p.47 #1 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
Jeff Kott wrote:
This goes to confirm the point that you've made several times about not relying on focus peaking and only using magnified view.
My own experience with the Nex 7 is that with lots of practice I can toggle back and forth between focus peaking and magnified view. I've still had good results with peaking set to low and getting a glimmer around the pupil for shooting faces with the eye in focus. Not sure why this would be different with FF.
with my nex-7 + 58/1.2, 55/1.2, 42/1.2, 35/1.4, etc as well as with my rx1 i find that turning peaking off and looking for moire shimmer without magnification is the most accurate (non magnified method) and fastest way to focus. peaking is good for video and longer telephoto work, i like it for birding.
p.47 #2 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
Reading that Phoglographer, I'm not sure if he's well familiar with the system. Stopping down with peaking would not help to achieve the exact focus point; it would create a thicker ambiguous plane of focus. I would not rely on peaking when shooting at f/8. I think he set the sensitivity too high.
Next to the auto-focus, this made me laugh: "Sony’s NEX camera system has always been able to boast blazing fast autofocusing speeds." It's anything but blazing fast. I remember my NEX-7 gave me the "peep" sound with the ZA 24 when the entire picture was out of focus. But I learned to shoot with it.
Then metering, I don't know if it happened while he shot with Otus or not. But my A99 and NEX-7 constantly under-exposed by 0.7 to 1EV on chipped non-native lenses. They under-exposed a bit with native lenses with high DR scene.
Finally, he complained about motion blur on the 7R. Very similar to the D800 problem, bad technique would not work on such hi-res camera.
p.47 #3 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
'However, the cameras that we’ve been dealing with for a while have had APS-C and Micro Four Thirds sensors. Because the A7 and A7r are full frame sensor cams, nailing focusing is even more essential.'
Sony have had peaking/mag on FF cameras for well over a year, Mr Pho-whatever with the nailing problems. Expect more mirth from 'new to Sony' types.
Peaking needs a 'sensitivity to DoF' control. Peaking is OK for quick checks with longer lenses but focus mag is the business. Sony could include a one press custom option with a variable magnification ratio for faster operation.
The Huffster is more the romantic type of shooter, fine with me, he is another data point in the distribution. Much better than the guy saying 'not for me' due to the high ISO not being good enough, not as good as Fuji. Eek.
p.47 #4 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
hiepphotog wrote:
Reading that Phoglographer, I'm not sure if he's well familiar with the system. Stopping down with peaking would not help to achieve the exact focus point; it would create a thicker ambiguous plane of focus. I would not rely on peaking when shooting at f/8. I think he set the sensitivity too high.
Next to the auto-focus, this made me laugh: "Sony’s NEX camera system has always been able to boast blazing fast autofocusing speeds." It's anything but blazing fast. I remember my NEX-7 gave me the "peep" sound with the ZA 24 when the entire picture was out of focus. But I learned to shoot with it.
Then metering, I don't know if it happened while he shot with Otus or not. But my A99 and NEX-7 constantly under-exposed by 0.7 to 1EV on chipped non-native lenses. They under-exposed a bit with native lenses with high DR scene.
Finally, he complained about motion blur on the 7R. Very similar to the D800 problem, bad technique would not work on such hi-res camera....Show more →
honestly, with regard to usability i suspect huff will be more useful to me. he already knows how sony's work, how to shoot with an evf, and unlike most internet reviewers seems to be able to take an in focus shot if you just hand him a new camera. just have to depend on him not being so excited he forgets to mention ergonomic quirks.
the exposure thing seems to be a common thing on modern evf sony's, they have so much shadow recovery capability somebody working for them decided to set exposure ultra safe with regard to highlights. if you don't like it this camera has an exposure compensation dial that you can leave at +1 or whatever.
p.47 #5 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
hiepphotog wrote:
Reading that Phoglographer, I'm not sure if he's well familiar with the system. Stopping down with peaking would not help to achieve the exact focus point; it would create a thicker ambiguous plane of focus. I would not rely on peaking when shooting at f/8. I think he set the sensitivity too high.
