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Archive 2013Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
p.32 #1Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
kezeka wrote:
I was under the impression that because the distance between the sensor and the lens is so small in the NEX series that the lenses wouldn't need nearly as much length and volume and therefore could approach leica m lux ASPH sizes. Hell, at this point the only reason I want a NEXFF is to be able to put a leica m 50/1.4 ASPH on it and go to town with a small package that pulls plenty of light in. I can manage manually focusing if that keeps the size down. The point is, leica can manufacture lenses that are...Show more →
It should be mentioned that the girth of Leica lenses is much smaller than most lenses, because there are no auto-aperture and/or auto focus motors to squeeze into the lenses.
Either way, Leica has to jump through some hoops to get their lenses to work ok with digital sensors, and they do so with special microlens and pixel designs, as well as software correction. It's possible Sony could jump through similar hoops, but I doubt it. As theSuede has mentioned several times, having a mount that is both relatively small AND so close to the sensor creates mechanical interference that will force wide-ish lenses faster than f2 to be pretty large. I'm guessing that's even why one of the rumored primes is a 55/1.8, rather than a 50/1.8.
I recently saw some tests of the 50/1.4 ASPH on the VG-900, and it was pretty good across the frame, although it did look like the m240 was a little better across the frame with that lens.
p.s. I've read in a few places that the m240 may not handle oblique light rays quite as well as the M9, in terms of across the frame sharpness. Offsetting microlenses for wide angles can begin to have a negative effect on teles, and, since the M240 is marketed as a Leica R solution, where lenses get longer, I wonder if Leica sacrificed some wide angle performance for better tele performance? Just a thought.
I was under the impression that because the distance between the sensor and the lens is so small in the NEX series that the lenses wouldn't need nearly as much length and volume and therefore could approach leica m lux ASPH sizes. Hell, at this point the only reason I want a NEXFF is to be able to put a leica m 50/1.4 ASPH on it and go to town with a small package that pulls plenty of light in. I can manage manually focusing if that keeps the size down. The point is, leica can manufacture lenses that are...Show more →
It should be mentioned that the girth of Leica lenses is much smaller than most lenses, because there are no auto-aperture and/or auto focus motors to squeeze into the lenses.
Either way, Leica has to jump through some hoops to get their lenses to work ok with digital sensors, and they do so with special microlens and pixel designs, as well as software correction. It's possible Sony could jump through similar hoops, but I doubt it. As theSuede has mentioned several times, having a mount that is both relatively small AND so close to the sensor creates mechanical interference that will force wide-ish lenses faster than f2 to be pretty large. I'm guessing that's even why one of the rumored primes is a 55/1.8, rather than a 50/1.8.
I recently saw some tests of the 50/1.4 ASPH on the VG-900, and it was pretty good across the frame, although it did look like the m240 was a little better across the frame with that lens.
p.s. I've read in a few places that the m240 may not handle oblique light rays quite as well as the M9, in terms of across the frame sharpness. Offsetting microlenses for wide angles can begin to have a negative effect on teles, and, since the M240 is marketed as a Leica R solution, where lenses get longer, I wonder if Leica sacrificed some wide angle performance for better tele performance? Just a thought.
Sep 13, 2013 at 11:57 AM
p.32 #2Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
kezeka wrote:
I was under the impression that because the distance between the sensor and the lens is so small in the NEX series that the lenses wouldn't need nearly as much length and volume and therefore could approach leica m lux ASPH sizes. Hell, at this point the only reason I want a NEXFF is to be able to put a leica m 50/1.4 ASPH on it and go to town with a small package that pulls plenty of light in. I can manage manually focusing if that keeps the size down. The point is, leica can manufacture lenses that are...Show more →
what do you consider small? you aren't going to see any well performing 35/1.4 or 50/1.4 lenses with AF that are as small as the m lux asph versions (not terribly small lenses themselves). those are $4-6k manual focus lenses that were designed with minimizing size as one of the more explicit design objectives. the zeiss lenses are aiming for the $2k and under price range and need to include AF, i really don't see any chance of them being able to design particularly compact f/1.4 or f/1.2 lenses with those parameters. a decent size estimate would be to look at the fuji lenses and multiply them by ~1.2 in every dimension.
