Pixel Perfect wrote:
Now of course I think the cow has been milked dry and they will and must finally cater to the higher end. However, new sensor tech will be of benefit right through the range and shrug off suggestions Canon doesn't innovate, so I would hope they would migrate improvements right through the range.
I would agree. I don't have any doubt that Canon is developing new sensor technology. I also have no doubt that they will release it in their own time frame. Why would you rush this to market when the very people it is designed for aren't migrating to your competitors?
Frustration in the fact that so many people are spreading flat out FALSE information about the D800 and the 5D3.
Canon has indeed conned you guys into buying a camera that is AT BEST, a 5D2.5--an incremental improvement.
you guys keep blabbing about the 5D3 in terms of 'superior ISO' performance', superior AF performance etc.
This simply is utterly FALSE.
THe d800 and the 5d3 are nearly identical in terms of high ISO performance WHEN YOU COMPARE THE RAW FILES.
In terms of AF performance, people keep harking back to a defect that affected a SMALL number of users AND was fixed nearly 1 year ago.--that this is even still brought up as a fault of the d800 is laughable. True, the canon has more AF points, but the d800's AF system is more sophisticated--by a long shot.
It's frustrating to keep seeing people refer to the the D800 as a landscape camera, and the 5D3 as a 'do it all'.
the D800 has outstanding AF performance and can be use to shoot sports and PJ events all day long. You can shoot extremely low light events with great success w/ this camera.
you canon users are still IN DENIAL that you've been handed yet another 'incremental improvement' to appease you, while every other camera manufacturer's sensor technology leaves canon in the dust. Yet you guys blab like the 5d3 is the best thing ever? better than anything else out there. best all-around. bla bla bla.
so you guys ramble about superior ISO and AF performance and loads of utter bullshit to make yourselves feel better about buying the FIXED VERSION OF THE 5D2, or a 5D2 that has a functioning AF system.
comparing image quality of the 5d3 to the exmoor sensor is like comparing a 5D2 to a medium format camera's IQ.
Feel free to spout off more nonsense, like the guy that claimed you can't take advantage of the resolution of the D800 w/o using a tripod, or the people that claim the D800 IQ is restricted by the nikon lenses available to it.
I can show you a shot w/ a sigma at 1.4 of a cat that takes up something like 30% of the frame. I can zoom in and see the blood vessels in its eyeballs, and this was shot handheld at 1.4 with a sigma lens.
This isn't about pushing shadows, it's about a camera that can shoot images that much more accurately reflect what the human eye can see.
I didn't want to jump ship to nikon, but canon has yet to show any glimmer of hope that they actually have any interest in their high end sensor market. nikon, on the other hand, has a camera with medium format IQ and the sophisticated AF system of a sports camera. This camera does far more than the 5D3. IQ, AF, ISO.
jamesmorophoto wrote:
no hatred, just disappointment and frustration.
Frustration in the fact that so many people are spreading flat out FALSE information about the D800 and the 5D3.
Canon has indeed conned you guys into buying a camera that is AT BEST, a 5D2.5--an incremental improvement.
you guys keep blabbing about the 5D3 in terms of 'superior ISO' performance', superior AF performance etc.
This simply is utterly FALSE.
THe d800 and the 5d3 are nearly identical in terms of high ISO performance WHEN YOU COMPARE THE RAW FILES.
In terms of AF performance, people keep harking back to a defect that affected a SMALL number of users AND was fixed nearly 1 year ago.--that this is even still brought up as a fault of the d800 is laughable. True, the canon has more AF points, but the d800's AF system is more sophisticated--by a long shot.
It's frustrating to keep seeing people refer to the the D800 as a landscape camera, and the 5D3 as a 'do it all'.
the D800 has outstanding AF performance and can be use to shoot sports and PJ events all day long. You can shoot extremely low light events with great success w/ this camera.
you canon users are still IN DENIAL that you've been handed yet another 'incremental improvement' to appease you, while every other camera manufacturer's sensor technology leaves canon in the dust. Yet you guys blab like the 5d3 is the best thing ever? better than anything else out there. best all-around. bla bla bla.
so you guys ramble about superior ISO and AF performance and loads of utter bullshit to make yourselves feel better about buying the FIXED VERSION OF THE 5D2, or a 5D2 that has a functioning AF system.
comparing image quality of the 5d3 to the exmoor sensor is like comparing a 5D2 to a medium format camera's IQ.
