This topic is in the 2013 archive. You can read it and like its posts here. It is read only.
Archive 2013Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
p.4 #1Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
carstenw wrote:
I will especially not buy any NEX if they don't fix that damn menu system with its stupid icons and horrible organisation, or if they insist on making the camera so tiny and scrawny without a substantial feel to it. The larger lenses would make another tiny camera a cruel joke, ergonomically.
i believe i read that they got rid of that menu system for a more alpha like one in the newest NEX-5 iteration. is it the 5S? who can keep track? why did they go from N to R, what happened to O, P, and Q?
SAR is claiming it will be 20% larger than the NEX-7, but which larger lenses are you talking about? it appears that the FF lenses will be smaller than their previous aps-c equivalents.
I will especially not buy any NEX if they don't fix that damn menu system with its stupid icons and horrible organisation, or if they insist on making the camera so tiny and scrawny without a substantial feel to it. The larger lenses would make another tiny camera a cruel joke, ergonomically.
i believe i read that they got rid of that menu system for a more alpha like one in the newest NEX-5 iteration. is it the 5S? who can keep track? why did they go from N to R, what happened to O, P, and Q?
SAR is claiming it will be 20% larger than the NEX-7, but which larger lenses are you talking about? it appears that the FF lenses will be smaller than their previous aps-c equivalents.
Sep 16, 2013 at 05:12 PM
p.4 #2Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
carstenw wrote:
Judging by history, you are probably right. I still think that a reflex camera should be more expensive to build than an EVF (or none) camera. My feeling is that this is just Sony trying to get out of financial trouble by pricing things highly, but I could be wrong.
Let us wait and see the features and the cost of the 2 soon to be released FF NEX/E-mount cameras. Rumor has been one will cost around $2800 and the other closer to $1600 or $2000.
Rich
h00ligan wrote
I dont' see you getting a compact full frame MILC for less than a d800- MAYBE the same price.Let us wait and see the features and the cost of the 2 soon to be released FF NEX/E-mount cameras. Rumor has been one will cost around $2800 and the other closer to $1600 or $2000.
Rich
Sep 16, 2013 at 05:16 PM
p.4 #3Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
Except he miniturization process argument I'd agree on whole. It hink their r/d costs are high but they have mitigated it well in stages.
Frame - Nex, rx1
Ancillary technology - Nex 6,7,rx1
Sensor - rx1 etc
The question for me is about lenses. I think most agree existing emount lenses are unlikely to work wih a new full frame system.
So so they pay Zeiss to design and certify lenses or does Zeiss do so for profit sharing or ? I doubt the non Zeiss lenses have half as much r/d - not that hey are bad. I actually like the fifty. But for a fifty it's overpriced IMO.
So those rd costs are probably being spread widely across the markets, but I still bet they are quite high.
They also have to contend wih loss leading on the ps4 and will probably use more successful markets to do so.
What I don't understand is - who're the people buying alpha aspc cameras? Not pros due to limitation. Not consumers who know canikon better and who take more to the opposition tv ads?
I'd really love to see market penetration. Just because they can spend 15% more to chuck guts into a dslr...maybe that 15% is better spent elsewhere?
It should be vey interesting. Has anyone released a cost to build analysis on the rx1? That may offer insight. But seeing difference in just sensors. Wow.
Overall my guess is they have been working on these in tandem since Nex and released the Nex in stages wih new tech to fund the continued efforts into a pro market. I think if anything they may be thinking sell boutique cameras to offset costs of dslrs.
It's all guesses! If they are trying to redefine a genre I'm all for it.
Excuse the itypos
Edited on Sep 16, 2013 at 05:20 PM · View previous versions
Frame - Nex, rx1
Ancillary technology - Nex 6,7,rx1
Sensor - rx1 etc
The question for me is about lenses. I think most agree existing emount lenses are unlikely to work wih a new full frame system.
So so they pay Zeiss to design and certify lenses or does Zeiss do so for profit sharing or ? I doubt the non Zeiss lenses have half as much r/d - not that hey are bad. I actually like the fifty. But for a fifty it's overpriced IMO.