I was under the impression that because the distance between the sensor and the lens is so small in the NEX series that the lenses wouldn't need nearly as much length and volume and therefore could approach leica m lux ASPH sizes. Hell, at this point the only reason I want a NEXFF is to be able to put a leica m 50/1.4 ASPH on it and go to town with a small package that pulls plenty of light in. I can manage manually focusing if that keeps the size down. The point is, leica can manufacture lenses that are...Show more →
what do you consider small? you aren't going to see any well performing 35/1.4 or 50/1.4 lenses with AF that are as small as the m lux asph versions (not terribly small lenses themselves). those are $4-6k manual focus lenses that were designed with minimizing size as one of the more explicit design objectives. the zeiss lenses are aiming for the $2k and under price range and need to include AF, i really don't see any chance of them being able to design particularly compact f/1.4 or f/1.2 lenses with those parameters. a decent size estimate would be to look at the fuji lenses and multiply them by ~1.2 in every dimension.
Sep 13, 2013 at 12:07 PM
p.32 #3Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
kezeka wrote:
I was under the impression that because the distance between the sensor and the lens is so small in the NEX series that the lenses wouldn't need nearly as much length and volume and therefore could approach leica m lux ASPH sizes. Hell, at this point the only reason I want a NEXFF is to be able to put a leica m 50/1.4 ASPH on it and go to town with a small package that pulls plenty of light in. I can manage manually focusing if that keeps the size down. The point is, leica can manufacture lenses that are...Show more →
Hopefully, you will be able to use a Leica 50/1.4 ASPH on the FF NEX, that's why people are excited about this camera. But keep in mind the 50 Lux ASPH is not exactly a small lens either. It's about the same length as a Canon EF-mount 50/1.4, and weighs twice as much (though it is narrower). So take that 50 Lux, and now squeeze an AF mechanism in there (you may be fine with MF, but it would be market suicide for Sony if their native NEX lenses didn't autofocus), and do it all for a third of the price of the Leica. That's essentially the design challenge you're giving Sony. So if they look at that challenge and decide the best compromise is to design a 50/1.8 instead of a 50/1.4, that seems quite reasonable to me.
I was under the impression that because the distance between the sensor and the lens is so small in the NEX series that the lenses wouldn't need nearly as much length and volume and therefore could approach leica m lux ASPH sizes. Hell, at this point the only reason I want a NEXFF is to be able to put a leica m 50/1.4 ASPH on it and go to town with a small package that pulls plenty of light in. I can manage manually focusing if that keeps the size down. The point is, leica can manufacture lenses that are...Show more →
Hopefully, you will be able to use a Leica 50/1.4 ASPH on the FF NEX, that's why people are excited about this camera. But keep in mind the 50 Lux ASPH is not exactly a small lens either. It's about the same length as a Canon EF-mount 50/1.4, and weighs twice as much (though it is narrower). So take that 50 Lux, and now squeeze an AF mechanism in there (you may be fine with MF, but it would be market suicide for Sony if their native NEX lenses didn't autofocus), and do it all for a third of the price of the Leica. That's essentially the design challenge you're giving Sony. So if they look at that challenge and decide the best compromise is to design a 50/1.8 instead of a 50/1.4, that seems quite reasonable to me.
Sep 13, 2013 at 12:17 PM
p.32 #4Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Those upcoming NEX FF models will have an unquestionable problem, or let's say constraint. As it has been said here many times the E-mount it's sort of O.K. but not the best option for a full frame system. A registry distance of 18mm. needs a wider throat to make easier the life of the optical engineers. I'm sure you'll agree that when Sony released the first NEX it was intended only for APS-C sensors and, as such, the E-mount seems an excellent choice.
Miracles are very rare in physics. Don't expect that Sony releases a FE 50/1.2 or a FE 24/2. ( but maybe Sigma will..
)
Miracles are very rare in physics. Don't expect that Sony releases a FE 50/1.2 or a FE 24/2. ( but maybe Sigma will..
)Sep 13, 2013 at 01:24 PM
p.32 #5Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Maybe if we're lucky, Sony has modified the E-Mount somehow on the FF NEX's with a wider throat but with some sort of mechanical adjustment possible to allow for the smaller APS E-mount lenses.
