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Archive 2013So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
p.5 #1So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
robbymack wrote:
Honestly no one, other than dweebs on photo forums, looks at 100% crops or realistically cares about shadow noise.
If shooting the last 8 years have taught me anything - its this... Dweebs on photo forums and the only the most crazed of bridezillas...
Honestly no one, other than dweebs on photo forums, looks at 100% crops or realistically cares about shadow noise.
If shooting the last 8 years have taught me anything - its this... Dweebs on photo forums and the only the most crazed of bridezillas...
Jun 02, 2013 at 04:57 PM
p.5 #2So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
Can we examine the raw file of that couple?
Jun 02, 2013 at 05:07 PM
p.5 #3So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
yeah, good idea. we could help with some tips on noise management?
Jun 02, 2013 at 05:12 PM
p.5 #4So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
form wrote:
I can't recall specifically any of my clients complaining about shadow noise, but I bet they would if I charged more for the service I provide. I have also noticed it in my own images and been a little disturbed at times, even with high color NR. I remember the old days when I used to print ISO1600 from the Rebel XT and even in 4x6" prints the chroma noise showed. To me, these files (when pushed a bit) resemble that effect...except the blotches are much bigger and mostly green/magenta.
I should also note that about 50% of my clients never...Show more →
There are LOT of photographers who shoot weddings with the 5DIII and 5DII who charge a LOT more than you do probably. Your statement doesn't hold water if you charged more they would complain about the "noise" in the pics. None of those who charge higher than you would use the camera then.
Maybe something is wrong with your camera. send it in for service.
I can't recall specifically any of my clients complaining about shadow noise, but I bet they would if I charged more for the service I provide. I have also noticed it in my own images and been a little disturbed at times, even with high color NR. I remember the old days when I used to print ISO1600 from the Rebel XT and even in 4x6" prints the chroma noise showed. To me, these files (when pushed a bit) resemble that effect...except the blotches are much bigger and mostly green/magenta.
I should also note that about 50% of my clients never...Show more →
There are LOT of photographers who shoot weddings with the 5DIII and 5DII who charge a LOT more than you do probably. Your statement doesn't hold water if you charged more they would complain about the "noise" in the pics. None of those who charge higher than you would use the camera then.
Maybe something is wrong with your camera. send it in for service.
Jun 02, 2013 at 05:17 PM
p.5 #5So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
Y'know, he is in Las Vegas, and it's possible that the ambient temps, if he's above a hundred or so, could add a bit of noise, but I still want to see that raw file.
Jun 02, 2013 at 05:24 PM
p.5 #6So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
It seems many folks have conveniently forgotten Fred's review of the 5D3 and D800 which completely supports form's "criticism".
Unfortunately, form, you have been given the best advice if you want to keep with Canon glass and bodies: sit and wait, give up on shadow details and make those shadows black so no-one can tell it's not an Exmor sensor
There are some pictures the Canon just can't yet take. They are certainly working on it, but bypassing the competition's patents is not always easy.
Fred miranda wrote
It's no secret that the Canon 5D Mark II does not have the cleanest shadows even at base ISO 100. It's usually unnoticeable in good light if we don't start pushing it in post. However, even perfectly exposed shots in high contrast lighting will show, color and luma noise in the shadows when pushed one or two stops in software. To make matters worse, you might even find some banding or visible horizontal and vertical line patterns.
At this point, I was wondering how the 5D Mark III and D800 would deal with noise at base ISO. Canon shooters brace yourselves because I don't have good news.
In regards to the Nikon D800 handing of noise in the shadow areas, I have to say it's nothing short of amazing! Kudos to Sony and Nikon for the new sensor partnership. The Exmor sensor is exceptional and there is so much detail in the shadows. I can push the shadows more than 4 stops without any hint of color noise. WOW! Let's just say the D800 sensor is a breakthrough...Show more →
Unfortunately, form, you have been given the best advice if you want to keep with Canon glass and bodies: sit and wait, give up on shadow details and make those shadows black so no-one can tell it's not an Exmor sensor
There are some pictures the Canon just can't yet take. They are certainly working on it, but bypassing the competition's patents is not always easy.Fred miranda wrote
It's no secret that the Canon 5D Mark II does not have the cleanest shadows even at base ISO 100. It's usually unnoticeable in good light if we don't start pushing it in post. However, even perfectly exposed shots in high contrast lighting will show, color and luma noise in the shadows when pushed one or two stops in software. To make matters worse, you might even find some banding or visible horizontal and vertical line patterns.
At this point, I was wondering how the 5D Mark III and D800 would deal with noise at base ISO. Canon shooters brace yourselves because I don't have good news.
In regards to the Nikon D800 handing of noise in the shadow areas, I have to say it's nothing short of amazing! Kudos to Sony and Nikon for the new sensor partnership. The Exmor sensor is exceptional and there is so much detail in the shadows. I can push the shadows more than 4 stops without any hint of color noise. WOW! Let's just say the D800 sensor is a breakthrough...Show more →
Jun 02, 2013 at 05:34 PM
p.5 #7So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
Sunny Sra, its not his camera. It should be clear from the images of his I just reposted that his expectations are off the dial and he is getting sidetracked by largely inconspicuous details.
