channel.
Rich
Dec 08, 2013 at 01:42 PM
p.1 #14Bailing on the A7r....
Could someone be kind enough to test with a high IQ lens the possibility between raw image conversion of a red/green transition area between the Sony software and LR?
The goal would be to see if the issue can be reproduced and/or mitigated.
The goal would be to see if the issue can be reproduced and/or mitigated.
Dec 08, 2013 at 01:43 PM
p.1 #15Bailing on the A7r....
I had my D800 set to generate compressed files (~ 37-41MB on average) because the only meaningful thing the uncompressed files did for me was use more disk space.
I'd better not read what Lloyd has to say or I'll start seeing orangle peels where heretofore none have been spotted and will no doubt want to dump my A7r immediately.
The number one thing the A7r does better than my D800 is achieve focus using autofocus, and it's a better platform for handheld manual focus too, arguably also for tripod mounting due to the better life view and tilt LCD. These factors alone make the camera worth the price of admission, for me.
I'd better not read what Lloyd has to say or I'll start seeing orangle peels where heretofore none have been spotted and will no doubt want to dump my A7r immediately.
The number one thing the A7r does better than my D800 is achieve focus using autofocus, and it's a better platform for handheld manual focus too, arguably also for tripod mounting due to the better life view and tilt LCD. These factors alone make the camera worth the price of admission, for me.
Dec 08, 2013 at 01:43 PM
p.1 #16Bailing on the A7r....
Lossless is a technical term, not a marketing term. File size doesn't really mean that much, Sony just might have a better lossless compression algorithm than the others. It would surprise me though, I'd guess they are using a lossy compression until proven otherwise.
When reading Lloyd, you have to take his comments with a pinch of salt. He's looking for every fault he can find, because that's what his readers want him to do. He has unkind things to say about pretty much every camera and lens. That's just his review style. If you think this is bad, just check out what he's had to say about Fuji X...
Edited on Dec 08, 2013 at 01:46 PM · View previous versions
When reading Lloyd, you have to take his comments with a pinch of salt. He's looking for every fault he can find, because that's what his readers want him to do. He has unkind things to say about pretty much every camera and lens. That's just his review style. If you think this is bad, just check out what he's had to say about Fuji X...
Edited on Dec 08, 2013 at 01:46 PM · View previous versions
Dec 08, 2013 at 01:44 PM
p.1 #17Bailing on the A7r....
^ what michaelwatkins said.. 
Edited on Dec 08, 2013 at 01:46 PM · View previous versions
Edited on Dec 08, 2013 at 01:46 PM · View previous versions
Dec 08, 2013 at 01:46 PM
p.1 #18Bailing on the A7r....
hiepphotog wrote:
The magenta/green concentric circles can probably be overlooked but still not encouraging.Is this only in the JPEG. I don't have the subscription to the mirrorless section but it seems Lloyd meant the 8-bit lossy compression. That would mean JPEG. It's interesting to know if it also happens in RAW, and I wonder why no one has noticed that before.
And RAW from Sony is compressed, but lossless. This is the same with any Sony cam I think, and I have not seen anyone complains about that.
Sony does not use a lossless raw any longer (except possibly for the A99 as mentioned below). I have been complaining about a possible issue with Sony's lossy raw compression and a few of us believe we have seen evidence of a lack of smooth tonal transitions in, for instance, skies which can look posterized when pushed in processing. I was not aware that Lloyd had proven there is an issue but if he has, it would not surprise me. As I have mentioned previously, my non-lossy Sony a900 24MP raws are the same size as the lossy raws from the A7r. On the A900, Sony did offer the choice of a lossless raw and a lossy raw. Since then, Sony only offers a lossy raw, though some A99 users say that camera actually records lossless raws when shot in single frame mode.
Btw, Sony does admit they use lossy raw compression but claim the difference between it and their older lossless compression is not visible.
MaxBerlin wrote
Philber - the worst issue I've seen documented is the 'orange peel' and the banding and pixelation around red/green transition areas.The magenta/green concentric circles can probably be overlooked but still not encouraging.
And RAW from Sony is compressed, but lossless. This is the same with any Sony cam I think, and I have not seen anyone complains about that.
Sony does not use a lossless raw any longer (except possibly for the A99 as mentioned below). I have been complaining about a possible issue with Sony's lossy raw compression and a few of us believe we have seen evidence of a lack of smooth tonal transitions in, for instance, skies which can look posterized when pushed in processing. I was not aware that Lloyd had proven there is an issue but if he has, it would not surprise me. As I have mentioned previously, my non-lossy Sony a900 24MP raws are the same size as the lossy raws from the A7r. On the A900, Sony did offer the choice of a lossless raw and a lossy raw. Since then, Sony only offers a lossy raw, though some A99 users say that camera actually records lossless raws when shot in single frame mode.
Btw, Sony does admit they use lossy raw compression but claim the difference between it and their older lossless compression is not visible.
Dec 08, 2013 at 01:46 PM
p.1 #19Bailing on the A7r....
Get an a7 instead, then. Most enjoyable camera I've ever owned (apart from the Leica MP). Here in the UK we have an old saying - maybe you have a similar one - "the proof of the pudding is in the eating".
Dec 08, 2013 at 01:54 PM
p.1 #20Bailing on the A7r....
michaelwatkins wrote:
The number one thing the A7r does better than my D800 is achieve focus using autofocus, and it's a better platform for handheld manual focus too, arguably also for tripod mounting due to the better life view and tilt LCD. These factors alone make the camera worth the price of admission, for me.
I appreciate this POV - thanks Michael.
Have you done any side by side testing with the 800 and A7 ? - same lens ?
The number one thing the A7r does better than my D800 is achieve focus using autofocus, and it's a better platform for handheld manual focus too, arguably also for tripod mounting due to the better life view and tilt LCD. These factors alone make the camera worth the price of admission, for me.
I appreciate this POV - thanks Michael.
Have you done any side by side testing with the 800 and A7 ? - same lens ?
Dec 08, 2013 at 01:58 PM