...and at this moment there's a huge debate going on at the bakers forum on what stove top oven is better the Kitchen Aid KD5 mark III or Electrolux EW300g?
boingyman wrote:
...and at this moment there's a huge debate going on at the bakers forum on what stove top oven is better the Kitchen Aid KD5 mark III or Electrolux EW300g?
The arguments seem half baked to me and some of the posters are rather crusty and most won't put their dough where their mouth is.
So, if they were released around March 2012, six months or so would put that around October 2012, no? I didn't twist your words around- feel free to re-read my unedited post above.
Yes, you are right about the release date of both cameras. I repeat that sales for the 5D III after release were simply poor but caught up after its price dropped. The D800(E) versions were the better seller first but slowed down now.
Pixel Perfect wrote:
The arguments seem half baked to me and some of the posters are rather crusty and most won't put their dough where their mouth is.
Pixel Perfect wrote:
The arguments seem half baked to me and some of the posters are rather crusty and most won't put their dough where their mouth is.
You're on a roll. Where are you from? With humour like that I suspect you're an ANZAC not danish.
Pixel Perfect wrote:
.... and most won't put their dough where their mouth is.
This is what I have always wondered about. The level of whining on supposedly "critical" sensor features is not matched by the zeal to buy the damn products that give them this.
sb in ak wrote:
Nikon really chose the low road there. Canon may be lacking state of the art sensors but at least their management seems willing to acknowledge problems when they occur. The handling of the 5D3 "light leak" issue vs. the D600 oil spot issue is one reason why I stay with Canon.
molson wrote:
To me, getting the exposure "right" means no blown highlights - other than small specular highlights which are okay.
I don't mind if the deepest shadows are slightly darker than the highlights - they're supposed to be that way in the real world.
well if you have a Canon you must select your exposure regarding a contrasty motive, with a Nikon you can expose after the high lights and have full color information and then adjust the results afterwards in CR or PS, it is called larger DR, 14 stops DR compared to 11-12
jamesmorophoto wrote:
no hatred, just disappointment and frustration.
Frustration in the fact that so many people are spreading flat out FALSE information about the D800 and the 5D3.
Canon has indeed conned you guys into buying a camera that is AT BEST, a 5D2.5--an incremental improvement.
you guys keep blabbing about the 5D3 in terms of 'superior ISO' performance', superior AF performance etc.
This simply is utterly FALSE.
THe d800 and the 5d3 are nearly identical in terms of high ISO performance WHEN YOU COMPARE THE RAW FILES.
In terms of AF performance, people keep harking back to a defect that affected a SMALL number of users AND was fixed nearly 1 year ago.--that this is even still brought up as a fault of the d800 is laughable. True, the canon has more AF points, but the d800's AF system is more sophisticated--by a long shot.
It's frustrating to keep seeing people refer to the the D800 as a landscape camera, and the 5D3 as a 'do it all'.
the D800 has outstanding AF performance and can be use to shoot sports and PJ events all day long. You can shoot extremely low light events with great success w/ this camera.
you canon users are still IN DENIAL that you've been handed yet another 'incremental improvement' to appease you, while every other camera manufacturer's sensor technology leaves canon in the dust. Yet you guys blab like the 5d3 is the best thing ever? better than anything else out there. best all-around. bla bla bla.
so you guys ramble about superior ISO and AF performance and loads of utter bullshit to make yourselves feel better about buying the FIXED VERSION OF THE 5D2, or a 5D2 that has a functioning AF system.
comparing image quality of the 5d3 to the exmoor sensor is like comparing a 5D2 to a medium format camera's IQ.
Feel free to spout off more nonsense, like the guy that claimed you can't take advantage of the resolution of the D800 w/o using a tripod, or the people that claim the D800 IQ is restricted by the nikon lenses available to it.
I can show you a shot w/ a sigma at 1.4 of a cat that takes up something like 30% of the frame. I can zoom in and see the blood vessels in its eyeballs, and this was shot handheld at 1.4 with a sigma lens.
This isn't about pushing shadows, it's about a camera that can shoot images that much more accurately reflect what the human eye can see.
I didn't want to jump ship to nikon, but canon has yet to show any glimmer of hope that they actually have any interest in their high end sensor market. nikon, on the other hand, has a camera with medium format IQ and the sophisticated AF system of a sports camera. This camera does far more than the 5D3. IQ, AF, ISO.
At Dpreview we have discussed this sensor subject many times and whats worry me is that there are no indications that Canon have invested any money in new sensor lines, money as 1.5 billion USD or more to keep up with Toshiba, Sony. Panasonic, etc etc. People who have been participated in these discussions is Bob Newman, Eric Fossum, John Sheehy, The_Suede and many many more. Eric Fossum http://ericfossum.com is known as the father of the active CMOS http://www.ericfossum.com/Patents/Full%20Patent%20List.htm and needs no presentation.
Canon needs gigantic investments to keep up with their sensor production or to decide to leave theirs in-house manufacturing and walk over to Sony, Toshiba, etc etc
I end up with some words from Eric Fossum
I dont think BSI has been developed for older technology nodes. It could be but that is an additional NRE cost factor that could be substantial. And, I am sure it is still an elastic market so that the volume at a higher price would be substantially lower which in turn affects the NRE amortization.
Still, personally I think it would be edge for someone like Canon to develop BSI to reinvigorate their technology position, if they could afford the investment.
