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Archive 2013 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses

  
 
Matt Grum
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p.99 #1 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


jcolwell wrote:
Regarding RAW files and compression, my understanding is that "lossless" compression works by removing "redundant" data. "Lossy" compression occurs when some kind of interpolation or extrapolation is involved, in order to reduce the amount of data that has to be saved. Ideally, there is no loss of important data; i.e. it's 'virtually' lossless. OTOH, I have lots of card space and lots of time for writing files, when I'm shooting the types of subjects for which I'd use an A7R.


You are right, I think Fred used quotes around the word "redundant" to indicate the data is effectively redundant, if not technically 100% redundant (which would make the compression truly lossless).

I'm less worried about the mandatory use of lossy compression now I've read up on how it's implemented. Basically the image is divided up into blocks and the brightness for each pixel is stored relative to the maximum and minimum brightness of the block. This means if a block represents a smooth transition, then the difference between the minimum and maximum value will be very small, meaning each pixel value will be stored very accurately with fine graduation. Pixels in blocks with strong contrasts will be recorded less accurately, but any errors will go unnoticed due to the strong contrast. The scheme prevents posterization by design.

I would still prefer the option to turn it off, but I'd much rather firmware upgrades target the shutter vibration issue!



Jan 03, 2014 at 09:01 AM
jcolwell
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p.99 #2 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Matt Grum wrote:
...
I would still prefer the option to turn it off...




Matt Grum wrote:
...I'd much rather firmware upgrades target the shutter vibration issue!


I don't think a firmware fix will do it. A different shutter design would.




Jan 03, 2014 at 09:21 AM
scott f
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p.99 #3 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


jcolwell wrote:


I don't think a firmware fix will do it. A different shutter design would.



Barring a shutter redesign I think a firmware fix should work. Can they not create a custom function so that instead of closing the shutter and opening immediately for the exposure, it closes, a delay occurs , then opens? As I understand it now , you are viewing your image on the evf/lcd, press the shutter , it closes and immediately opens to take the image? That initial slam close plus opens is likely where the vibration comes from?



Jan 03, 2014 at 09:58 AM
jcolwell
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p.99 #4 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


jcolwell wrote:

I don't think a firmware fix will do it. A different shutter design would.

scott f wrote:
Barring a shutter redesign I think a firmware fix should work. Can they not create a custom function so that instead of closing the shutter and opening immediately for the exposure, it closes, a delay occurs , then opens? As I understand it now , you are viewing your image on the evf/lcd, press the shutter , it closes and immediately opens to take the image? That initial slam close plus opens is likely where the vibration comes from?


That might work. Sort of like using the "silent shutter" mode on a DSLR, but different. It would introduce a shutter lag that might be very annoying. OTOH, my intended use for the A7R (if I get one) is primarily for scenic, architecture, and other mostly-static subjects, and so it would likely involve a remote release and/or release self-timer, anyway.

I'd much prefer an EFCS, but this could be an effective work-around, for at least some applications.



Jan 03, 2014 at 10:20 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.99 #5 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


KiboOst wrote:
I would really prefer an L bracket for A7r+grip :/


I agree but as far as I know no company is willing to make one so far...
Fred



Jan 03, 2014 at 11:21 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.99 #6 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Regarding shutter vibration and RAW compression:

I am optimistic that a firmware upgrade could improve these issues but there is a possibility that software may not be able to alter shutter events like delay. It all depends on how everything was designed. However, a simple solution would be to mimic mirror lock-up (MLU...even though there is no mirror
With "MLU" activated, once one presses the shutter button, the shutter would immediately close, then pressing the shutter again would take the picture. The delay time would be chosen by the photographer and it would depend on the focal length of the lenses used. This could fix the vibration issue because it seems to be caused by the first step (shutter closing).

