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Archive 2013Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
p.18 #1Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Yeah, but I'm not convinced at all that sony's strategy in the NEX line is to sell lenses. If it were I'd expect better lenses. It seems like they are happy selling people a new NEX every couple of years. In my case it has worked. I bought a nex3 on firesale because it was cheap, and I liked it enough that I later bought a couple of nex7s. The fact that they are iterating the 7 so soon (it is really soon compared to how long we had the A900 and A700) to me is indicative that they feel they can sell minor upgrades. I'm suspicious that they are correct, their sensors keep improving and had I not jumped completely into full-frame and sold my nex7s I could see myself being interested in a nex7q.
I think the FF thing rather surprised them, they thought the VG900 would only compete against the 5Dmk2-3. I also think that if they can get the price down, many of us would snap up a FFnex with all the same problems as the 7 and VG900 because 'normal' lenses are normal and as far as I saw they are ok even on the VG900.
As for converts, some will come if the camera is unique. The addicts who already said: "Hey I like being able to adapt anything, and having a top sensor in a package that CAN be made small enough to toss in a cargo pocket" will continue to feel that way and continue to buy new sensors every 2 years or so.
I'm sure they are holding things in reserve I mean here is a possible future:
2013 FFnex 38mpix
2015 FFnex 38mpix +12mpix clear AF sensors that also help for low light
2017 FFnex 60mpix +SNAP electronic shutter (fires off 1/4 of a second of shots and chooses the most in focus) firmware update in spring 2018 gives an update to enable "focus trap" with MF lenses.
(you can easily replace 38 with 24 and make the shifts that way. I just really don't see Sony letting Nikon hold the mpix crown for much longer.)
I really think that sony might be trying to sell cameras like they sell phones, many different ones that you upgrade as a status symbol. For me I'm excited as I like getting to know new sensors every few years.
I think the FF thing rather surprised them, they thought the VG900 would only compete against the 5Dmk2-3. I also think that if they can get the price down, many of us would snap up a FFnex with all the same problems as the 7 and VG900 because 'normal' lenses are normal and as far as I saw they are ok even on the VG900.
As for converts, some will come if the camera is unique. The addicts who already said: "Hey I like being able to adapt anything, and having a top sensor in a package that CAN be made small enough to toss in a cargo pocket" will continue to feel that way and continue to buy new sensors every 2 years or so.
I'm sure they are holding things in reserve I mean here is a possible future:
2013 FFnex 38mpix
2015 FFnex 38mpix +12mpix clear AF sensors that also help for low light
2017 FFnex 60mpix +SNAP electronic shutter (fires off 1/4 of a second of shots and chooses the most in focus) firmware update in spring 2018 gives an update to enable "focus trap" with MF lenses.
(you can easily replace 38 with 24 and make the shifts that way. I just really don't see Sony letting Nikon hold the mpix crown for much longer.)
I really think that sony might be trying to sell cameras like they sell phones, many different ones that you upgrade as a status symbol. For me I'm excited as I like getting to know new sensors every few years.
Aug 02, 2013 at 10:54 AM
p.18 #2Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
I want to see Sony kick leica's a$$ a bit. Just can't wait 
Aug 02, 2013 at 11:25 AM
p.18 #3Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
If the new CEO is as much of a samurai as I think he may be, Sony's days of playing the willing bridesmaid be over. No one throws bouquets in this market, and being number one in a tomorrow that never comes won't help cash flow today.
The lens led strategy was never going to please fussy DSLR-istas...where is my 15mm TS, what are you doing re a 70-200/4 zoom? Why are ZAs so expensive? And so on and so forth. [Also, keep your eye on Sigma, who may eat everyone's lunch in the mass market soon.]
Final question: if no one could ever fit any non-Sony lens to any NEX, how well would NEX have sold? for those who remember the release of the series back in May 2010 (seems much longer) ...serious question as I have no idea. This page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_NEX-5
..wastes little time before moving onto adapted lenses, including of course A mount lenses:
"Initially, there were three available lenses: an all-purpose 18–55 mm lens, an ultra wide pancake 16 mm lens, and a wide range 18–200 mm E-mount lens."