So those rd costs are probably being spread widely across the markets, but I still bet they are quite high.
They also have to contend wih loss leading on the ps4 and will probably use more successful markets to do so.
What I don't understand is - who're the people buying alpha aspc cameras? Not pros due to limitation. Not consumers who know canikon better and who take more to the opposition tv ads?
I'd really love to see market penetration. Just because they can spend 15% more to chuck guts into a dslr...maybe that 15% is better spent elsewhere?
It should be vey interesting. Has anyone released a cost to build analysis on the rx1? That may offer insight. But seeing difference in just sensors. Wow.
Overall my guess is they have been working on these in tandem since Nex and released the Nex in stages wih new tech to fund the continued efforts into a pro market. I think if anything they may be thinking sell boutique cameras to offset costs of dslrs.
It's all guesses! If they are trying to redefine a genre I'm all for it.
Excuse the itypos
Edited on Sep 16, 2013 at 05:20 PM · View previous versions
Sep 16, 2013 at 05:18 PM
p.4 #4Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
carstenw wrote:
Judging by history, you are probably right. I still think that a reflex camera should be more expensive to build than an EVF (or none) camera. My feeling is that this is just Sony trying to get out of financial trouble by pricing things highly, but I could be wrong.
It's probably a combination of the lower numbers that a FF NEX will be bought (if the FF DSLR and FF mirrorless were sold/ made in the same numbers, the DSLR would obviously cost more to make) AND Sony trying to milk as much $$ out of the only (aside from Leica) FF mirrorless available. The rumor I saw though is that a cheaper FF NEX version using the same sensor will be available later. If Sony is not able to offer at least one FF NEX for under 2K, it will fail imo.
h00ligan wrote
I dont' see you getting a compact full frame MILC for less than a d800- MAYBE the same price.It's probably a combination of the lower numbers that a FF NEX will be bought (if the FF DSLR and FF mirrorless were sold/ made in the same numbers, the DSLR would obviously cost more to make) AND Sony trying to milk as much $$ out of the only (aside from Leica) FF mirrorless available. The rumor I saw though is that a cheaper FF NEX version using the same sensor will be available later. If Sony is not able to offer at least one FF NEX for under 2K, it will fail imo.
Sep 16, 2013 at 05:19 PM
p.4 #5Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
Re the often overstated needs of everyman using giant f2.8 pro zooms, it isn't so. For starters how many lower end or even AA users are going to shell out for such a device at a price higher than their body cost? They may aspire in that direction however, yet 20% of the DSLR market evaporated into mirrorless.
Sony are playing a different game, playing to their strengths - small cameras with high end FF sensors and cutting edge technology. They will return to the DSLR pro area at the time of their choosing it now seems apparent. First we take Manhattan...
It would be a delicious irony if they offer far better IQ from this small camera program than is available for DSLR - and this seems as if it may be quite likely with Zeiss firmly onboard and at least some degree of legacy lens support.
Sony are playing a different game, playing to their strengths - small cameras with high end FF sensors and cutting edge technology. They will return to the DSLR pro area at the time of their choosing it now seems apparent. First we take Manhattan...
It would be a delicious irony if they offer far better IQ from this small camera program than is available for DSLR - and this seems as if it may be quite likely with Zeiss firmly onboard and at least some degree of legacy lens support.
Sep 16, 2013 at 05:27 PM
p.4 #6Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Judging by history, you are probably right. I still think that a reflex camera should be more expensive to build than an EVF (or none) camera. My feeling is that this is just Sony trying to get out of financial trouble by pricing things highly, but I could be wrong.It's probably a combination of the lower numbers that a FF NEX will be bought (if the FF DSLR and FF mirrorless were sold/ made in the same numbers, the DSLR would obviously cost more to make) AND Sony trying to milk as much $$ out of the only (aside from Leica) FF mirrorless available. The rumor I saw though is that a cheaper FF NEX version using the same sensor will be available later. If Sony is not able to offer at least one FF NEX for under 2K, it will fail imo.
