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Archive 2013Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
p.20 #1Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
alundeb wrote:
To the level of zero power as an OVF has, it is impossible.
The problems with EVF and power, is that the demands for quality like an OVF drives the power consumption up (refresh rate, brightness, size). All we can hope for, is that the technology will give a battery life that is sufficient, but it will never be even approximately as good.
In the case of the rumored FF NEX, If I have to carry two extra batteries for extended VF use with say a 70-300mm lens on a hike, it completely outweighs the weight advantage of a FF NEX +...Show more →
I have only the 1 battery for my Nex. I've never encountered drain that would require multiple batteries for something like a hike. We probably shoot differently though.
We should not underestimate technology. So much is invested to improve portable device battery life, there are bound to be advances.
The benefits of EVF will outweigh issues like power consumption.
SKumar25 wrote
Will it be impossible to solve battery life issues over time?The problems with EVF and power, is that the demands for quality like an OVF drives the power consumption up (refresh rate, brightness, size). All we can hope for, is that the technology will give a battery life that is sufficient, but it will never be even approximately as good.
In the case of the rumored FF NEX, If I have to carry two extra batteries for extended VF use with say a 70-300mm lens on a hike, it completely outweighs the weight advantage of a FF NEX +...Show more →
I have only the 1 battery for my Nex. I've never encountered drain that would require multiple batteries for something like a hike. We probably shoot differently though.
We should not underestimate technology. So much is invested to improve portable device battery life, there are bound to be advances.
The benefits of EVF will outweigh issues like power consumption.
Aug 08, 2013 at 04:13 AM
p.20 #2Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
SKumar25 wrote:
To the level of zero power as an OVF has, it is impossible.
The problems with EVF and power, is that the demands for quality like an OVF drives the power consumption up (refresh rate, brightness, size). All we can hope for, is that the technology will give a battery life that is sufficient, but it will never be even approximately as good.
In the case of the rumored FF NEX, If I have to carry two extra batteries for extended VF use with say a 70-300mm lens on a hike, it completely outweighs the weight advantage of a FF NEX + adapter vs a D800 that I have.
FF NEX + adapter: 400g+20% + 150g = ~650 g
D800: ~850 gI have only the 1 battery for my Nex. I've never encountered drain that would require multiple batteries for something like a hike. We probably shoot differently though.
We should not underestimate technology. So much is invested to improve portable device battery life, there are bound to be advances.
The benefits of EVF will outweigh issues like power consumption.
Agree that the EVF will be very good and power consumption is a price we have to pay.
As for underestimating technology, I am not as optimistic as you reagrding battery life in actual products for the next 10-15 years. Li-Ion battery packs are not breaking new ground, and there is no sight of alternatives for consumers. Actually, the development of battery life in many cameras is now going in the reverse direction. CIPA estimation for the NEX 6 is 360 shots while it was 460 for the 5N.
Also, new technology is often motivated by lower production cost rather than higher performance, and it takes some additional years for the new tech to catch up even after the old has diminished.
alundeb wrote
SKumar25 wrote
Will it be impossible to solve battery life issues over time?The problems with EVF and power, is that the demands for quality like an OVF drives the power consumption up (refresh rate, brightness, size). All we can hope for, is that the technology will give a battery life that is sufficient, but it will never be even approximately as good.
In the case of the rumored FF NEX, If I have to carry two extra batteries for extended VF use with say a 70-300mm lens on a hike, it completely outweighs the weight advantage of a FF NEX + adapter vs a D800 that I have.
FF NEX + adapter: 400g+20% + 150g = ~650 g
D800: ~850 g
We should not underestimate technology. So much is invested to improve portable device battery life, there are bound to be advances.
The benefits of EVF will outweigh issues like power consumption.
Agree that the EVF will be very good and power consumption is a price we have to pay.
As for underestimating technology, I am not as optimistic as you reagrding battery life in actual products for the next 10-15 years. Li-Ion battery packs are not breaking new ground, and there is no sight of alternatives for consumers. Actually, the development of battery life in many cameras is now going in the reverse direction. CIPA estimation for the NEX 6 is 360 shots while it was 460 for the 5N.
