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Archive 2013 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses

  
 
wfrank
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p.54 #1 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


edwardkaraa wrote:
I'm not sure about you guys, but I'm loosing hope of using RF lenses on these cameras.

I decided to wait until end of 2014, and see what Zeiss is planning to introduce for this mount. By then, I should be able to get the A8R with the 58mp sensor that automatically adjusts the angle of the microlenses according to the lens you're using


I am torn. My simplified decision matrix may or may not explain key points that matters to me :-)



Time goes left to right. I might very well go for the A7 anyway but realize that it probably means going largish on lenses. Cant have it all yet again.



Edited on Oct 31, 2013 at 04:08 PM · View previous versions



Oct 31, 2013 at 04:08 PM
Makten
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p.54 #2 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


rera wrote:
Huff's wrap up [1]. I find it amusing how he links to his review of zm35 that contains 100% corner crop yet a) does not give a single full-size jpeg of m lens and b) shows full-size FE 35/2.8 brick-wall shot yet not same shot of any m-lens. Anyways, as said in this thread countless times truth will come via independent tests once cameras will start shipping. And thanks to Ron once again.

[1] http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2013/10/31/my-1st-look-wrap-up-of-the-sony-a7-and-a7r-cameras/


I just wrote a lengthy post about a lot of what has been discussed here, and when I submitted it, I got a notice that "you don't have permission... blablabla". WTF?



Oct 31, 2013 at 04:08 PM
shelt
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p.54 #3 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


Makten wrote:
And if that lens doesn't work very well, you also have the option for a smallish 40 mm SLR lens, like the Konica 40/1.8, the Voigtländer 40/2 or the Olympus 40/2. I almost forgot that I have the Konica, which is sharp and contrasty on film, so I'll have to get an adapter for that one. Bokeh is nervous at times, but distortion is low.

This is of course OT, but I just want to remind you all about the alternatives. I'm also gonna try the OM 28/3.5 and 35/2.8, that are very small.


I have the Konica Hexanon AR 40/1.8. It's fantastic on the NEX-6&7, so should be very good on the a7r. And...the 40/1.8 + adapter is almost exactly the same size as the Summilux 35 + adapter. And, it's much lighter and $5,100 cheaper too




Edited on Oct 31, 2013 at 04:53 PM · View previous versions



Oct 31, 2013 at 04:32 PM
Kit Laughlin
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p.54 #4 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


makten:

Voigtländer 40/2 or the Olympus 40/2

I had forgotten these two completely; I do have a bunch of other Oly OM lenses, too, now that I think about it. Great; thanks for that, KL

Edited on Oct 31, 2013 at 04:55 PM · View previous versions



Oct 31, 2013 at 04:38 PM
serhan_
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p.54 #5 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


I couldn't tell much from his samples/previews other then what he's been saying A7 better with rf lenses below and both are good with 35mm and above...

rera wrote:
Huff's wrap up [1]. I find it amusing how he links to his review of zm35 that contains 100% corner crop yet a) does not give a single full-size jpeg of m lens and b) shows full-size FE 35/2.8 brick-wall shot yet not same shot of any m-lens. Anyways, as said in this thread countless times truth will come via independent tests once cameras will start shipping. And thanks to Ron once again.

[1] http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2013/10/31/my-1st-look-wrap-up-of-the-sony-a7-and-a7r-cameras/




Oct 31, 2013 at 04:39 PM
coffeeshakes
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p.54 #6 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


Seems to tell us nothing yet again about performance between the two sensors regarding smearing, unless I missed something. Is there a direct correlation between color shift and smearing, or is that unknown?


Oct 31, 2013 at 05:40 PM
Calidreamin
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p.54 #7 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


It might be interesting to try the new SONY app called Lens Compensation app – it’s one of Sonys playmemoriescameraapps especially for 28mm and wider… Looks like we can create profiles. In fact it looks like the perfect problem solver, of course if the edges are not smeared. If you search you will find it as the top result in google there’s a video on youtube as well. Wonder how this would effect 28mm m-mount and below? Maybe with this app we can have our cake and eat it too with the A7R…



Oct 31, 2013 at 05:44 PM
ebookman
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p.54 #8 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


The lens compensation only works for JPEG and does not alter RAW files according to my understanding.


Oct 31, 2013 at 06:01 PM
Calidreamin
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p.54 #9 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


ebookman wrote:
The lens compensation only works for JPEG and does not alter RAW files according to my understanding.


DAMN - Oh well... thanks man.



Oct 31, 2013 at 06:01 PM
theSuede
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p.54 #10 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


coffeeshakes wrote:
Seems to tell us nothing yet again about performance between the two sensors regarding smearing, unless I missed something. Is there a direct correlation between color shift and smearing, or is that unknown?


It is known, but complex. There are several parameters that control the two.
Generally, the color shift is when the microlenses fail to direct the incoming light - through the color filter layer - into the correct receiving photodiode. When light comes in from an angle, certain conditions can make it so that light passes through one color filter volume but then into the neighboring cell in stead.

The major par of this is actually caused by having microlenses that are to good...