yeah, once you move above the $2k mark on cameras the cost/price correlation becomes weaker. there is less competition and you are in the flatter portion of the demand curve where consumers have less demand elasticity with price increases.
since this camera will be the first of it's kind it is almost guaranteed to have an early adopter tax levied. it would be extremely foolish of sony not to do so from an economic perspective (it's not like they have a lot of love to lose as a corportation). there is a small pent up demand from people like many of us that have been demanding a FF mirrorless for some time. it doesn't sound like there is going to be any competition immediately, so it makes sense to release a high end version first with high margins for the people that have been waiting desperately for such a camera and then to release a stripped down version ~6 months later at much lower margins to try and aggressively win people over.
carstenw wrote
h00ligan wrote
I dont' see you getting a compact full frame MILC for less than a d800- MAYBE the same price.yeah, once you move above the $2k mark on cameras the cost/price correlation becomes weaker. there is less competition and you are in the flatter portion of the demand curve where consumers have less demand elasticity with price increases.
since this camera will be the first of it's kind it is almost guaranteed to have an early adopter tax levied. it would be extremely foolish of sony not to do so from an economic perspective (it's not like they have a lot of love to lose as a corportation). there is a small pent up demand from people like many of us that have been demanding a FF mirrorless for some time. it doesn't sound like there is going to be any competition immediately, so it makes sense to release a high end version first with high margins for the people that have been waiting desperately for such a camera and then to release a stripped down version ~6 months later at much lower margins to try and aggressively win people over.
Sep 16, 2013 at 05:34 PM
p.4 #7Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
sebboh wrote:
yeah, once you move above the $2k mark on cameras the cost/price correlation becomes weaker. there is less competition and you are in the flatter portion of the demand curve where consumers have less demand elasticity with price increases.
since this camera will be the first of it's kind it is almost guaranteed to have an early adopter tax levied. it would be extremely foolish of sony not to do so from an economic perspective (it's not like they have a lot of love to lose as a corportation). there is a small pent up demand from people like many of...Show more →
Agreed plus there is NRE to recover.
yeah, once you move above the $2k mark on cameras the cost/price correlation becomes weaker. there is less competition and you are in the flatter portion of the demand curve where consumers have less demand elasticity with price increases.
since this camera will be the first of it's kind it is almost guaranteed to have an early adopter tax levied. it would be extremely foolish of sony not to do so from an economic perspective (it's not like they have a lot of love to lose as a corportation). there is a small pent up demand from people like many of...Show more →
Agreed plus there is NRE to recover.
Sep 16, 2013 at 05:43 PM
p.4 #8Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
I'll guess that it will be around the same price as the a99.
Sep 16, 2013 at 05:45 PM
p.4 #9Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
kewlcanon wrote:
.....
5) SR5: There will be (a minimum) of two primes lenses (Zeiss 35mm f/2.8 and Zeiss 55mm f/1.8) and two High Quality zooms along the first camera announcement
The 55 1.8 sounds great, but I'm underwhelmed by a 35 f/2.8 - for me the sweet spot for FF would be f/2 with a 35mm lens - that usually allows for a good balance of speed, subject isolation and size/weight of the lens - I'm really hoping that its f/2.
.....
5) SR5: There will be (a minimum) of two primes lenses (Zeiss 35mm f/2.8 and Zeiss 55mm f/1.8) and two High Quality zooms along the first camera announcement
The 55 1.8 sounds great, but I'm underwhelmed by a 35 f/2.8 - for me the sweet spot for FF would be f/2 with a 35mm lens - that usually allows for a good balance of speed, subject isolation and size/weight of the lens - I'm really hoping that its f/2.
Sep 16, 2013 at 06:16 PM
p.4 #10Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
ken.vs.ryu wrote:
I'll guess that it will be around the same price as the a99.
If it has the same size sensor, and the same number of pixels and processing power, then it seems it should cost more if you add the cost of miniturization.
A high performance, large sensor camera, with a lot of pixels and small dimensions seems like an expensive proposition. And, that's without taking high quality lenses into consideration.
