grahamb3 wrote:
I've performed my own vibration tests. I've read the vibration tests of others. If Lloyd doesn't explain that any vibration is very small, and in practical use isn't anything to worry about, he's spreading FUD.
I'd be much more interested if Lloyd was comparing large prints, A2 and larger, between the a7r, and Canon and Nikon full frames. If he's not blown away by the crispness, dynamic range, and color of the a7r prints, he's doing something wrong.
Graham
I completely agree the A7R is terrific shutter shock or no.
grahamb3 wrote:
I've performed my own vibration tests. I've read the vibration tests of others. If Lloyd doesn't explain that any vibration is very small, and in practical use isn't anything to worry about, he's spreading FUD.
Graham
It shouldn't be there at all. For 3000 dollars you expect a flawless camera.
wiseguy010 wrote:
It shouldn't be there at all. For 3000 dollars you expect a flawless camera.
Shutter vibration is there in nearly every camera in one form or another. It's magnified by cameras with high megapixel sensors. With the D800, you can mask it via delay and mirror lockup. However, if you didn't use delay and mirror lockup and kept firing away on a tripod, you will also see it on a D800. I hear it's there in $7k Leica cameras. It's there in $20-40k medium format cameras that use focal plane shutter. The only true way to get rid of it is to use leaf shutters and electronic global shutters. I did myself a sanity check with the test I did today because the uproar is getting louder, and I wanted to see it for myself. What I saw is something that we've been living with already. At least on the 2 lens I was concerned about, I'm satisfied. For 100mm and longer lenses? I'll just avoid those for this camera.
btw, I will also point out, price means nothing. From all the threads I read in m43 land, it's a lot worst in cameras where the sensor and shutters are only 1/4 sized of the A7R, and a lot of people complain they can't get vibration-less shots with nearly any lens, including the 12mm wide angle. Yet, for the most part m43 owners seem very happy with their cameras. I think when we all stop being delirious that these new Sony cameras are not our perfect vision of a camera, we'll find we can live with it.
Anyway, there is a work around for those who are living with it. Sony just needs to implement it in their firmware.
douglasf13 wrote:
The problem is that you can lock the mirror up on DSLRs for critical sharpness on a tripod, but you can't do anything to prevent the vibrations with the A7R. Handheld, it doesn't seem to be a big issue.
On a DSLR this will only work fully, if the DSLR supports electronic first curtain. Sadly Nikon doesn't, not even in the live view mode.
bjornthun wrote:
On a DSLR this will only work fully, if the DSLR supports electronic first curtain. Sadly Nikon doesn't, not even in the live view mode.
DSLs don't have to close the second shutter curtain to start an exposure like MILCs do and the vibration from the first curtain at the start of an exposure won't resonate early enough to affect the exposure for the normally affected shutter speeds.
bjornthun wrote:
On a DSLR this will only work fully, if the DSLR supports electronic first curtain. Sadly Nikon doesn't, not even in the live view mode.
Agreed, if we're talking about shooting in live view, but, if you shoot without live view, the shutter doesn't need to shut first, as it would already be shut.
I am confused, is this a reference to a D800? Oh, I see - hostility-induced price inflation!
You mean, like a proper implementation of LV, or an EVF, or perhaps something you don't require a man servant to carry for you, that does not resemble a flotation device, or something that wisely restricts you to F mount lenses?
That kind of flawless? The've all got 'flaws', sad to say, and it's subject to definition. It's just release-time rock throwing..
'For 100mm and longer lenses? I'll just avoid those for this camera.'
douglasf13 wrote:
Agreed, if we're talking about shooting in live view, but, if you shoot without live view, the shutter doesn't need to shut first, as it would already be shut.
I've had problems with vibrations ftom the shutter both in liveview and mirror-lock-up mode. This happens mostly with long lenses like the AF-S 300/4 and Ai-S 400/5.6 lenses in the shutter speed range 1 sec - 1/125 sec. Two point support helps or just switching to a thicker lens like the Ai-P 500/4 helps. With Sony A7 or the Nex-7 the problem is completely gone when using EFC. All of this using a Benro c4770t tripod and ballhead. So for long lenses, Sony with EFC is always preferable over Nikon whether using MLU or liveview. So I've started avoiding Nikon camera bodies altogether for long lenses on a tripod. EFC also makes the use of lighter lenses like the Ai-S 400/5.6 much easier and that lens is good for carrying since it weighs a mere 1200 grams. For me the problems with vibrations is solved using Sony and in addition I get the EVF that I prefer over the OVF for manual focusing. There really is no looking back.
bjornthun wrote:
I've had problems with vibrations ftom the shutter both in liveview and mirror-lock-up mode. This happens mostly with long lenses like the AF-S 300/4 and Ai-S 400/5.6 lenses in the shutter speed range 1 sec - 1/125 sec. Two point support helps or just switching to a thicker lens like the Ai-P 500/4 helps. With Sony A7 or the Nex-7 the problem is completely gone when using EFC. All of this using a Benro c4770t tripod and ballhead. So for long lenses, Sony with EFC is always preferable over Nikon whether using MLU or liveview. So I've started avoiding Nikon camera bodies altogether for long lenses on a tripod. EFC also makes the use of lighter lenses like the Ai-S 400/5.6 much easier and that lens is good for carrying since it weighs a mere 1200 grams. For me the problems with vibrations is solved using Sony and in addition I get the EVF that I prefer over the OVF for manual focusing. There really is no looking back. ...Show more →
Oh, I agree. I don't think I would buy a mirrorless with a focal plane shutter without EFCS, at this point.
mcbroomf wrote:
Joseph Holmes wrote an article for SAR on vibration. He is using a 24 oz weight attached to the base of the camera to eliminate the problem.