A microlens that concentrates more light to the center of each pixel (where the photodiode is most sensitive) gives higher overall sensitivity, and less aliasing (higher effective usage of the sensor surface). But ONLY when the light is coming in "straight on", or from a slight angle. Since a stronger microlens is "higher", or more bulbous, light coming in from the side at a lower angle is affected in another way - it gets no redirection at all, but passes straight through.



For cases B and C, a higher microlens directs more light to the correct photodiode [than the lower microlens, or no ML at all]
For case A, it all goes wrong. Since the lens is high, you get no refractive angle at all, and the ray passes through without being directed down to the correct pixel.

For smearing and blurring, that an entirely different discussion, mainly dependent on the filter stack above the microlenses. How thick each individual layer is, and their relative distances. And of course if the layers are individually anti-reflection coated (which they in general aren't...). In general, thinner is better (but worse for color), and you want to keep air-spaces and flat glass to a certain ratio to minimize lateral CA.



Oct 31, 2013 at 06:30 PM
douglasf13
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p.54 #11 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


theSuede wrote:
It is known, but complex. There are several parameters that control the two.
Generally, the color shift is when the microlenses fail to direct the incoming light - through the color filter layer - into the correct receiving photodiode. When light comes in from an angle, certain conditions can make it so that light passes through one color filter volume but then into the neighboring cell in stead.

The major par of this is actually caused by having microlenses that are to good...

A microlens that concentrates more light to the center of each pixel (where the photodiode is most sensitive) gives
...Show more

That makes sense. It seems that is why Leica chooses to focus on smearing with the M digitals, and fix the color in software, no?



Oct 31, 2013 at 06:35 PM
elroos
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p.54 #12 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


slungu wrote:
I am very pleased with the ZM18 in terms of both color shift and non-smearing. My problem is with it being sensitive to thin adapters even with the F4.0 aperture.


That's good news!
But what do you mean with : sensitive to thin adapters?



Oct 31, 2013 at 07:02 PM
uhoh7
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p.54 #13 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


ebookman wrote:
The lens compensation only works for JPEG and does not alter RAW files according to my understanding.

Wrong, according to my investigation. Multiple sources tell me: 1) Distortion is jpeg only. 2) colorshift is written to raw, and whether it is seen will depend on the editor. Sony software sees it.

Brian Smith:
@uhoh007 anything applied to RAWs in-camera normally shows up Sony Image Data Converter and DXO but not LR, PS or C1

another source was very clear in saying that distorion actually was only raw, but can't find it now. Might have been here.

Should not say you are "wrong", because who knows? But it's a good question that has come up several times and that's what I'm getting as the answer.



Oct 31, 2013 at 07:02 PM
snowboarder
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p.54 #14 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


Makten wrote:
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2013/10/31/my-1st-look-wrap-up-of-the-sony-a7-and-a7r-cameras/

I just wrote a lengthy post about a lot of what has been discussed here, and when I submitted it, I got a notice that "you don't have permission... blablabla". WTF?


I'm sorry, I'm just gonna say that, but this guy Steve H. is a complete moron. He promised
a full report, "I'm going to Nashville, will test both cameras with a range of wide M lenses, blah, blah"
and he keeps posting some Otus shots nobody gives a damn about.
My suspicion is there are clearly some problems and he is paid by Sony (at least he gets affiliate links
income) so he is VERY careful to say anything. He has ZERO reputation, nada. Just another paid commercial
so called "blogger". Very disappointing. I'm honestly not sure what to do.
What's the point of keeping my Leica glass if this camera gives better results with the native lenses?
I'm not interested in any Leica camera, I don't believe they will ever release anything worth buying.
Really disappointing



Oct 31, 2013 at 10:05 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.54 #15 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


One thing to keep in mind is that the Leica M does show strong red shift with wides. It relies heavily on lens profiles to correct it. I'm not sure about smearing but I feel it might have more of that than the M9 but probably most users would attribute that to the higher mp count. So the question, do you really want to be one of the first to own the A7/R? Or would you prefer to wait a month or two until a serious reviewer does a comprehensive test between the M, A7 and A7R to see what is really going on? I suspect that the A7R will be quite similar to the M, meaning no to little smearing and heavy red shift. So far I am sure the best camera for both these issues is my trusty M9, so I'm not really in a hurry to upgrade to an M or a Sony, but if my suspicion is correct, I will certainly go for the A7R instead of the M.


Oct 31, 2013 at 10:13 PM
soarfm
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p.54 #16 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


I think we may have reached the point where its not so much an upgrade as something different. I have the M9. It prints beautifully at my standard size of 13x19 and will easily go larger.

The A7r will take some, if not all of my M lenses. I can fix red shift easy in Capture One and the A7r that I have on order is not meant to replace my M9, but to augment it.