How would that have worked out compared to Fuji et al?
LL said in May 2010:
'Sony's engineers and marketing people had a mandate when it came to the design of the NEX-5, and unfortunately the needs of the more advanced photographer were not part of that brief.'
The lens led strategy was never going to please fussy DSLR-istas...where is my 15mm TS, what are you doing re a 70-200/4 zoom? Why are ZAs so expensive? And so on and so forth. [Also, keep your eye on Sigma, who may eat everyone's lunch in the mass market soon.]
Final question: if no one could ever fit any non-Sony lens to any NEX, how well would NEX have sold? for those who remember the release of the series back in May 2010 (seems much longer) ...serious question as I have no idea. This page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_NEX-5
..wastes little time before moving onto adapted lenses, including of course A mount lenses:
"Initially, there were three available lenses: an all-purpose 18–55 mm lens, an ultra wide pancake 16 mm lens, and a wide range 18–200 mm E-mount lens."
How would that have worked out compared to Fuji et al?
LL said in May 2010:
'Sony's engineers and marketing people had a mandate when it came to the design of the NEX-5, and unfortunately the needs of the more advanced photographer were not part of that brief.'
Aug 02, 2013 at 04:44 PM
p.18 #4Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
According to SAR (SR4) FF NEX will have 15% more volume and 20% more weight but will have the NEX 7 design.
Aug 07, 2013 at 07:29 AM
p.18 #5Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
- Will definitely come with a metal body. Polycarbonate housing with metal flange may not withstand the weight of some longer FF lenses on a slim body.
- Hopefully comes with a register distance not longer than 25-26mm with large flange diameter, so the M-mount lenses could be used with thin metal adapters bayonets going inside. (Remote possibility though... most probably the mount would allow only Sony-Zeiss designed lenses; to accelerate the amortization of the investment for the body.)
- Hopefully comes with offset microlenses and "provision" against optical crosstalk amongst sensor cells to allow usage of rangefinder-type lenses. Otherwise retrofocus design lenses like the 24/1.8 may offset the size advantages the new body would offer.
- IMHO, the RX1/R series would be hard to replace as far as the 35mm IQ is concerned, at least for a couple of years ahead.
- Hopefully comes with a register distance not longer than 25-26mm with large flange diameter, so the M-mount lenses could be used with thin metal adapters bayonets going inside. (Remote possibility though... most probably the mount would allow only Sony-Zeiss designed lenses; to accelerate the amortization of the investment for the body.)
- Hopefully comes with offset microlenses and "provision" against optical crosstalk amongst sensor cells to allow usage of rangefinder-type lenses. Otherwise retrofocus design lenses like the 24/1.8 may offset the size advantages the new body would offer.
- IMHO, the RX1/R series would be hard to replace as far as the 35mm IQ is concerned, at least for a couple of years ahead.
Aug 07, 2013 at 08:27 AM
p.18 #6Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
vovkinson wrote:
I want to see Sony kick leica's a$$ a bit. Just can't wait
So in this David v. Goliath rivalry you have imagined, you're siding with Team Goliath? Even if watching David get his ass kicked means no more beautiful little lenses?
I want to see Sony kick leica's a$$ a bit. Just can't wait
So in this David v. Goliath rivalry you have imagined, you're siding with Team Goliath? Even if watching David get his ass kicked means no more beautiful little lenses?
Aug 07, 2013 at 02:06 PM
p.18 #7Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Me too, FLM, I'd love to see Sony do great (make that 'even better') at the high end. And capitalism rewards innovators - who dares wins!
I see Leica as a magnificent company that has been indolent and unresponsive to the needs of even their own adoring (and cashed up) consumer base. Thay erected this mystique (the red dot syndrome) and tried for too long to milk it by charging outrageous sums of money for too too little - as exemplified so recently with the silly PR campaign before the release of the lead balloon known as the Vario X...it will be 'ex' very soon as in the past tense, and in terms of sales figures and resale prices. Steve Huff calls it the 'good, bad and the ugly'...well, two out of three ain't bad.