Sep 13, 2013 at 01:45 PM
p.32 #6Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Maybe if we're lucky, Sony has modified the E-Mount somehow on the FF NEX's with a wider throat but with some sort of mechanical adjustment possible to allow for the smaller APS E-mount lenses.
That's a cool idea, but that literature about the rumored 35/2.8 mentioned that the lens could be used on both FF and aps-c NEX, so I'm not so sure. The fact that they chose a 35/2.8 seems to indicate to me that Sony didn't change anything about the mount.
Maybe if we're lucky, Sony has modified the E-Mount somehow on the FF NEX's with a wider throat but with some sort of mechanical adjustment possible to allow for the smaller APS E-mount lenses.
That's a cool idea, but that literature about the rumored 35/2.8 mentioned that the lens could be used on both FF and aps-c NEX, so I'm not so sure. The fact that they chose a 35/2.8 seems to indicate to me that Sony didn't change anything about the mount.
Sep 13, 2013 at 01:50 PM
p.32 #8Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
SAR is reporting that the FF NEX camera will be displayed at Photoplus at the Javits Center in NYC October 24-26. Looks like I called that one right. 
I will try to bring several Leica R lenses and at least one Leica M mount lens with adapters to the show. Hopefully Sony will let me mount them on the camera. I will try to report back about feel and balance on the camera.
Rich
I will try to bring several Leica R lenses and at least one Leica M mount lens with adapters to the show. Hopefully Sony will let me mount them on the camera. I will try to report back about feel and balance on the camera.Rich
Sep 14, 2013 at 02:50 AM
p.32 #9Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Tariq, I think that your suggestion is not possible, Unless they used a removable adapter, the mechanical adjustment for mounting APS-C lenses would be constraining the light path in the same way than a regular NEX mount.
Sep 14, 2013 at 03:17 AM
p.32 #10Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Maybe if we're lucky, Sony has modified the E-Mount somehow on the FF NEX's with a wider throat but with some sort of mechanical adjustment possible to allow for the smaller APS E-mount lenses.
I don't understand why they would use the E-mount at all. It's designed for APS-C and no one is going to use APS-C lenses on a FF camera. So a new, larger mount would not be a problem, but rather solve all these mentioned problems.
Maybe if we're lucky, Sony has modified the E-Mount somehow on the FF NEX's with a wider throat but with some sort of mechanical adjustment possible to allow for the smaller APS E-mount lenses.
I don't understand why they would use the E-mount at all. It's designed for APS-C and no one is going to use APS-C lenses on a FF camera. So a new, larger mount would not be a problem, but rather solve all these mentioned problems.
Sep 14, 2013 at 05:18 AM
p.32 #11Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Makten wrote:
I don't understand why they would use the E-mount at all. It's designed for APS-C and no one is going to use APS-C lenses on a FF camera. So a new, larger mount would not be a problem, but rather solve all these mentioned
problems.
Consider how many lens mount systems that Sony would have to support if they came out with a new size mount. That would bring Sony to 3 mounts with the A, E, and then a third mount for the new FF cameras. I am not sure if even Sony would get sufficient sales to support 3 systems that way. At least for those already invested in the NEX system they can use some of their existing APS-C lenses on the FF cameras in this same frame size at least until Sony and Zeiss can release enough FF Nex/E mount lenses. It is going to take Sony and Zeiss many years to release sufficient numbers of E mount (or had they come out with a 3rd mount) lenses to make the system mature (look how long it has taken Sony and Zeiss to get the NEX system lens arsenal to the state that it is in). In the mean time there are tremendous number of legacy MF lenses that will fit the new FF NEX/E mount cameras.
I for one am and will be happy with a mirrorless camera that will provide me with most of my needs that will allow me to mount my Leica R and soon to be some Leica M mount lenses to the new FF camera with only lens adapters without the necessity of changing the lens mounts and this will also allow me to use these lenses at working aperture to focus and shoot.
Rich
Tariq Gibran wrote
Maybe if we're lucky, Sony has modified the E-Mount somehow on the FF NEX's with a wider throat but with some sort of mechanical adjustment possible to allow for the smaller APS E-mount lenses.problems.