We live in good times.

edwardkaraa wrote:
One thing to keep in mind is that the Leica M does show strong red shift with wides. It relies heavily on lens profiles to correct it. I'm not sure about smearing but I feel it might have more of that than the M9 but probably most users would attribute that to the higher mp count. So the question, do you really want to be one of the first to own the A7/R? Or would you prefer to wait a month or two until a serious reviewer does a comprehensive test between the M, A7 and A7R to see what
...Show more



Oct 31, 2013 at 10:22 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.54 #17 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


Hi soarfm, it would be great if you can post some M9 shots in the Leica picture thread!

soarfm wrote:
I think we may have reached the point where its not so much an upgrade as something different. I have the M9. It prints beautifully at my standard size of 13x19 and will easily go larger.

The A7r will take some, if not all of my M lenses. I can fix red shift easy in Capture One and the A7r that I have on order is not meant to replace my M9, but to augment it.

We live in good times.





Oct 31, 2013 at 10:38 PM
serhan_
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p.54 #18 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


Here you go:
Steve Huff: Quick Halloween Post! A7r and Voigtlander 21 1.8 rock it out!

uhoh7 wrote:
53 pages and we may have our first UAW finalist?
412 grams (ugh)
Huff review:
http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2013/05/13/the-voigtlander-21-1-8-lens-review-by-steve-huff/
pretty friggin good review btw

Huff, like our own sebboh, are UWA snobs "not my thing", but trailer trash like moi luvvvvvvvvv them

I would look for used prices on this lens to stabilise......




Oct 31, 2013 at 11:03 PM
carstenw
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p.54 #19 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


Oh, way to go, Huffster, put on a wide-angle M lens, and then shoot only photos with nothing in the corners, or convert to B&W so we cannot see the colour cast. Mega-duh!


Nov 01, 2013 at 07:50 AM
Jman13
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p.54 #20 · A7/A7r - performance with WA RF lenses


snowboarder wrote:
I'm sorry, I'm just gonna say that, but this guy Steve H. is a complete moron. He promised
a full report, "I'm going to Nashville, will test both cameras with a range of wide M lenses, blah, blah"
and he keeps posting some Otus shots nobody gives a damn about.
My suspicion is there are clearly some problems and he is paid by Sony (at least he gets affiliate links
income) so he is VERY careful to say anything. He has ZERO reputation, nada. Just another paid commercial
so called "blogger".


Oh give me a break. Huff may not be to everyone's liking (he tends to be overly enthusiastic at times), but jumping to your accusations just sounds like utter fanboy talk. I see it all the time on tech websites. Apple gets a good review, Android fanboys rage that they must be paid by Apple...not that, you know, the product might actually be good. Vice versa the Apple fanboys come out, same thing.

Do you not notice that in this preview, on multiple occasions he remarks how the A7 and A7r aren't as good as the Olympus E-M1 in certain areas....AF nowhere near as fast as E-M1 in low light, build quality not as good as E-M1, doesn't feels as good in the hand as the E-M1. That doesn't sound like someone who's a paid Sony shill. If you read his site a lot, you know if anything he's a Leica fanboy. Why didn't he go full into M lenses? Don't know....

But I know what I'd do in a scenario where I had limited time to test a whole range of things and an item popped up such as certain M lenses acting poor: I'd hold back until I had a chance to REALLY test it.

You don't want to take a shot with one M lens that shows major corner shift and declare that the cameras suck with wide angle M lenses, only to find out that it only happens with THAT lens, and only in certain circumstances. Then you have to walk it back, and that's WAY worse for someone than exercising caution in the first place.

He does do a summary saying "After using these cameras extensively with a variety of Leica M mount glass I can say that if you shoot 35mm and up, there will be no issues on the A7 or A7r with color fringing or magenta edges or focusing. If shooting lenses such as the crazy 12mm Voigtlander or the 15mm or a Zeiss 21 2.8 or Voigtlander 28 f/2 you will see different degrees of either Vignetting or Color issues on the edges." He then goes on to expound on his experience with the 50 Lux, then later says "But back to the wide-angle thing…some of these ultra wides lenses are just not meant to work well with full frame digital bodies. The good news is that if you like B&W you can use the 12, 15 or any ultra wide you like. Just convert to B&W and you will not have problems. Lol. But seriously, if you are primarily an ultra wide Leica M lens shooter, you may want to skip these bodies. If you shoot 35mm and up, to me, these two cameras put out better IQ than the Leica M. Quite the fear for Sony so I applaud them for that."

My guess is that he's saving more detailed writeup for his review when he has more than two days with the camera. But even getting that much detail given the short period of time is pretty good. (he also then posts samples from a bunch of Leica M lenses...they may not be the best at showing the corner shift, but they're there).

As someone who reviews gear regularly, I try and personally test out as many features and capabilities of a camera as possible, but often I may not have time to go in-depth on certain features. In those cases, I usually won't go in-depth in my review on that feature either because I'd rather be light on detail there than say something that ends up being blatantly wrong. I tend to focus on core features. If I were in this Nashville thing, my primary concern on a short-duration preview such as this would be testing absolute image quality, responsiveness and intuitiveness of the interface in daily shooting, performance with native lenses and autofocus performance, and then after that, if I had time, I'd get into some of the more obscure features, adapted lenses, etc.



Nov 01, 2013 at 08:26 AM
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