It seems like something needs to give if their going to keep the price the same or lower than the a99?
I guess if you don't need a prism or mirror and a seperate PDAF sensor, you could get a slightly smaller camera at a similar price point. Then when you add a high quality EVF, the price goes up again.
It'll be interesting to see what they do.
I'll guess that it will be around the same price as the a99.
If it has the same size sensor, and the same number of pixels and processing power, then it seems it should cost more if you add the cost of miniturization.
A high performance, large sensor camera, with a lot of pixels and small dimensions seems like an expensive proposition. And, that's without taking high quality lenses into consideration.
It seems like something needs to give if their going to keep the price the same or lower than the a99?
I guess if you don't need a prism or mirror and a seperate PDAF sensor, you could get a slightly smaller camera at a similar price point. Then when you add a high quality EVF, the price goes up again.
It'll be interesting to see what they do.
Sep 16, 2013 at 08:57 PM
p.4 #11Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
Btw, to the above post...I specifically stated the 2.8 zooms were a need pro feature if I recall.
Most people don't need a flash on the rx1 ever, but if it has a hot shoe, why not make a transmitter that isn't huge? Everyman buy one, no. Minimal cost to satisfy semi pro and pro users....yes. Especially if it can be used on any new sony.
Most people don't need a flash on the rx1 ever, but if it has a hot shoe, why not make a transmitter that isn't huge? Everyman buy one, no. Minimal cost to satisfy semi pro and pro users....yes. Especially if it can be used on any new sony.
Sep 16, 2013 at 11:12 PM
p.4 #12Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
Arejukas wrote:
If it has the same size sensor, and the same number of pixels and processing power, then it seems it should cost more if you add the cost of miniturization.
A high performance, large sensor camera, with a lot of pixels and small dimensions seems like an expensive proposition. And, that's without taking high quality lenses into consideration.
It seems like something needs to give if their going to keep the price the same or lower than the a99?
I guess if you don't need a prism or mirror and a seperate PDAF sensor, you could get a slightly smaller camera at a...Show more →
I'm pretty sure the Nex-9 won't have all of the features of the A99. I'm hoping it's a little more pro-sumer than the Nex-7 is, but I don't expect it to have it all.
ken.vs.ryu wrote
I'll guess that it will be around the same price as the a99.A high performance, large sensor camera, with a lot of pixels and small dimensions seems like an expensive proposition. And, that's without taking high quality lenses into consideration.
It seems like something needs to give if their going to keep the price the same or lower than the a99?
I guess if you don't need a prism or mirror and a seperate PDAF sensor, you could get a slightly smaller camera at a...Show more →
I'm pretty sure the Nex-9 won't have all of the features of the A99. I'm hoping it's a little more pro-sumer than the Nex-7 is, but I don't expect it to have it all.
Sep 16, 2013 at 11:52 PM
p.4 #13Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
I expect high tech but lower feature set, i.e no flash and system extras, and the D800 cruelled asking more than $3000 from now on (apart from the L company).
Not if you are going the painful route of issuing a 120 gram slow 35mm lens, so a low weight of the body counts a lot. Means less bells and whistles IMO.
But the rumour site just now has it that another camera will be announced extra to what is expected...will it begin with RX and be in single digits? They are running out of 'special' cameras to announce, and that would be 'special', to me at least.
They snuck the RX1 onto an unsuspecting market last year this time...but I am falling prey to FLM's wish fulfilment syndrome I think.
Not if you are going the painful route of issuing a 120 gram slow 35mm lens, so a low weight of the body counts a lot. Means less bells and whistles IMO.
But the rumour site just now has it that another camera will be announced extra to what is expected...will it begin with RX and be in single digits? They are running out of 'special' cameras to announce, and that would be 'special', to me at least.
They snuck the RX1 onto an unsuspecting market last year this time...but I am falling prey to FLM's wish fulfilment syndrome I think.
Sep 17, 2013 at 12:37 AM
p.4 #14Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
Taylor Sherman wrote:
If it has the same size sensor, and the same number of pixels and processing power, then it seems it should cost more if you add the cost of miniturization.