Consider how many lens mount systems that Sony would have to support if they came out with a new size mount. That would bring Sony to 3 mounts with the A, E, and then a third mount for the new FF cameras. I am not sure if even Sony would get sufficient sales to support 3 systems that way. At least for those already invested in the NEX system they can use some of their existing APS-C lenses on the FF cameras in this same frame size at least until Sony and Zeiss can release enough FF Nex/E mount lenses. It is going to take Sony and Zeiss many years to release sufficient numbers of E mount (or had they come out with a 3rd mount) lenses to make the system mature (look how long it has taken Sony and Zeiss to get the NEX system lens arsenal to the state that it is in). In the mean time there are tremendous number of legacy MF lenses that will fit the new FF NEX/E mount cameras.
I for one am and will be happy with a mirrorless camera that will provide me with most of my needs that will allow me to mount my Leica R and soon to be some Leica M mount lenses to the new FF camera with only lens adapters without the necessity of changing the lens mounts and this will also allow me to use these lenses at working aperture to focus and shoot.
Rich
Sep 14, 2013 at 06:01 AM
p.32 #12Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Makten wrote:
I don't understand why they would use the E-mount at all. It's designed for APS-C and no one is going to use APS-C lenses on a FF camera. So a new, larger mount would not be a problem, but rather solve all these mentioned problems.
The only thing I can think of is that it's to allow all the current and future users of NEX APS systems to be able to use their existing APS lenses on the FF NEX, in crop mode of course. This makes the potential market of the FF NEX much bigger as it provides a path for all NEX users. Doing so also means the FF NEX is less likely to be a still-born system with a fairly limited number of FF lenses available. It does seem like we are in for a "compromised" FF system though unless Sony has done something special with the mount or sensor.
Tariq Gibran wrote
Maybe if we're lucky, Sony has modified the E-Mount somehow on the FF NEX's with a wider throat but with some sort of mechanical adjustment possible to allow for the smaller APS E-mount lenses.The only thing I can think of is that it's to allow all the current and future users of NEX APS systems to be able to use their existing APS lenses on the FF NEX, in crop mode of course. This makes the potential market of the FF NEX much bigger as it provides a path for all NEX users. Doing so also means the FF NEX is less likely to be a still-born system with a fairly limited number of FF lenses available. It does seem like we are in for a "compromised" FF system though unless Sony has done something special with the mount or sensor.
Sep 14, 2013 at 06:04 AM
p.32 #13Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I think the better reason is that in the future, the FF-E lenses can also be used on the APS-C NEXen.
Sep 14, 2013 at 09:05 AM
p.32 #14Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
carstenw wrote:
I think the better reason is that in the future, the FF-E lenses can also be used on the APS-C NEXen.
+1
i'm certainly happy they are doing it that way, but then i don't really care about native lenses. i don't want to get all new adapters for all my lenses and it guarantees the ability to mount m glass with a helicoid adapter.
I think the better reason is that in the future, the FF-E lenses can also be used on the APS-C NEXen.
+1
i'm certainly happy they are doing it that way, but then i don't really care about native lenses. i don't want to get all new adapters for all my lenses and it guarantees the ability to mount m glass with a helicoid adapter.
Sep 14, 2013 at 09:41 AM
p.32 #15Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
sebboh wrote:
+1
i'm certainly happy they are doing it that way, but then i don't really care about native lenses. i don't want to get all new adapters for all my lenses and it guarantees the ability to mount m glass with a helicoid adapter.
The big question is going to be is how well the wide angle Leica M lenses will play with the new FF NEX camera(s)/sensors..
Rich
carstenw wrote
I think the better reason is that in the future, the FF-E lenses can also be used on the APS-C NEXen.i'm certainly happy they are doing it that way, but then i don't really care about native lenses. i don't want to get all new adapters for all my lenses and it guarantees the ability to mount m glass with a helicoid adapter.
The big question is going to be is how well the wide angle Leica M lenses will play with the new FF NEX camera(s)/sensors..
Rich
Sep 14, 2013 at 09:49 AM
p.32 #16Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
naturephoto1 wrote:
+1
i'm certainly happy they are doing it that way, but then i don't really care about native lenses. i don't want to get all new adapters for all my lenses and it guarantees the ability to mount m glass with a helicoid adapter.The big question is going to be is how well the wide angle Leica M lenses will play with the new FF NEX camera(s)/sensors..