Also, new technology is often motivated by lower production cost rather than higher performance, and it takes some additional years for the new tech to catch up even after the old has diminished.
Aug 08, 2013 at 04:47 AM
p.20 #3Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Not sure if this has been mentioned earlier but it seems the EVF of the FF Nex will have 1.25x magnification, and the Zeiss zoom will be a 16-80/2,8-4.
Aug 08, 2013 at 04:56 AM
p.20 #4Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
edwardkaraa wrote:
Not sure if this has been mentioned earlier but it seems the EVF of the FF Nex will have 1.25x magnification, and the Zeiss zoom will be a 16-80/2,8-4.
If this comes from SAR, it is the replacement for the 7 (it says APS-C) and not the FF.
The same source also mentions IBIS, and if that is true it will be a paradigm shift for NEX as a system.
Not sure if this has been mentioned earlier but it seems the EVF of the FF Nex will have 1.25x magnification, and the Zeiss zoom will be a 16-80/2,8-4.
If this comes from SAR, it is the replacement for the 7 (it says APS-C) and not the FF.
The same source also mentions IBIS, and if that is true it will be a paradigm shift for NEX as a system.
Aug 08, 2013 at 05:02 AM
p.20 #5Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
alundeb wrote:
If this comes from SAR, it is the replacement for the 7 (it says APS-C) and not the FF.
The same source also mentions IBIS, and if that is true it will be a paradigm shift for NEX as a system.
Oops! I'm sorry! I don't know how I failed to see that
edwardkaraa wrote
Not sure if this has been mentioned earlier but it seems the EVF of the FF Nex will have 1.25x magnification, and the Zeiss zoom will be a 16-80/2,8-4.The same source also mentions IBIS, and if that is true it will be a paradigm shift for NEX as a system.
Oops! I'm sorry! I don't know how I failed to see that
Aug 08, 2013 at 05:06 AM
p.20 #6Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Because the headline says "too good to be true" ? 
Aug 08, 2013 at 05:09 AM
p.20 #7Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
edwardkaraa wrote:
Not sure if this has been mentioned earlier but it seems the EVF of the FF Nex will have 1.25x magnification, and the Zeiss zoom will be a 16-80/2,8-4.
If this 16-80/2.8 zoom from Zeiss will be available as well, then for me it becomes very attractive to buy the new Nex and this zoom. Although I have quite some doubts about the longer-term future of a Sony-product.
Now let's wait an see what is coming.
Not sure if this has been mentioned earlier but it seems the EVF of the FF Nex will have 1.25x magnification, and the Zeiss zoom will be a 16-80/2,8-4.
If this 16-80/2.8 zoom from Zeiss will be available as well, then for me it becomes very attractive to buy the new Nex and this zoom. Although I have quite some doubts about the longer-term future of a Sony-product.
Now let's wait an see what is coming.
Aug 08, 2013 at 06:17 AM
p.20 #8Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
aleksanderpolo wrote:
GXR: one button toggle focus assist on/off, another button toggle magnification on/off. Mode 2 is extremely easy to see, so you can focus on subject's eye and see the plane of focus clearly, for example. Half press shutter momentarily return to normal view for framing and metering, release the half press will go back to focus assist/magnification so you don't need to toggle it on again with another button press. It's the little things that make it work.
Pretty much sums it up for me. More than a couple levels of magnification are wasted on me, but yes additional resolution and a movable focus point would be useful. That being said I find the implementation of focus assist in the GXR far more helpful for the way I work. Obviously we all find our own way of working with manual focus.
GXR: one button toggle focus assist on/off, another button toggle magnification on/off. Mode 2 is extremely easy to see, so you can focus on subject's eye and see the plane of focus clearly, for example. Half press shutter momentarily return to normal view for framing and metering, release the half press will go back to focus assist/magnification so you don't need to toggle it on again with another button press. It's the little things that make it work.
Pretty much sums it up for me. More than a couple levels of magnification are wasted on me, but yes additional resolution and a movable focus point would be useful. That being said I find the implementation of focus assist in the GXR far more helpful for the way I work. Obviously we all find our own way of working with manual focus.
Aug 08, 2013 at 07:12 AM
p.20 #9Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
alundeb wrote:
also how long does it take you to wear down the battery with continuous use?