A high performance, large sensor camera, with a lot of pixels and small dimensions seems like an expensive proposition. And, that's without taking high quality lenses into consideration.
It seems like something needs to give if their going to keep the price the same or lower than the a99?
I guess if you don't need a prism or mirror and a seperate PDAF sensor, you could get a slightly smaller camera at a similar price point. Then when you add a high quality EVF, the price goes up again.
It'll be interesting to see what they do.I'm pretty sure the Nex-9 won't have all of the features of the A99. I'm hoping it's a little more pro-sumer than the Nex-7 is, but I don't expect it to have it all.
This is what I'm afraid of. Sony put so many nice features in their SLT cameras, but they really skimp on the NEX. It's almost like we're getting cheated. If it's about cost, then raise the price. Just give us a FULL featured NEX with all the bells and whistles.
Arejukas wrote
ken.vs.ryu wrote
I'll guess that it will be around the same price as the a99.A high performance, large sensor camera, with a lot of pixels and small dimensions seems like an expensive proposition. And, that's without taking high quality lenses into consideration.
It seems like something needs to give if their going to keep the price the same or lower than the a99?
I guess if you don't need a prism or mirror and a seperate PDAF sensor, you could get a slightly smaller camera at a similar price point. Then when you add a high quality EVF, the price goes up again.
It'll be interesting to see what they do.
This is what I'm afraid of. Sony put so many nice features in their SLT cameras, but they really skimp on the NEX. It's almost like we're getting cheated. If it's about cost, then raise the price. Just give us a FULL featured NEX with all the bells and whistles.
Sep 17, 2013 at 01:27 AM
p.4 #15Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
h00ligan wrote:
Btw, to the above post...I specifically stated the 2.8 zooms were a need pro feature if I recall.
A Metabones adapter makes a Canon EOS zoom an E-mount zoom with full function.
Btw, to the above post...I specifically stated the 2.8 zooms were a need pro feature if I recall.
A Metabones adapter makes a Canon EOS zoom an E-mount zoom with full function.
Sep 17, 2013 at 01:58 AM
p.4 #16Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
He posted comparison shots...have a look. Aside from the visual differences, there are issues of af, etc...and it's expensive.
The guys who want 2.8 zooms also want good af with them.
The guys who want 2.8 zooms also want good af with them.
Sep 17, 2013 at 03:04 AM
p.4 #17Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
h00ligan wrote:
He posted comparison shots...have a look. Aside from the visual differences, there are issues of af, etc...and it's expensive.
The guys who want 2.8 zooms also want good af with them.
Who posted comparison shots of what? Link?
Rich
He posted comparison shots...have a look. Aside from the visual differences, there are issues of af, etc...and it's expensive.
The guys who want 2.8 zooms also want good af with them.
Who posted comparison shots of what? Link?
Rich
Sep 17, 2013 at 04:05 AM
p.4 #18Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
sebboh wrote:
i believe i read that they got rid of that menu system for a more alpha like one in the newest NEX-5 iteration. is it the 5S? who can keep track? why did they go from N to R, what happened to O, P, and Q?
SAR is claiming it will be 20% larger than the NEX-7, but which larger lenses are you talking about? it appears that the FF lenses will be smaller than their previous aps-c equivalents.
If they really fixed the menu system and made it more like Canon/Nikon, that would be awesome, and a big point towards desirability for me. I hated the operation of everything up to and including the NEX-6.
If the NEX-9 is 20% larger than the NEX-7, that is another big bonus. This might actually be a nice camera to hold then. The NEX-7 was almost nice, but the body was too thin and light, and the grip too square.
I am not talking about any specific lenses, but lenses covering FF will generally be larger than lenses covering APS-C, and the NEX lenses are already bulky, so if this continues to hold, that is a serious downside.
carstenw wrote
I will especially not buy any NEX if they don't fix that damn menu system with its stupid icons and horrible organisation, or if they insist on making the camera so tiny and scrawny without a substantial feel to it. The larger lenses would make another tiny camera a cruel joke, ergonomically.SAR is claiming it will be 20% larger than the NEX-7, but which larger lenses are you talking about? it appears that the FF lenses will be smaller than their previous aps-c equivalents.