So stick up for the weedy guy with all the cash and inheritance if you wish, but don't expect much support in the marketplace.
Leica (or whomever they get eventually taken over by, hopefully someone more enlightened and in touch with the 21st century) can make all the lenses they want, and they should - this is exactly the Zeiss model, and all the better Sony's wear them with pride.
And, is Zeiss Goliath's coach and mentor in your metaphor ;-) What about C/N - how about Incredible Hulk and Cyclops - don't get them mad...lol.
Bob, I think you will find the reg distance is E mount, it's an E mount camera, the FF NEX. Glad to hear its so small. Also of note is the rumour of a Zeiss zoom - wow, that is big news, IMO. I hope that comes to pass into reality.
Unlike with the red dot lot, $3000 buys a lot of camera from firm Goliath, who moves much faster than David ever dreamed possible.
I see Leica as a magnificent company that has been indolent and unresponsive to the needs of even their own adoring (and cashed up) consumer base. Thay erected this mystique (the red dot syndrome) and tried for too long to milk it by charging outrageous sums of money for too too little - as exemplified so recently with the silly PR campaign before the release of the lead balloon known as the Vario X...it will be 'ex' very soon as in the past tense, and in terms of sales figures and resale prices. Steve Huff calls it the 'good, bad and the ugly'...well, two out of three ain't bad.
So stick up for the weedy guy with all the cash and inheritance if you wish, but don't expect much support in the marketplace.
Leica (or whomever they get eventually taken over by, hopefully someone more enlightened and in touch with the 21st century) can make all the lenses they want, and they should - this is exactly the Zeiss model, and all the better Sony's wear them with pride.
And, is Zeiss Goliath's coach and mentor in your metaphor ;-) What about C/N - how about Incredible Hulk and Cyclops - don't get them mad...lol.
Bob, I think you will find the reg distance is E mount, it's an E mount camera, the FF NEX. Glad to hear its so small. Also of note is the rumour of a Zeiss zoom - wow, that is big news, IMO. I hope that comes to pass into reality.
Unlike with the red dot lot, $3000 buys a lot of camera from firm Goliath, who moves much faster than David ever dreamed possible.
Aug 07, 2013 at 04:04 PM
p.18 #8Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Unless Leica moves away from using the rangefinder, or someone makes a less expensive digital rangefinder, there is always going to be a large base of Leica users that stick to the brand, even if a FF NEX plays well with all M lenses and is only $1500.
Aug 07, 2013 at 04:17 PM
p.18 #9Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
douglasf13 wrote:
Unless Leica moves away from using the rangefinder, or someone makes a less expensive digital rangefinder, there is always going to be a large base of Leica users that stick to the brand, even if a FF NEX plays well with all M lenses and is only $1500.
i agree with this statement except for the use of the word large.
Unless Leica moves away from using the rangefinder, or someone makes a less expensive digital rangefinder, there is always going to be a large base of Leica users that stick to the brand, even if a FF NEX plays well with all M lenses and is only $1500.
i agree with this statement except for the use of the word large.
Aug 07, 2013 at 04:19 PM
p.18 #10Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
douglasf13 wrote:
Unless Leica moves away from using the rangefinder, or someone makes a less expensive digital rangefinder, there is always going to be a large base of Leica users that stick to the brand, even if a FF NEX plays well with all M lenses and is only $1500.
I think a lot of that user base would get the FF Nex as a back up body. After that, they may be a little slower to upgrade to the next $9K M body.
Unless Leica moves away from using the rangefinder, or someone makes a less expensive digital rangefinder, there is always going to be a large base of Leica users that stick to the brand, even if a FF NEX plays well with all M lenses and is only $1500.
I think a lot of that user base would get the FF Nex as a back up body. After that, they may be a little slower to upgrade to the next $9K M body.
Aug 07, 2013 at 04:28 PM
p.18 #11Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
sebboh wrote:
i agree with this statement except for the use of the word large.