RAW compression: It will be very difficult to see artifacts caused by it. However, in extreme lighting conditions, base ISO and after heavy post-processing, issues can be seen and I think are caused by the compression. I'm not 100% sure but I never saw such artifacts with Nikon D800 NEF files. For example, when shooting in high contrast lighting subjects and recovering shadow detail. I have seen horrendous clipping in the shadows transitions. The post-processing does not cause the issue...it just exposes what was hidden in the very blacks.

Fred



Jan 03, 2014 at 11:48 AM
snapsy
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p.99 #7 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


scott f wrote:
Barring a shutter redesign I think a firmware fix should work. Can they not create a custom function so that instead of closing the shutter and opening immediately for the exposure, it closes, a delay occurs , then opens? As I understand it now , you are viewing your image on the evf/lcd, press the shutter , it closes and immediately opens to take the image? That initial slam close plus opens is likely where the vibration comes from?


An "anti-shock" delay implemented in firmware would work but only if the hardware provided a way for firmware to independently control the shutter curtains - many times the curtain cocking mechanism is automated in hardware to meet the critical timing the curtains require. Another way would be if hardware has a configurable delay between the two curtains which firmware could control.



Jan 03, 2014 at 12:06 PM
KiboOst
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p.99 #8 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


actually at least three functions exist :
closeShutter (power off)
openShutter (power on, and after a shot)
fastCloseopen (when firing shutter)

so it would be possible to replace fastCloseopen by closeShutter / openShutter. Very easy in developement (basically, if menuoption(mlu)==1 connect firing to closeShutter, else connect to fastCloseopen). Now, will Sony want to ....



Jan 03, 2014 at 03:48 PM
snapsy
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p.99 #9 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


KiboOst wrote:
actually at least three functions exist :
closeShutter (power off)
openShutter (power on, and after a shot)
fastCloseopen (when firing shutter)

so it would be possible to replace fastCloseopen by closeShutter / openShutter. Very easy in developement (basically, if menuoption(mlu)==1 connect firing to closeShutter, else connect to fastCloseopen). Now, will Sony want to ....


That functionality exists in the camera but it might not be in a form that is divisible from firmware.



Jan 03, 2014 at 04:18 PM
StillFingerz
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p.99 #10 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Your wisdom please

Have any of you FMers used the A7...I know it's early, the new A7s just released...but I'm thinking that either might be an alternative FF body for use with FD glass? Canon fanboi...yep...but

I've been pondering an EOS-M or NEX-5N mated with an adapter so I can use my old FD glass; FD and nFD mount, I've Olympus glass as well. The NEX-5N with the Metabones speedbooster seems quite interesting. Both of these options are a ton less expensive, I'm just looking to experiment a bit more, having gone the FD-EF adapter route in a few forms. At $200 per lens conversion, with 15 plus lenses, a body with adapter seems the better route...

Late last night while reviewing the A7 images thread; light-bulb moment, even tho much more expensive than the M/N5 options, maybe the new Sony's might just kick arse. Not having gone FF yet, the A7 looks like a nice starting place. I'm not ready computing power wise for 36mp; only have a 6yr old Win7 dual core laptop; 4G...but 24 could be managed.

I'll be researching this option more extensively, but if you folks might advise, recommend any options, chime in with your thoughts/experience, I'd greatly appreciate it. I'll keep my eyes on this and the images thread in the ALT forum

The bulk of my images are of nature; flowers and their parts, city/landscapes and their bit, pieces and parts. A 7D and 1DMk2N are my sports bodies so an A7 purchase would be dedicated to non-action shooting, perhaps some portrait work...My only old 'L' lens is an 85, but it's all good in pristine shape. I've kept the manual glass because I really like their IQ and colors.

Just me thinking out loud, a 6D or 5D3 are in my sights, perhaps the A7 is an option tho
Besides my old FD macro setup; 50/100/200, ring-lite and bellows, I be using the EF 100L as well...