If they really fixed the menu system and made it more like Canon/Nikon, that would be awesome, and a big point towards desirability for me. I hated the operation of everything up to and including the NEX-6.
If the NEX-9 is 20% larger than the NEX-7, that is another big bonus. This might actually be a nice camera to hold then. The NEX-7 was almost nice, but the body was too thin and light, and the grip too square.
I am not talking about any specific lenses, but lenses covering FF will generally be larger than lenses covering APS-C, and the NEX lenses are already bulky, so if this continues to hold, that is a serious downside.
Sep 17, 2013 at 04:06 AM
p.4 #19Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
When somebody argues, what's the point of getting a mirrorless over a DLSR ?. If you're gonna use big zooms and teles the size factor becomes irrelevant.
Well, I'd ask the reverse question : What is the point of getting a DSLR over a mirrorless if a reflex is more complex to build, prone to mechanical wear of moving parts, a tad heavier and more expensive as a whole ?.
The ultimate asset of mirrorless cameras over DSLRS won't be the size but the economy. That means that, all other factors being equal, they must be sold substantially cheaper than DSLRs in order to succeed and, eventually, relegate the old 'pentaprismed dinosaurs' to a niche market.
Fact is that, at present, all other factors aren't equal. Not yet. If the new FF-NEX models have worse AF than a D800 ( most probably) worse ergonomics with heavy lenses and they're also more expensive, then Nikon or Canon needn't to worry about their pro-market ( for the time being ).
Well, I'd ask the reverse question : What is the point of getting a DSLR over a mirrorless if a reflex is more complex to build, prone to mechanical wear of moving parts, a tad heavier and more expensive as a whole ?.
The ultimate asset of mirrorless cameras over DSLRS won't be the size but the economy. That means that, all other factors being equal, they must be sold substantially cheaper than DSLRs in order to succeed and, eventually, relegate the old 'pentaprismed dinosaurs' to a niche market.
Fact is that, at present, all other factors aren't equal. Not yet. If the new FF-NEX models have worse AF than a D800 ( most probably) worse ergonomics with heavy lenses and they're also more expensive, then Nikon or Canon needn't to worry about their pro-market ( for the time being ).
Sep 17, 2013 at 05:59 AM
p.4 #20Sony Full Frame attack: (SR5) Three E-mount FF to come within 5 months!
Taylor Sherman wrote:
If it has the same size sensor, and the same number of pixels and processing power, then it seems it should cost more if you add the cost of miniturization.
A high performance, large sensor camera, with a lot of pixels and small dimensions seems like an expensive proposition. And, that's without taking high quality lenses into consideration.
It seems like something needs to give if their going to keep the price the same or lower than the a99?
I guess if you don't need a prism or mirror and a seperate PDAF sensor, you could get a slightly smaller camera at a similar price point. Then when you add a high quality EVF, the price goes up again.
It'll be interesting to see what they do.I'm pretty sure the Nex-9 won't have all of the features of the A99. I'm hoping it's a little more pro-sumer than the Nex-7 is, but I don't expect it to have it all.
SAR has now suggested that the A99 may go out of production as of November 30.
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr3-a99-will-run-out-of-production-in-late-november/
Rich
Arejukas wrote
ken.vs.ryu wrote
I'll guess that it will be around the same price as the a99.A high performance, large sensor camera, with a lot of pixels and small dimensions seems like an expensive proposition. And, that's without taking high quality lenses into consideration.
It seems like something needs to give if their going to keep the price the same or lower than the a99?
I guess if you don't need a prism or mirror and a seperate PDAF sensor, you could get a slightly smaller camera at a similar price point. Then when you add a high quality EVF, the price goes up again.
It'll be interesting to see what they do.
SAR has now suggested that the A99 may go out of production as of November 30.
http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sr3-a99-will-run-out-of-production-in-late-november/
Rich
Sep 17, 2013 at 07:21 AM