I saw that. I was already aware that the camera was bouncing around and that was the cause of the vibration issues with the A7r. We will have to see if Sony does anything to address these problems. Earlier in the thread I have offered some means of dealing with the issues. However, as I pointed out and Joseph pointed out, things may well improve with the introduction of the RRS L bracket and the equivalent. As I mentioned above we could lock the camera in place and I will try that option upon receipt of my RRS L bracket. Before reading Joseph's article I had already thought of attaching a weight to the bottom of the camera. In fact I am trying to think of ways of using an Arca Swiss type QR clamp attached to a weight placed below the RRS L bracket to add the necessary mass to the camera. Additionally, rather than having to carry an extra weight when using longer lenses I will be thinking of ways to attach something normally carried in my camera bag that I can attach to RRS Arca Swiss QR clamp or one of my Back to Back ProMediaGear clamps. Weight and volume are always an issue when hiking, backpacking, and carrying equipment. So, like Light Weight Backpackers we try to find ways that equipment can perform multi functions to keep weight and volume down.
I wonder if some judiciously arranged elastic bands could be placed at the camera/lens connection and down to the tripod to help dampening. It would be best at the end of the lens but of course would add stress to the mount.
I've read a couple of other forums/posts/comments/opinions which in general tend to say "all camera systems have vibration issues, work around and get over it". Indeed I remember thinking I had a bad 250mm Bronica ETS lens many years back and only got suspicious when I replaced it (and got a 200mm) only to find the same problem. Bean bag to the rescue ...
As an idle task I thought I'd take a look at my exposure times using exif data in LR. For ME this is NOT an accurate way of looking to see how much of a problem I'd have if I owned an A7r because I shoot alt lenses almost exclusively without chips, so I very rarely have lens length info. Most posts I've seen suggest that this issue is worse on longer length/weight lenses, but if you do have lens data you could do a similar examination culling WA lenses for example.
In any case, ~2000 shots (keepers) with shutter speeds 1/60 to 1/200 coloured in red. Looks like I'd be in trouble
wiseguy010 wrote:
For me this would be unacceptable for a very expensive camera like the A7r. Even when it is not the 3000 dollars I first mentioned.
If Nikon or Canon had this issues with one of its camera's they would be killed by the masses.
Very strange that with this new Sony people are quite easy to move it under the carpet as if it is just a minor issue.
You do realize that this is a mass and size issue with the shutter due to the lack of a first electronic shutter! We have had vibration issues with cameras some more than others for the 40 years of my shooting of 35mm cameras. We have found ways of combating the issues as long as I remember and we will for this camera again.
This is one of those issues caused by the extremely light and small size of the camera with this particular shutter arrangement. Canon and Nikon do not have cameras of this size and weight but they have had issues with vibration with their cameras. But, this is and will be a relatively easy and solvable issue with probably only minor inconvenience of ways to absorb vibration and/or use some additional weight. If Sony can resolve some of the issue with a firmware update so much the better.
My last test! A7r Nikon 70-200 2.8 V2 at 125th of a second. Camera mounted using the tripod foot on the lens with my lightweight carry around tripod. I use the cable release with no extra camera support. Shot at 200mm
wiseguy010 wrote:
For me this would be unacceptable for a very expensive camera like the A7r. Even when it is not the 3000 dollars I first mentioned.
If Nikon or Canon had this issues with one of its camera's they would be killed by the masses.
Very strange that with this new Sony people are quite easy to move it under the carpet as if it is just a minor issue.
The fact is that all cameras with only a mechanical focal plane shutter will have this vibration issue to some extent, even when using MLU. The tiny but fast moving mass of the shutter curtain is enough, and all usual techniques like sturdy tripods etc. apply. So electronic first curtain is the real development here. Let's hope that Nikon (and Canon if they don't already have it) include this feature in their upcoming cameras.
The issue isn't new at all but I think it has emerged more clearly with the high megapixel count cameras and the different feature sets of the A7 and A7R.
wiseguy010 wrote:
For me this would be unacceptable for a very expensive camera like the A7r. Even when it is not the 3000 dollars I first mentioned.
If Nikon or Canon had this issues with one of its camera's they would be killed by the masses.
Very strange that with this new Sony people are quite easy to move it under the carpet as if it is just a minor issue.
Canon and Nikon suffers from mirror vibration. I spent years trying to figure out how to control it handheld. I just ended up adopting mirror lockup for important shots, even when handheld. Look, I knew this was going to happen. I was alone, stating my concern over lack of EFC on such a light camera weeks before anyone received theirs. All of us have THREE choices. 1, Return the camera. 2, Keep using it and hope Sony gives us the firmware to help alleviate it. 3, And lastly, we can simmer at Sony over this. It's not like those of us who will continue to use this camera aren't annoyed. We are, but what good is getting worked up over it? Lloyd and others are pressuring Sony.