Rich
ya think
when will Leica get smart and offer us a minimalist RF-less m240?
sebboh wrote
carstenw wrote
I think the better reason is that in the future, the FF-E lenses can also be used on the APS-C NEXen.i'm certainly happy they are doing it that way, but then i don't really care about native lenses. i don't want to get all new adapters for all my lenses and it guarantees the ability to mount m glass with a helicoid adapter.
Rich
ya think
when will Leica get smart and offer us a minimalist RF-less m240?
Sep 14, 2013 at 10:25 AM
p.32 #17Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Tariq Gibran wrote:
I don't understand why they would use the E-mount at all. It's designed for APS-C and no one is going to use APS-C lenses on a FF camera. So a new, larger mount would not be a problem, but rather solve all these mentioned problems.The only thing I can think of is that it's to allow all the current and future users of NEX APS systems to be able to use their existing APS lenses on the FF NEX, in crop mode of course. This makes the potential market of the FF NEX much bigger as it provides a path for all NEX users. Doing so also means the FF NEX is less likely to be a still-born system with a fairly limited number of FF lenses available. It does seem like we are in for a "compromised" FF system though unless Sony...Show more →
Yes, I think it makes sense, providing of course that the size of the mount doesn't incur too many compromises.
The Touit 12/2.8 will still be a great lens to use on the FF nex, for instance. You'll have fewer pixels, but it's a great 18mm equivalent. It also doesn't have a rectangular cutout over the back element, so it projects a circle. . . there may be other crops (eg square) made available when you mount it on the FF.
Makten wrote
Tariq Gibran wrote
Maybe if we're lucky, Sony has modified the E-Mount somehow on the FF NEX's with a wider throat but with some sort of mechanical adjustment possible to allow for the smaller APS E-mount lenses.Yes, I think it makes sense, providing of course that the size of the mount doesn't incur too many compromises.
The Touit 12/2.8 will still be a great lens to use on the FF nex, for instance. You'll have fewer pixels, but it's a great 18mm equivalent. It also doesn't have a rectangular cutout over the back element, so it projects a circle. . . there may be other crops (eg square) made available when you mount it on the FF.
Sep 14, 2013 at 01:27 PM
p.32 #18Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
kezeka wrote:
I don't know what concerts you are covering that have that much light. It is rare that I see ISO3200 with even my f/1.4 primes at even 1/100. Much less my 70-200 2.8. Even at large music festivals like voodoo fest, jazz fest, and Austin city limits fest where the stages have relatively good lighting.
Austin does have some dark holes, as does Denver. But I'll take a little motion blur over going above 3200.
I don't know what concerts you are covering that have that much light. It is rare that I see ISO3200 with even my f/1.4 primes at even 1/100. Much less my 70-200 2.8. Even at large music festivals like voodoo fest, jazz fest, and Austin city limits fest where the stages have relatively good lighting.
Austin does have some dark holes, as does Denver. But I'll take a little motion blur over going above 3200.
Sep 14, 2013 at 02:20 PM
p.32 #19Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
uhoh7 wrote:
when will Leica get smart and offer us a minimalist RF-less m240?
They need more production capacity first. They would be have to be stupid to make a lower-spec and presumedly lower-profit model when their production lines are at full capacity with a higher-profit model. More production capacity is being built.
when will Leica get smart and offer us a minimalist RF-less m240?
They need more production capacity first. They would be have to be stupid to make a lower-spec and presumedly lower-profit model when their production lines are at full capacity with a higher-profit model. More production capacity is being built.
Sep 14, 2013 at 04:19 PM
p.32 #20Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
telyt wrote:
They need more production capacity first. They would be have to be stupid to make a lower-spec and presumedly lower-profit model when their production lines are at full capacity with a higher-profit model. More production capacity is being built.
Dr. Kaufmann in an interview a couple of weeks ago has insinuated that more new product lines will be introduced this year even in FF.
uhoh7 wrote
when will Leica get smart and offer us a minimalist RF-less m240?Dr. Kaufmann in an interview a couple of weeks ago has insinuated that more new product lines will be introduced this year even in FF.
Sep 14, 2013 at 09:47 PM