Feel free to spout off more nonsense, like the guy that claimed you can't take advantage of the resolution of the D800 w/o using a tripod, or the people that claim the D800 IQ is restricted by the nikon lenses available to it.
I can show you a shot w/ a sigma at 1.4 of a cat that takes up something like 30% of the frame. I can zoom in and see the blood vessels in its eyeballs, and this was shot handheld at 1.4 with a sigma lens.
This isn't about pushing shadows, it's about a camera that can shoot images that much more accurately reflect what the human eye can see.
I didn't want to jump ship to nikon, but canon has yet to show any glimmer of hope that they actually have any interest in their high end sensor market. nikon, on the other hand, has a camera with medium format IQ and the sophisticated AF system of a sports camera. This camera does far more than the 5D3. IQ, AF, ISO.
I mostly agree. Still the D800 has a drawback in its LiveView performance compared to the MkIII but that's about it what I was able to see when testing both systems.
Don't worry about the false or unjustified statements here. It's Canon fanboys running out of excuses, so they make things up. Just ignore.
The D800e is an awesome camera. So is the 5D III. If you're struggling to take a picture with either or think the other is going going to make a huge improvement in the images you can create you're probably better off taking some classes.
tgrantster wrote:
The D800e is an awesome camera. So is the 5D III. If you're struggling to take a picture with either or think the other is going going to make a huge improvement in the images you can create you're probably better off taking some classes.
Thank you for bringing some words of wisdom to this thread.
jamesmorophoto wrote:
comparing image quality of the 5d3 to the exmoor sensor is like comparing a 5D2 to a medium format camera's IQ.
Sure, sure !
retrofocus wrote:
I mostly agree. Still the D800 has a drawback in its LiveView performance compared to the MkIII but that's about it what I was able to see when testing both systems.
Don't worry about the false or unjustified statements here. It's Canon fanboys running out of excuses, so they make things up. Just ignore.
Not to equate popularity with "better" but I do find it interesting that the 5D Mark III is currently #13 (and kit at #25) in DSLR popularity on Amazon, while the D800 sits at #37. This seems to contrast the launch in 2012. (On another note, the 6D is at #9 with the D610 at #39.) I wonder if Canon has been more aggressive with its pricing strategies over the holidays or what? I don't know what conclusions to draw from this, but it is a curiosity to me. For coming out swinging with a well-specced camera that's cheaper, the D800 doesn't appear to be killing the Canon in sales, at least not right now. Have that many people had the Koolaid?
jamesmorophoto wrote:
no hatred, just disappointment and frustration.
Frustration in the fact that so many people are spreading flat out FALSE information about the D800 and the 5D3.
Canon has indeed conned you guys into buying a camera that is AT BEST, a 5D2.5--an incremental improvement.
you guys keep blabbing about the 5D3 in terms of 'superior ISO' performance', superior AF performance etc.
This simply is utterly FALSE.
THe d800 and the 5d3 are nearly identical in terms of high ISO performance WHEN YOU COMPARE THE RAW FILES.
In terms of AF performance, people keep harking back to a defect that affected a SMALL number of users AND was fixed nearly 1 year ago.--that this is even still brought up as a fault of the d800 is laughable. True, the canon has more AF points, but the d800's AF system is more sophisticated--by a long shot.
It's frustrating to keep seeing people refer to the the D800 as a landscape camera, and the 5D3 as a 'do it all'.
the D800 has outstanding AF performance and can be use to shoot sports and PJ events all day long. You can shoot extremely low light events with great success w/ this camera.
you canon users are still IN DENIAL that you've been handed yet another 'incremental improvement' to appease you, while every other camera manufacturer's sensor technology leaves canon in the dust. Yet you guys blab like the 5d3 is the best thing ever? better than anything else out there. best all-around. bla bla bla.
so you guys ramble about superior ISO and AF performance and loads of utter bullshit to make yourselves feel better about buying the FIXED VERSION OF THE 5D2, or a 5D2 that has a functioning AF system.
comparing image quality of the 5d3 to the exmoor sensor is like comparing a 5D2 to a medium format camera's IQ.
Feel free to spout off more nonsense, like the guy that claimed you can't take advantage of the resolution of the D800 w/o using a tripod, or the people that claim the D800 IQ is restricted by the nikon lenses available to it.
I can show you a shot w/ a sigma at 1.4 of a cat that takes up something like 30% of the frame. I can zoom in and see the blood vessels in its eyeballs, and this was shot handheld at 1.4 with a sigma lens.