It is tough to say, but if I had to take a wild guess, I'd say at least half, judging by Leica-specific forums. Granted, those shooters would probably still buy a FF NEX as a backup, so it probably doesn't matter.
douglasf13 wrote
Unless Leica moves away from using the rangefinder, or someone makes a less expensive digital rangefinder, there is always going to be a large base of Leica users that stick to the brand, even if a FF NEX plays well with all M lenses and is only $1500.It is tough to say, but if I had to take a wild guess, I'd say at least half, judging by Leica-specific forums. Granted, those shooters would probably still buy a FF NEX as a backup, so it probably doesn't matter.
Aug 07, 2013 at 04:34 PM
p.18 #12Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
vovkinson wrote:
I want to see Sony kick leica's a$$ a bit. Just can't wait
Yea.. that sorta happens, but sorta wont.
Cause even if Sony made FF mirrorless. I will still want M9 or M-E. I guess I wont be only one.. Leica is different. Sony can maybe remove bit of their customers, but really not that much.
I want to see Sony kick leica's a$$ a bit. Just can't wait
Yea.. that sorta happens, but sorta wont.
Cause even if Sony made FF mirrorless. I will still want M9 or M-E. I guess I wont be only one.. Leica is different. Sony can maybe remove bit of their customers, but really not that much.
Aug 07, 2013 at 05:00 PM
p.18 #13Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
freaklikeme wrote:
So in this David v. Goliath rivalry you have imagined, you're siding with Team Goliath? Even if watching David get his ass kicked means no more beautiful little lenses?
If it meant no more beautiful little lenses, no.
But if it meant Leica realizing that they couldn't compete in the digital camera game - something everyone except them has known since the day they got into the digital camera game - and refocused their resources exclusively on lenses (their true strength), yes.
vovkinson wrote
I want to see Sony kick leica's a$$ a bit. Just can't waitIf it meant no more beautiful little lenses, no.
But if it meant Leica realizing that they couldn't compete in the digital camera game - something everyone except them has known since the day they got into the digital camera game - and refocused their resources exclusively on lenses (their true strength), yes.
Aug 07, 2013 at 05:03 PM
p.18 #14Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
douglasf13 wrote:
Unless Leica moves away from using the rangefinder, or someone makes a less expensive digital rangefinder, there is always going to be a large base of Leica users that stick to the brand, even if a FF NEX plays well with all M lenses and is only $1500.
This. ^
Shooting with a rangefinder is a different experience than other camera shooting. Even the Fuji X100s with digital-split image focusing feels VERY different from using a rangefinder. Part of Leica's appeal is being the only modern digital rangefinder on the market.
Unless Leica moves away from using the rangefinder, or someone makes a less expensive digital rangefinder, there is always going to be a large base of Leica users that stick to the brand, even if a FF NEX plays well with all M lenses and is only $1500.
This. ^
Shooting with a rangefinder is a different experience than other camera shooting. Even the Fuji X100s with digital-split image focusing feels VERY different from using a rangefinder. Part of Leica's appeal is being the only modern digital rangefinder on the market.
Aug 07, 2013 at 06:30 PM
p.18 #15Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Mescalamba wrote:
Yea.. that sorta happens, but sorta wont.
Cause even if Sony made FF mirrorless. I will still want M9 or M-E. I guess I wont be only one.. Leica is different. Sony can maybe remove bit of their customers, but really not that much.
Agreed here Kudos to Sony for challenging the FF arena! I just updated to the M240 and love the new ergonomics and IQ. I also have the M-M, but both these bodies are just work horses for my set of M lenses, of which I love the Mandler design.
I do have also the RX1R which is amazing! Sony sensor technology is brilliant combined with the Zeiss 35/2 Sonnar design. The unknown is, as great as Sony's sensors are, the question is how they integrate the optic design with these new lenses. The RX1/RX1R works because of the tightly tolerance'd design and seems to have bypassed a lot of these issues.
vovkinson wrote
I want to see Sony kick leica's a$$ a bit. Just can't waitCause even if Sony made FF mirrorless. I will still want M9 or M-E. I guess I wont be only one.. Leica is different. Sony can maybe remove bit of their customers, but really not that much.