Next to the auto-focus, this made me laugh: "Sony’s NEX camera system has always been able to boast blazing fast autofocusing speeds." It's anything but blazing fast. I remember my NEX-7 gave me the "peep" sound with the ZA 24 when the entire picture was out of focus. But I learned to shoot with it.
Then metering, I don't know if it happened while he shot with Otus or not. But my A99 and NEX-7 constantly under-exposed by 0.7 to 1EV on chipped non-native lenses. They under-exposed a bit with native lenses with high DR scene.
Finally, he complained about motion blur on the 7R. Very similar to the D800 problem, bad technique would not work on such hi-res camera....Show more →
I'm also surprised about focus peaking and AF speed comments. When I got my first NEX camera, I was so annoyed with AF that I did not bother to try using AF with it again (not that I had any AF lens other than the kit lens)
Motion blur was the very first thing expected people to complain about A7r based on D800 comments in the past But EVF placement and shutter sound got the priority until now...
p.47 #6 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
BA-photos wrote:
Motion blur was the very first thing expected people to complain about A7r based on D800 comments in the past But EVF placement and shutter sound got the priority until now...
I don't understand why people aren't complaining about this with their NEXs, since the pixel density of the 16 and 24 MP APS-C sensors is the same or significantly higher than the A7/A7r.
p.47 #7 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
I am fairly certain that all the complaints we have about early "official" reviewers of these new cameras, are exactly the same criticisms we had with the NEX 7, the rx1...
I just take a deep breath and take the good with the bad, or the bad with the good.
p.47 #8 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
Jeff Kott wrote:
I don't understand why people aren't complaining about this with their NEXs, since the pixel density of the 16 and 24 MP APS-C sensors is the same or significantly higher than the A7/A7r.
Even though the pixel density of a 16MP APS-C is the same as a 36MP FF, there are more pixels per degree of view for equivalent FOVs, meaning the FF sensor is more sensitive to motion blur than the equivalent density APS-C. Here's how Thom Hogan has described it in the past: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/40651458
I'm not sure but I think this extra sensitivity to movement is offset by the lower magnification needed to produce equivalent size prints for FF vs APS-C (ie, the difference is only noticeable at 100% magnification).
p.47 #9 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
Jeff Kott wrote:
I don't understand why people aren't complaining about this with their NEXs, since the pixel density of the 16 and 24 MP APS-C sensors is the same or significantly higher than the A7/A7r.
i remember a lot of complaints about this with the NEX-7, and still hear them from time to time.
p.47 #10 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
The Photog's take, is interesting as I have been noticing on the sample shots there is considerable CA with the 50/1.8 on a number of images. I was not expecting this being a f/1.8 and one of initial flagship lenses.
I was not expecting AF to be great for fine work, where you have to nail the focus, but I am surprised by the focus peaking. As Douglas suggested the shimmer maybe the best method for now.
Also, I am somewhat more cautious of the next level of technical expertise that will be needed to maintain sharp shots with the 36MP. I noticed initially with the RX1, that FF 24MP, required a lot different technique in making sure there was no motion blur. This is coming from a 18MP M9, where it is quite common to use 1/2 of the focal length in shutter speed when pushed.
p.47 #11 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
1/250 sec should be adequate for most when shooting 50mm or lower (until you get to something really wide) hand held with FF 36MP if the D800E can be used as a proxy. The only thing that might alter that with the A7r is it's light weight. Here, the battery grip might help to stabilize the camera. Sort of ironic that this camera may turn out being too light for it's own good.
p.47 #15 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
snapsy wrote:
Even though the pixel density of a 16MP APS-C is the same as a 36MP FF, there are more pixels per degree of view for equivalent FOVs, meaning the FF sensor is more sensitive to motion blur than the equivalent density APS-C. Here's how Thom Hogan has described it in the past: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/40651458
I'm not sure but I think this extra sensitivity to movement is offset by the lower magnification needed to produce equivalent size prints for FF vs APS-C (ie, the difference is only noticeable at 100% magnification).