This isn't about pushing shadows, it's about a camera that can shoot images that much more accurately reflect what the human eye can see.
I didn't want to jump ship to nikon, but canon has yet to show any glimmer of hope that they actually have any interest in their high end sensor market. nikon, on the other hand, has a camera with medium format IQ and the sophisticated AF system of a sports camera. This camera does far more than the 5D3. IQ, AF, ISO.
James -- Your argumentative approach reminds me why I used to think Nikon zealots were such dickheads. I know now that isn't true, it's only a few people that deserve that title. Thanks for making FM a little more DPR-like. I hope you don't mind that I'm giving you a New Jersey accent and changing your favorite "you guys" to "yous guys" when I read your remarks.
sb in ak wrote:
Not to equate popularity with "better" but I do find it interesting that the 5D Mark III is currently #13 (and kit at #25) in DSLR popularity on Amazon, while the D800 sits at #37. This seems to contrast the launch in 2012. (On another note, the 6D is at #9 with the D610 at #39.) I wonder if Canon has been more aggressive with its pricing strategies over the holidays or what? I don't know what conclusions to draw from this, but it is a curiosity to me.
Yeah, that's interesting. To the extent that Amazon can be used as a fair proxy, it would seem to contradict those who predict (and have been predicting) Canon's imminent demise in the FF DSLR market.
sb in ak wrote:
Not to equate popularity with "better" but I do find it interesting that the 5D Mark III is currently #13 (and kit at #25) in DSLR popularity on Amazon, while the D800 sits at #37. This seems to contrast the launch in 2012. (On another note, the 6D is at #9 with the D610 at #39.) I wonder if Canon has been more aggressive with its pricing strategies over the holidays or what? I don't know what conclusions to draw from this, but it is a curiosity to me. For coming out swinging with a well-specced camera that's cheaper, the D800 doesn't appear to be killing the Canon in sales, at least not right now. Have that many people had the Koolaid? ...Show more →
Not surprising at all - I stated it recently in a different post. When the MkIII was announced, it was sitting on the shelves because most were unwilling to spend the $3500 for it. The D800(E) came with a much more aggressive price about $500 cheaper than the MkIII. So people vested in Nikon gear had a much easier time to jump on a really innovative camera, while you had to pay more for the MkIII which came with the same sensor as in the MkII and upgraded mostly the AF, and higher ISO capabilities. Looking into the Amazon charts 6 months after release of both of the cameras, you found exactly this trend - the D800(E) was a hot seller while the MkIII was fairly at the bottom.
Currently people interested in the D800(E) camera series already have it, but since the price of the MkIII is about $2700, then Canon users started upgrading. So now simply the MkIII sells better than the D800 because people can justify the upgrade better for this price than before. In addition Canon simply delays (willingly or unwillingly) a new 5D MkIV with a better sensor, so people have no choice to go with the MkIII (or the 6D).
This is exactly what I am seeing in my photo groups - first several Nikon shooters upgraded to the D800 and D800E, nobody at the time went for a MkIII. Now it is vice-versa - the Nikon users already are vested in the new FF camera, while people in the Canon camp more recently upgraded in larger numbers to the MkIII (to say numbers, five bought the MkIII, one bought the 6D recently). This trend was and is represented in the Amazon sales charts.
sb in ak wrote:
Not to equate popularity with "better" but I do find it interesting that the 5D Mark III is currently #13 (and kit at #25) in DSLR popularity on Amazon, while the D800 sits at #37. This seems to contrast the launch in 2012. (On another note, the 6D is at #9 with the D610 at #39.) I wonder if Canon has been more aggressive with its pricing strategies over the holidays or what? I don't know what conclusions to draw from this, but it is a curiosity to me. For coming out swinging with a well-specced camera that's cheaper, the D800 doesn't appear to be killing the Canon in sales, at least not right now. Have that many people had the Koolaid? ...Show more →
The D600 fiasco may have left a bitter taste in many users minds. D610 was Nikon's way of washing their hands of the problem they still deny. Just release a minor update with new mirror box and leave the D600 users swinging in the breeze. Not surpirsed it's down @ #39 compared to 6D's #9.
Pixel Perfect wrote:
The D600 fiasco may have left a bitter taste in many users minds. D610 was Nikon's way of washing their hands of the problem they still deny. Just release a minor update with new mirror box and leave the D600 users swinging in the breeze. Not surprised it's down @ #39 compared to 6D's #9.