Why the sudden interest, these new Sony bodies can be used with a wired remote, the M and N5 have touch screen access; shutter button firing, but with a wired remote I'm a lot more free to hand hold, a huge plus

Cheers,
Jerry



Jan 03, 2014 at 06:34 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.99 #11 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


A new adapter for the brave souls:
http://www.mxcamera.com/DEO/product_info.php?products_id=53



Jan 03, 2014 at 09:33 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.99 #12 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


StillFingerz wrote:
Your wisdom please

Have any of you FMers used the A7...I know it's early, the new A7s just released...but I'm thinking that either might be an alternative FF body for use with FD glass? Canon fanboi...yep...but

I've been pondering an EOS-M or NEX-5N mated with an adapter so I can use my old FD glass; FD and nFD mount, I've Olympus glass as well. The NEX-5N with the Metabones speedbooster seems quite interesting. Both of these options are a ton less expensive, I'm just looking to experiment a bit more, having gone the FD-EF adapter route in a few forms.
...Show more

Jerry,
If you have 15 plus FD lenses, the A7 could be a great camera for you. I have seen great images from this combo.
Check out this thread:
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1253143

Sony's EVF is a marvel. It's so easy to nail focus using the 14.4x magnification. It's quick and precise to get tack sharp images.
I myself have the following Canon FD lenses: 20 f/2.8, 24 f/2.8, 28 f/2, 35 f/2.8 TS, 85 f/1.2L and 300 f/4L. I'm waiting for an adapter to try them out.
Fred



Jan 03, 2014 at 09:43 PM
snapsy
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p.99 #13 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


StillFingerz wrote:
Your wisdom please

Have any of you FMers used the A7...I know it's early, the new A7s just released...but I'm thinking that either might be an alternative FF body for use with FD glass? Canon fanboi...yep...but

I've been pondering an EOS-M or NEX-5N mated with an adapter so I can use my old FD glass; FD and nFD mount, I've Olympus glass as well. The NEX-5N with the Metabones speedbooster seems quite interesting. Both of these options are a ton less expensive, I'm just looking to experiment a bit more, having gone the FD-EF adapter route in a few forms.
...Show more

I would suggest the NEX-5N first, plus perhaps the EVF if you prefer one (I do). That will introduce you to the system for very little cost as the bodies are going for next to nothing here on B+S. If you find you really like using your adapted lens on the 5N and want an extra stop of ISO performance, native (non-cropped) focal lengths, and the extra resolving ability of a larger sensor for old glass then the A7 would be a great next step, and you should be able to resell the 5N for very little loss.



Jan 03, 2014 at 10:19 PM
StillFingerz
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p.99 #14 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


snapsy wrote:
I would suggest the NEX-5N first, plus perhaps the EVF if you prefer one (I do). That will introduce you to the system for very little cost as the bodies are going for next to nothing here on B+S. If you find you really like using your adapted lens on the 5N and want an extra stop of ISO performance, native (non-cropped) focal lengths, and the extra resolving ability of a larger sensor for old glass then the A7 would be a great next step, and you should be able to resell the 5N for very little loss.


Thanks Snapsy,

That's another vote for the N5; three and counting. I hadn't thought about exploring a Sony system; menus, etc, with an inexpensive model, that does bode well for the budget and gets me some experience with EXMOR before jumping in with both feet; so to speak Is there a particular EVF I should look at/for and what about flash?

I'll be attempting/doing a good bit of close-up/macro shooting, guess it's time for more research...

Cheers,
Jerry




Jan 04, 2014 at 12:53 AM
Achim Sieger
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p.99 #15 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Fred Miranda wrote:
Achim,
If it peels off, do not use it. It will end up on your sensor. Not a huge deal though, you just have to clean it.
That is why I recommend back flock paper. The fibers are very small and will not come off. It's the same paper Canon use on their TS-E lenses.
Fred


Fully agree with you, Fred,

was difficult to find an appropriate material in Germany.
After some research i found this here: http://www.edmundoptics.co.uk/lab-production/general-tools/light-absorbing-black-out-material/1502?#products

Will give it a try..