That was my original question, and it was meant literally. I actually want to test it out, with the VF continuously active.
Just checking (I'm sure you know), the EVF powers off when your eye's not near it. The OVF is obviously "on" all the time.
The test you suggest is for when EVF is powered on non stop, which is not typical usage. Perhaps it is when shooting a video.
Edited on Aug 08, 2013 at 07:46 AM · View previous versions
also how long does it take you to wear down the battery with continuous use?
That was my original question, and it was meant literally. I actually want to test it out, with the VF continuously active.
Just checking (I'm sure you know), the EVF powers off when your eye's not near it. The OVF is obviously "on" all the time.
The test you suggest is for when EVF is powered on non stop, which is not typical usage. Perhaps it is when shooting a video.
Edited on Aug 08, 2013 at 07:46 AM · View previous versions
Aug 08, 2013 at 07:40 AM
p.20 #10Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
alundeb wrote:
Also, new technology is often motivated by lower production cost rather than higher performance, and it takes some additional years for the new tech to catch up even after the old has diminished.
True.
Also, new technology is often motivated by lower production cost rather than higher performance, and it takes some additional years for the new tech to catch up even after the old has diminished.
True.
Aug 08, 2013 at 07:45 AM
p.20 #11Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
alundeb wrote:
Not even when doing 500-1000 height meters per day?
nope, space is always more of premium than weight. camera weight is always negligible compared to water anyway.
alundeb wrote:
That was my original question, and it was meant literally. I actually want to test it out, with the VF continuously active.
that would be hard to test in a controlled way.
sebboh wrote
i don't think i ever take weight into consideration.nope, space is always more of premium than weight. camera weight is always negligible compared to water anyway.
alundeb wrote:
That was my original question, and it was meant literally. I actually want to test it out, with the VF continuously active.
that would be hard to test in a controlled way.
Aug 08, 2013 at 08:33 AM
p.20 #12Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
SKumar25 wrote:
The test you suggest is for when EVF is powered on non stop, which is not typical usage. Perhaps it is when shooting a video.
The quintessential case is for wildlife, waiting for the right moment, that can take a while.
The test you suggest is for when EVF is powered on non stop, which is not typical usage. Perhaps it is when shooting a video.
The quintessential case is for wildlife, waiting for the right moment, that can take a while.
Aug 08, 2013 at 09:03 AM
p.20 #13Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
sebboh wrote:
that would be hard to test in a controlled way.
It can be tested effortlessly with sufficient accuracy, I just did it.
Leave the camera on the table, put something in front of the proximity detector.
I did this for 2 periods of 30 minutes.
The battery state started at 57% and ended at 33% after one hour. The camera got warm. The LCD was off.
That gets me about 4 hours wieving time on a full charge.
Of course I can do the test more accurately, but now we know which territory we are in.
that would be hard to test in a controlled way.
It can be tested effortlessly with sufficient accuracy, I just did it.
Leave the camera on the table, put something in front of the proximity detector.
I did this for 2 periods of 30 minutes.
The battery state started at 57% and ended at 33% after one hour. The camera got warm. The LCD was off.
That gets me about 4 hours wieving time on a full charge.
Of course I can do the test more accurately, but now we know which territory we are in.
Aug 08, 2013 at 09:08 AM
p.20 #14Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
alundeb wrote:
The quintessential case is for wildlife, waiting for the right moment, that can take a while.
+1
Battery life issues aside, after limited experience with EVF cameras (Sony a65) I prefer an optical viewfinder. Focus peaking highlights too broad a range, manual focus wth peaking off is difficult to nail precisely, the smearing of a moving subject makes either of these focussing methods unusable, and magnification with a moving subject is a no-go. I do like seeing the exposure in the viewfinder, however.
SKumar25 wrote
The test you suggest is for when EVF is powered on non stop, which is not typical usage. Perhaps it is when shooting a video.+1
Battery life issues aside, after limited experience with EVF cameras (Sony a65) I prefer an optical viewfinder. Focus peaking highlights too broad a range, manual focus wth peaking off is difficult to nail precisely, the smearing of a moving subject makes either of these focussing methods unusable, and magnification with a moving subject is a no-go. I do like seeing the exposure in the viewfinder, however.