Agreed here
Kudos to Sony for challenging the FF arena! I just updated to the M240 and love the new ergonomics and IQ. I also have the M-M, but both these bodies are just work horses for my set of M lenses, of which I love the Mandler design. I do have also the RX1R which is amazing! Sony sensor technology is brilliant combined with the Zeiss 35/2 Sonnar design. The unknown is, as great as Sony's sensors are, the question is how they integrate the optic design with these new lenses. The RX1/RX1R works because of the tightly tolerance'd design and seems to have bypassed a lot of these issues.
Aug 07, 2013 at 08:24 PM
p.18 #16Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
philip_pj wrote:
I see Leica as a magnificent company that has been indolent and unresponsive to the needs of even their own adoring (and cashed up) consumer base.
L O L. Say what you want (it's not all untrue), but recent history disagrees. The M9 and especially the M240 are pretty convincing evidence that Leica is forward looking yet responsive to their core, niche, group of fanboys. Full frame and rangefinders in both. Everything else is gravy. Still the only FF mirrorless *system* camera on the market.
Leica's a$$ has been getting kicked since at least the 60s.
It's now 2013 and they're still around.
As a very small player, Leica have managed to package a very solidly specced FF camera with a sensor that competes very favorably with other current products.
Sony is not exempt from screw-ups. They seem kind of haphazard with product development and commitment (kind of scary on the pro end). There's feature bloat. One could argue they're somewhat too eager to push out new tech before it's really ready. Ready for casual use perhaps, but the higher end SLTs I've demoed have fallen seriously flat (for my needs) compared to what I'm accustomed to with my Canon gear. The newfangled features just get in the way. Great if you're equating value based on the length of the spec sheet. Bad if you're actually relying on the product to perform to your own requirements.
With a FF NEX, I wonder what Sony will do to compromise it? I love what Sony is doing though, because it's pushing boundaries ignored by Canikon. Before NEX I pretty much didn't care about their offerings. The RX cameras though have probably been the most effective at compelling me to reconsider the brand.
To think they're gunning for Leica is IMO kind of laughable. Why should they care? Such a small market niche player is irrelevant in their race to catch and beat Canikon. If anything, it was Fuji who had the chance to really put the screws down on Leica's 'rangefinder experience,' but didn't.
Can't we all just get along?
(not to imply that the conversation here hasn't been civil)
I see Leica as a magnificent company that has been indolent and unresponsive to the needs of even their own adoring (and cashed up) consumer base.
L O L. Say what you want (it's not all untrue), but recent history disagrees. The M9 and especially the M240 are pretty convincing evidence that Leica is forward looking yet responsive to their core, niche, group of fanboys. Full frame and rangefinders in both. Everything else is gravy.
Still the only FF mirrorless *system* camera on the market.Leica's a$$ has been getting kicked since at least the 60s.
It's now 2013 and they're still around.
As a very small player, Leica have managed to package a very solidly specced FF camera with a sensor that competes very favorably with other current products.
Sony is not exempt from screw-ups. They seem kind of haphazard with product development and commitment (kind of scary on the pro end). There's feature bloat. One could argue they're somewhat too eager to push out new tech before it's really ready. Ready for casual use perhaps, but the higher end SLTs I've demoed have fallen seriously flat (for my needs) compared to what I'm accustomed to with my Canon gear. The newfangled features just get in the way. Great if you're equating value based on the length of the spec sheet. Bad if you're actually relying on the product to perform to your own requirements.
With a FF NEX, I wonder what Sony will do to compromise it? I love what Sony is doing though, because it's pushing boundaries ignored by Canikon. Before NEX I pretty much didn't care about their offerings. The RX cameras though have probably been the most effective at compelling me to reconsider the brand.