Mikael Risedal wrote:
At Dpreview we have discussed this sensor subject many times and whats worry me is that there are no indications that Canon have invested any money in new sensor lines, money as 1.5 billion USD or more to keep up with Toshiba, Sony. Panasonic, etc etc. People who have been participated in these discussions is Bob Newman, Eric Fossum, John Sheehy, The_Suede and many many more. Eric Fossum http://ericfossum.com is known as the father of the active CMOS http://www.ericfossum.com/Patents/Full%20Patent%20List.htm and needs no presentation.
Canon needs gigantic investments to keep up with their sensor production or to decide to leave theirs in-house manufacturing and walk over to Sony, Toshiba, etc etc
I end up with some words from Eric Fossum
I dont think BSI has been developed for older technology nodes. It could be but that is an additional NRE cost factor that could be substantial. And, I am sure it is still an elastic market so that the volume at a higher price would be substantially lower which in turn affects the NRE amortization.
Still, personally I think it would be edge for someone like Canon to develop BSI to reinvigorate their technology position, if they could afford the investment....Show more →
Even this might be true, we have to admit that Nikon also has nothing better than Canon sensor-wise. Nikon simply was smart or lucky enough to hook onto Sony's Exmor sensor - Sony had the sensor but not the good FF tech for DSLRs at the time while Nikon needed or realized they can sell well a new sensor. We don't know if Canon simply was not interested at the time because they thought a high MP wouldn't fly or if Nikon outbid Canon for the sensor.
I remember that Canon presented a high MP sensor as prototype on an exhibit, so they might have worked at some point on an improvement of existing technology. Unfortunately management decided to move Canon in another photo direction with much more focus on video. And now? I simply don't know if they try to play catch-up now in regard to sensors or if they simply don't care. I guess next year will tell.
retrofocus wrote:
Even this might be true, we have to admit that Nikon also has nothing better than Canon sensor-wise. Nikon simply was smart or lucky enough to hook onto Sony's Exmor sensor - Sony had the sensor but not the good FF tech for DSLRs at the time while Nikon needed or realized they can sell well a new sensor. We don't know if Canon simply was not interested at the time because they thought a high MP wouldn't fly or if Nikon outbid Canon for the sensor.
I remember that Canon presented a high MP sensor as prototype on an exhibit, so they might have worked at some point on an improvement of existing technology. Unfortunately management decided to move Canon in another photo direction with much more focus on video. And now? I simply don't know if they try to play catch-up now in regard to sensors or if they simply don't care. I guess next year will tell. ...Show more →
Nikon and Sony have cooperation regarding the Sony sensor, so has Nikon also with their own sensor in D4 and that one is made by Renesas.
Nikon have in facts a better own sensor than Canon have, the D4 sensor which DXO ranks higher than 1dx sensor in all parameters. Go to DXO and compare D4 sensor and 1dx sensor.
regarding the 120Mp prototype from Canon, that sensor was stitched together from their line 2, the compact sensor line, and it is a costly operation and time consuming, prototype and more to show off, with Sonys tech today they can easily show off with a 500Mp stitched sensor
Mikael Risedal wrote:
Nikon and Sony have cooperation regarding the Sony sensor, so has Nikon also with their own sensor in D4 and that one is made by Renesas.
Nikon have in facts a better own sensor than Canon have, the D4 sensor which DXO ranks higher than 1dx sensor in all parameters. Go to DXO and compare D4 sensor and 1dx sensor.
regarding the 120Mp prototype from Canon, that sensor was stitched together from their line 2, the compact sensor line, and it is a costly operation and time consuming, prototype and more to show off, with Sonys tech today they can easily show off with a 500Mp stitched sensor...Show more →
I was more referring to a high MP sensor - you are right in regard to the Nikon D4, but it is a 16 MP sensor and compares not directly to the Exmor sensor specification.
It is correct what you stated about the prototype Canon sensor!
Paul Mo wrote:
Quite frankly, screw DxO. What matters is captivating images made - and being made they are by all marques.
Why? DxO makes good tests, what is wrong there? Of course marginal differences might not really affect IQ in the real world, but it is interesting still. DxO provides some parameters in their tests which are not provided by others (T-stop in lenses for example).
I've shot Canon since 1966 and am very heavily invested in Canon, but I recently picked up a d800E and a couple of nikon lenses and am very impressed...I really like the D800E...a lot. Because of what I have in Canon gear I wouldn't abandon Canon, but if I were just starting out.....
retrofocus wrote:
Why? DxO makes good tests, what is wrong there? Of course marginal differences might not really affect IQ in the real world, but it is interesting still. DxO provides some parameters in their tests which are not provided by others (T-stop in lenses for example).
Obsession with measurements is a very male thing. You're either the type that loves maths and evidence or you couldn't care less - admittedly I'm in the latter group.
DxO labs and its followers who use miniscule data points to try and prove technical superiority are a little sad, IMHO.
We are photographers not theoretical mathematicians.
It seems to be a Japanese company culture thing, not brand specific. Another Canon example was the 1D2 that had, what, a highlight issue or something - I forget - but Canon never admitted any problem but introduced the 1D2n as a fix. Pretty much like the D600-D610 fiasco (and no, I'm not apologizing for either company's lack of taking responsibility). My D800e had the left AF point problem and I was very annoyed that Nikon never announced an official fix nor recognized the problem. I had to send the camera in with a CD documenting the issue (using a test Thom Hogan had recommended) and it was fixed but c'mon, just man up, admit a problem and do whatever it takes to satisfy the folks who have spent a ton of cash for your product. Sheesh.