Aug 08, 2013 at 09:15 AM
p.20 #15Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
alundeb wrote:
It can be tested effortlessly with sufficient accuracy, I just did it.
Leave the camera on the table, put something in front of the proximity detector.
I did this for 2 periods of 30 minutes.
The battery state started at 57% and ended at 33% after one hour. The camera got warm. The LCD was off.
That gets me about 4 hours wieving time on a full charge.
Of course I can do the test more accurately, but now we know which territory we are in.
Which camera was this?
sebboh wrote
that would be hard to test in a controlled way.Leave the camera on the table, put something in front of the proximity detector.
I did this for 2 periods of 30 minutes.
The battery state started at 57% and ended at 33% after one hour. The camera got warm. The LCD was off.
That gets me about 4 hours wieving time on a full charge.
Of course I can do the test more accurately, but now we know which territory we are in.
Which camera was this?
Aug 08, 2013 at 09:48 AM
p.20 #16Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
It was the NEX 7.
Just above 4 Hours EVF time per charge was a little less than I expected. According to SAR (SR2), the next generation EVF will have 12% lower power consumption.
Just above 4 Hours EVF time per charge was a little less than I expected. According to SAR (SR2), the next generation EVF will have 12% lower power consumption.
Aug 08, 2013 at 10:00 AM
p.20 #17Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
alundeb wrote:
It can be tested effortlessly with sufficient accuracy, I just did it.
Leave the camera on the table, put something in front of the proximity detector.
I did this for 2 periods of 30 minutes.
The battery state started at 57% and ended at 33% after one hour. The camera got warm. The LCD was off.
That gets me about 4 hours wieving time on a full charge.
Of course I can do the test more accurately, but now we know which territory we are in.
that doesn't seem like real world usage though. you need fire the shutter at some rate as well as possibly powering the lens focus and IS.
sebboh wrote
that would be hard to test in a controlled way.Leave the camera on the table, put something in front of the proximity detector.
I did this for 2 periods of 30 minutes.
The battery state started at 57% and ended at 33% after one hour. The camera got warm. The LCD was off.
That gets me about 4 hours wieving time on a full charge.
Of course I can do the test more accurately, but now we know which territory we are in.
that doesn't seem like real world usage though. you need fire the shutter at some rate as well as possibly powering the lens focus and IS.
Aug 08, 2013 at 10:02 AM
p.20 #18Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
sebboh wrote:
that doesn't seem like real world usage though. you need fire the shutter at some rate as well as possibly powering the lens focus and IS.
The test was of how much power is required to keep the EVF alive. It should not be too difficult to estimate the consequences for total power consumption of using an EVF in any use case you want.
that doesn't seem like real world usage though. you need fire the shutter at some rate as well as possibly powering the lens focus and IS.
The test was of how much power is required to keep the EVF alive. It should not be too difficult to estimate the consequences for total power consumption of using an EVF in any use case you want.
Aug 08, 2013 at 10:15 AM
p.20 #19Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
alundeb wrote:
The test was of how much power is required to keep the EVF alive. It should not be too difficult to estimate the consequences for total power consumption of using an EVF in any use case you want.
I'd much appreciate your insight in estimating battery life at colder ambient temperatures?
sebboh wrote
that doesn't seem like real world usage though. you need fire the shutter at some rate as well as possibly powering the lens focus and IS.I'd much appreciate your insight in estimating battery life at colder ambient temperatures?
Aug 08, 2013 at 10:24 AM
p.20 #20Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Jon Tainton wrote:
The test was of how much power is required to keep the EVF alive. It should not be too difficult to estimate the consequences for total power consumption of using an EVF in any use case you want.I'd much appreciate your insight in estimating battery life at colder ambient temperatures?
We have climate testing equimpent at my workplace, and I don't think it is occupied right now. What temperature would you prefer the test done at?
alundeb wrote
sebboh wrote
that doesn't seem like real world usage though. you need fire the shutter at some rate as well as possibly powering the lens focus and IS.We have climate testing equimpent at my workplace, and I don't think it is occupied right now. What temperature would you prefer the test done at?
Aug 08, 2013 at 10:41 AM