Best regards
Achim



Jan 04, 2014 at 05:41 AM
StillFingerz
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p.99 #16 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


Fred Miranda wrote:
Jerry,
If you have 15 plus FD lenses, the A7 could be a great camera for you. I have seen great images from this combo.
Check out this thread:
https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1253143

Sony's EVF is a marvel. It's so easy to nail focus using the 14.4x magnification. It's quick and precise to get tack sharp images.
I myself have the following Canon FD lenses: 20 f/2.8, 24 f/2.8, 28 f/2, 35 f/2.8 TS, 85 f/1.2L and 300 f/4L. I'm waiting for an adapter to try them out.
Fred


Fred, thank you, I greatly appreciate your reply, my FD primes range from 17 thru 300, zooms are 35-200...I sold the 400 long ago along with my only L, the 85 f1.2; kicks self kinda, they helped fund the digital side of this hobby/habit There are Sigma and Tamron; the 90 mac, 500 mirror, and as mentioned it's my FD macro gear that is the main focus. I've a 200 f4 macro that is still pristine, had used it on my 40D with EdMika's .5mm brass adapter, no infinity focus but for macro it works.

Thanks for the link, I'm looking through the Sony A7 threads, now the FD images as well. I'll be waiting for your review/results with the FD adapters The EVF sounds yummy, could help greatly for close-up and macro imaging, I'll do my research

Now to decide, go inexpensive or save and jump in with both feet and just get an A7...time will tell, I'll let you brave early adopters/warriors experiment and work the bugs out...the images so far are stunning!

Cheers,
Jerry



Jan 04, 2014 at 10:10 AM
15Bit
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p.99 #17 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


I was having a play with the A7 in the airport yesterday (just wasting some time) and i have to say i was impressed with it, especially the EVF and focus peeking. Handling was good too - i just picked it up and it seemed very intuitive to use. I suspect i will look very carefully at one as my next camera. If i were more wedded to alt glass it would be almost a certainty...


Jan 04, 2014 at 10:30 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.99 #18 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


StillFingerz wrote:
Fred, thank you, I greatly appreciate your reply, my FD primes range from 17 thru 300, zooms are 35-200...I sold the 400 long ago along with my only L, the 85 f1.2; kicks self kinda, they helped fund the digital side of this hobby/habit There are Sigma and Tamron; the 90 mac, 500 mirror, and as mentioned it's my FD macro gear that is the main focus. I've a 200 f4 macro that is still pristine, had used it on my 40D with EdMika's .5mm brass adapter, no infinity focus but for macro it works.

Thanks for the link, I'm
...Show more

Here are some reviews for Canon FD lenses you may already have. (Tested on the Sony A7)
  1. Canon FDn 20mm f/2.8

  2. Canon FDn 24mm f/2.8

  3. Canon FDn 28mm f/2.8

  4. Canon FDn 35mm f/2.8



Jan 04, 2014 at 06:35 PM
thw2
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p.99 #19 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


I played with the A7 couple of days ago. Handling was very very bad IMO. The buttons were way too small and packed too closely. Consequently, I had a hard time changing settings when I viewed through the EVF. It was alright when I composed with the LCD. This is most certainly not a camera I will turn to when I need to capture precious moments of active little kids. These cameras are good for static scenes like landscapes, but that's about it. What a pity.


Jan 04, 2014 at 07:03 PM
dehowie
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p.99 #20 · Sony A7 and A7r Full Frame with Canon Lenses


So in summary if Canon where to release a manual focus DSLR that was 38MP, needs a special lens mount of which so work some do not, that has huge flare problems, lens alignment issues,no AF but offered 2 stops extra DR, plus huge RAW compression which would create artifacts exactly in the mode you bought it to use it. For pushing shadows greatly etc you would rush out and buy one??
Given the reception the 5DMk3 got maybe the words marketing ploy, ripoff come to mind that Sony should be being showered with as opposed to anything near a compliment.
2 steps of DR and a few extra MP aint worth sacrificing everything else for..a system is more than just a sensor the Sony A-7 is the proof of that..



Jan 04, 2014 at 08:31 PM
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