To think they're gunning for Leica is IMO kind of laughable. Why should they care? Such a small market niche player is irrelevant in their race to catch and beat Canikon. If anything, it was Fuji who had the chance to really put the screws down on Leica's 'rangefinder experience,' but didn't.
Can't we all just get along?
(not to imply that the conversation here hasn't been civil)Aug 07, 2013 at 08:39 PM
p.18 #17Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Sony would benefit if the FF Nex is out before Leica can catch up to the M240s demand.
Aug 07, 2013 at 09:05 PM
p.18 #18Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
A great Sony body, that's well designed and takes Leica M lenses via adaptor well will hurt Leica camera sales to some extent. Leica lens sales will probably go up though.
Sony can only challenge the Leica m system by partnering with a top glass manufacturer like Zeiss to make a Contax G type system. The camera and optics need to be first rate. Sony have a long way to go to achieve this. Their commitment could be questioned. Even when they get there, Leica will still have a market.
Ultimately competition is good. Many of the innovations in the Leica M are due to competition. Would like to see Sony push Leica to produce better products.
Sony can only challenge the Leica m system by partnering with a top glass manufacturer like Zeiss to make a Contax G type system. The camera and optics need to be first rate. Sony have a long way to go to achieve this. Their commitment could be questioned. Even when they get there, Leica will still have a market.
Ultimately competition is good. Many of the innovations in the Leica M are due to competition. Would like to see Sony push Leica to produce better products.
Aug 07, 2013 at 09:07 PM
p.18 #19Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
Could be, and maybe it would push Leica to release a non-RF version, as many have predicted/desired.
My guess is most NEX FF buyers would never be M buyers in the first place, for numerous of reasons. Even here in the alt forum, I suspect many legacy glass owners are primarily focused on SLR system lenses, not RF. Whatever Sony releases, I really, really doubt it will have a rangefinder (and one that is M compatible). If it doesn't, there is still a very strong reason for RF fans to keep their M240 orders in place.
If reviews such as those by Tim Ashley are to be believed, focus consistency is actually better with RF use than live view, meaning RF remains relevant. But based on his comments, that's not necessarily something you'd discover from the spec sheet list, but instead from actual experience with the camera...
My guess is most NEX FF buyers would never be M buyers in the first place, for numerous of reasons. Even here in the alt forum, I suspect many legacy glass owners are primarily focused on SLR system lenses, not RF. Whatever Sony releases, I really, really doubt it will have a rangefinder (and one that is M compatible). If it doesn't, there is still a very strong reason for RF fans to keep their M240 orders in place.
If reviews such as those by Tim Ashley are to be believed, focus consistency is actually better with RF use than live view, meaning RF remains relevant. But based on his comments, that's not necessarily something you'd discover from the spec sheet list, but instead from actual experience with the camera...
Aug 07, 2013 at 09:40 PM
p.18 #20Our prayers have been answered: Nex-FF in 2 months
rscheffler wrote:
If reviews such as those by Tim Ashley are to be believed, focus consistency is actually better with RF use than live view, meaning RF remains relevant. But based on his comments, that's not necessarily something you'd discover from the spec sheet list, but instead from actual experience with the camera...
People keep bringing this article up as proof that RF focusing is better than EVF focusing. I think a fair reading of what Tim Ashley is saying is that in his opinion RF focusing on the M240 is more accurate than EVF focusing on the M240. What he doesn't say is that M240 has probably has the worst implementation of EVF focusing of any of the high end cameras on the market today that have an EVF.
If reviews such as those by Tim Ashley are to be believed, focus consistency is actually better with RF use than live view, meaning RF remains relevant. But based on his comments, that's not necessarily something you'd discover from the spec sheet list, but instead from actual experience with the camera...
People keep bringing this article up as proof that RF focusing is better than EVF focusing. I think a fair reading of what Tim Ashley is saying is that in his opinion RF focusing on the M240 is more accurate than EVF focusing on the M240. What he doesn't say is that M240 has probably has the worst implementation of EVF focusing of any of the high end cameras on the market today that have an EVF.
Aug 07, 2013 at 09:54 PM