Nikon really chose the low road there. Canon may be lacking state of the art sensors but at least their management seems willing to acknowledge problems when they occur. The handling of the 5D3 "light leak" issue vs. the D600 oil spot issue is one reason why I stay with Canon.
retrofocus wrote:
Not surprising at all - I stated it recently in a different post. When the MkIII was announced, it was sitting on the shelves because most were unwilling to spend the $3500 for it. The D800(E) came with a much more aggressive price about $500 cheaper than the MkIII. So people vested in Nikon gear had a much easier time to jump on a really innovative camera, while you had to pay more for the MkIII which came with the same sensor as in the MkII and upgraded mostly the AF, and higher ISO capabilities. Looking into the Amazon charts 6 months after release of both of the cameras, you found exactly this trend - the D800(E) was a hot seller while the MkIII was fairly at the bottom.
Currently people interested in the D800(E) camera series already have it, but since the price of the MkIII is about $2700, then Canon users started upgrading. So now simply the MkIII sells better than the D800 because people can justify the upgrade better for this price than before. In addition Canon simply delays (willingly or unwillingly) a new 5D MkIV with a better sensor, so people have no choice to go with the MkIII (or the 6D).
This is exactly what I am seeing in my photo groups - first several Nikon shooters upgraded to the D800 and D800E, nobody at the time went for a MkIII. Now it is vice-versa - the Nikon users already are vested in the new FF camera, while people in the Canon camp more recently upgraded in larger numbers to the MkIII (to say numbers, five bought the MkIII, one bought the 6D recently). This trend was and is represented in the Amazon sales charts. ...Show more →
I'm afraid your memory isn't serving you well, retro. Do a search for "amazon sales rank" in the 2012 Canon Gear forum. There are several threads- most of which you participated in- that discuss the sales ranks for D800 and 5D3 from release onwards. In about October 2012, six to seven months after release, the 5D3 (in various configurations) jumped the D800 (in various configurations) in Amazon's ranks. Since we can't retroactively check Amazon's ranks, these archived threads are all we have to go by. In none of them does the 5D3 rank, as you say, "fairly at the bottom." It has generally stayed in a close range, and that doesn't suggest wild demand swings due to pricing.
mitesh wrote:
I'm afraid your memory isn't serving you well, retro. Do a search for "amazon sales rank" in the 2012 Canon Gear forum. There are several threads- most of which you participated in- that discuss the sales ranks for D800 and 5D3 from release onwards. In about October 2012, six to seven months after release, the 5D3 (in various configurations) jumped the D800 (in various configurations) in Amazon's ranks. Since we can't retroactively check Amazon's ranks, these archived threads are all we have to go by. In none of them does the 5D3 rank, as you say, "fairly at the bottom." It has generally stayed in a close range, and that doesn't suggest wild demand swings due to pricing.
2012 was already a turning point, I agree. But if you check as I said 6 months after the release of both cameras (which I stated above) - which was obviously NOT in 2012 - it was as I said above. Please cite me correctly above and don't twist my words around.
It's always curious threads like this, opinion flying about, elevating levels of anger, schoolyard name calling tending to finish attempted debate. The simple 'fact' being not all need/want huge pixel counts, high FPS or a multitude of responsive AF points.
For many on this forum it's the 'act', getting out to see a world many are blind to. And for some the 'best' tool in hand is the one that becomes invisible while in use, and/or assists when our physical being fails us. Once out and about it's discovery, the smile brought forth, passions flowing as image is seen, captured, refined and finally displayed, that matter.
Brand loyalty, who's better or best, is for the individual to decide, to use, to exploit. Projecting one's own needs as argument/debate naturally skews fact, shades truth and disregards another's' experience.
Bitterness robes us of harmony. With body, fist, teeth clinched, not even the best IS/VR, sturdy tripod, could manage a sharp image, how could that state of mind allow focus, stillness and purpose. Passions run deep here on FM, how about rising above the replete angry tone, the need to resort to 'schoolyard' speak..
retrofocus wrote:
2012 was already a turning point, I agree. But if you check as I said 6 months after the release of both cameras (which I stated above) - which was obviously NOT in 2012 - it was as I said above.
So, if they were released around March 2012, six months or so would put that around October 2012, no? I didn't twist your words around- feel free to re-read my unedited post above.