Most certainly correct in that if you look at the 36 mp image and 16 mp image at 100%, you need better shot discipline with the 36 mp image, but when you down sample the 36 mp image to 16 mp the difference goes away. So back to my original point, the A7r will be no more demanding of shooting technique than a 15 mp APS-C sensor provided that you look at the images sized the same.
p.47 #16 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
sebboh wrote:
i remember a lot of complaints about this with the NEX-7, and still hear them from time to time.
Yep, and we'll get those same complaints if people are comparing the 24 or 36 mp FF sensors to the 16 mp sensors both at 100% or assuming people are comparing apples to apples on an image size basis when we get our 54 mp FF sensor.
p.47 #17 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
charles.K wrote:
Also, I am somewhat more cautious of the next level of technical expertise that will be needed to maintain sharp shots with the 36MP. I noticed initially with the RX1, that FF 24MP, required a lot different technique in making sure there was no motion blur. This is coming from a 18MP M9, where it is quite common to use 1/2 of the focal length in shutter speed when pushed.
Are you viewing both the 24 mp image and the 18 mp image at 100% or are you down sampling the 24 mp image to 18 mp?
p.47 #18 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
Jeff Kott wrote:
Most certainly correct in that if you look at the 36 mp image and 16 mp image at 100%, you need better shot discipline with the 36 mp image, but when you down sample the 36 mp image to 16 mp the difference goes away. So back to my original point, the A7r will be no more demanding of shooting technique than a 15 mp APS-C sensor provided that you look at the images sized the same.
I suppose that depends on what one considers an acceptable outcome. The benefit of using a 36MP FF sensor over a 16MP APS-C sensor is that the 36MP FF image will resolve more detail for non-diffraction limited lenses/apertures since the FF image will require less magnification for an equal size print. That benefit however is nullified if the 36MP FF image has motion blur at 100% magnification due to the aforementioned extra sensitivity to camera shake. So if the desired outcome is only to match the resolving ability of the equivalent APS-C setup then I agree, 36MP FF it's no more demanding. But if the desired outcome is to achieve the maximum resolving ability that the FF camera+lens can provide then it is fair to say that the A7r (or D800) is more demanding of shooting technique.
p.47 #19 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
snapsy wrote:
I suppose that depends on what one considers an acceptable outcome. The benefit of using a 36MP FF sensor over a 16MP APS-C sensor is that the 36MP FF image will resolve more detail for non-diffraction limited lenses/apertures since the FF image will require less magnification for an equal size print. That benefit however is nullified if the 36MP FF image has motion blur at 100% magnification due to the aforementioned extra sensitivity to camera shake. So if the desired outcome is only to match the resolving ability of the equivalent APS-C setup then I agree, 36MP FF it's no more demanding. But if the desired outcome is to achieve the maximum resolving ability that the FF camera+lens can provide then it is fair to say that the A7r (or D800) is more demanding of shooting technique. ...Show more →
If resolution is your only criteria, then you're correct. But there are other quantifiable reasons for FF (i.e., depth of field advantages, more dynamic range, better performance at higher ISO's). There are also advantages that are more difficult to quantify, such as the "full frame look," and the big one for me that I don't have enough of a scientific background to explain. That is that when I look at two photos printed at the same size and one is taken with a larger format sensor, that one tends to look "better" to me.
p.47 #20 · Official: Sony A7 and A7R Fullframe Mirrorless
Agree with you, Jeff. Looking at the better jpegs (many are shot in hideous light and obviously were rushed, no recipe for a good and revealing image) it's also a visceral response - they simply look great and very natural - that is what the bigger format provides, less of a digital look. I don't think you can nullify it with a smaller format, just as you can't make FF look like medium format. You cannot add what was not there.
I see it on the faces of the people inspecting the image they just shot - amazed at the fabulous detail everywhere and great clarity. It is best for users to just put on their favourite lens and see what comes out.
But EVF placement and shutter sound got the priority until now...