Peter:
AJSJones yep, I hate the way this forum has die hard mantra-screamers. Whilst a lot of the ETR crowd here demonstrate good work, they demonstrate lighting situations that are very very different to the work under discussion. Directly in the context of Fred's quote above, an outdoor wedding in Australia in January in bright sun will redefine 'high contrast' for many here.
Where I disagree with form is that its unmanageable. The only time its unmanageable is when I have really messed up. Form needs to do two things:
1) Recognize a high contrast scene and at least try and fill it. A little fill can go a long long way when trying to lift shadows.
2) Acknowledge that contrast exists and work with it. Not every shot needs to be perfectly lit and by approaching each shot with these blinkers on, he is going to miss stuff.
Form I think your work is pretty good, at least technically it is a lot further head than mine. However, if you just relaxed a bit, felt the force and stopped jamming your creativity through a narrow gap of preconceived technical perfection, you would be a major player. Your quest for perfection is costing you opportunities.
Peter:
AJSJones yep, I hate the way this forum has die hard mantra-screamers. Whilst a lot of the ETR crowd here demonstrate good work, they demonstrate lighting situations that are very very different to the work under discussion. Directly in the context of Fred's quote above, an outdoor wedding in Australia in January in bright sun will redefine 'high contrast' for many here.
Where I disagree with form is that its unmanageable. The only time its unmanageable is when I have really messed up. Form needs to do two things:
1) Recognize a high contrast scene and at least try and fill it. A little fill can go a long long way when trying to lift shadows.
2) Acknowledge that contrast exists and work with it. Not every shot needs to be perfectly lit and by approaching each shot with these blinkers on, he is going to miss stuff.
Form I think your work is pretty good, at least technically it is a lot further head than mine. However, if you just relaxed a bit, felt the force and stopped jamming your creativity through a narrow gap of preconceived technical perfection, you would be a major player. Your quest for perfection is costing you opportunities.
Jun 02, 2013 at 05:51 PM
p.5 #8So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
AJSJones wrote:
It seems many folks have conveniently forgotten Fred's review of the 5D3 and D800 which completely supports form's "criticism".
Are you kidding? We are all only too well of the limitations of the Canon sensors, yet most of us just get on with our lives and make the most of the tools we have available. How many different ways do you want this problem addressed. If you stay with Canon you accept it, because whining isn't bringing us a new sensor any faster, or you move to another manufacturer. It's not an unsolvable riddle.
Also while I and I'm sure most acknowledge the superiority of the Sony sensors in regards Form's complaints, we also see the camera as more than a one trick pony and still derive pleasure from using it for many reasons. Sure I'd love it if I could push shadows 5 stops in high contrast situations, but you find ways to work around the problem.
What's getting up peoples noses is the endless rehashing of the same complaint. What's even worse is he had a D800 and that didn't satisfy him either. How can he be helped? I suggest medium format then as the last possibility.
It seems many folks have conveniently forgotten Fred's review of the 5D3 and D800 which completely supports form's "criticism".
Are you kidding? We are all only too well of the limitations of the Canon sensors, yet most of us just get on with our lives and make the most of the tools we have available. How many different ways do you want this problem addressed. If you stay with Canon you accept it, because whining isn't bringing us a new sensor any faster, or you move to another manufacturer. It's not an unsolvable riddle.
Also while I and I'm sure most acknowledge the superiority of the Sony sensors in regards Form's complaints, we also see the camera as more than a one trick pony and still derive pleasure from using it for many reasons. Sure I'd love it if I could push shadows 5 stops in high contrast situations, but you find ways to work around the problem.
What's getting up peoples noses is the endless rehashing of the same complaint. What's even worse is he had a D800 and that didn't satisfy him either. How can he be helped? I suggest medium format then as the last possibility.
Jun 02, 2013 at 05:59 PM
p.5 #9So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
I'm really late to this thread, and I didn't read the whole thing, but wow, the OP needs to put things into perspective. First of all, if you don't like Canon, and it's so damned important to you, go shoot Nikon or whatever else you think is better. Second, do you remember film? Did you bitch and moan about shadow noise every time you shot at ISO 400 or higher? Canon digital DSLRs are better than ISO 400 film. Even the lowly Rebels. Lastly, what on Earth are you shooting that requires such perfect shadows?
Yeah, I'm a nobody. I'm not a professional. I'm not even a good photographer. However, there are thousands of professionals who do use Canon everyday for every conceivable photography job, and I'm pretty sure most of them aren't concerned with the shadow noise. I know several who shoot Canon, and they're quite happy with the system. In my opinion, if you can't make acceptable photos with Canon's system, then you're not destined to be a photographer. Yes, Nikon might be marginally better in this respect, so if it really bothers you, you know what you have to do. Bitching on a forum solves nothing.
I apologize if I've offended you.
Yeah, I'm a nobody. I'm not a professional. I'm not even a good photographer. However, there are thousands of professionals who do use Canon everyday for every conceivable photography job, and I'm pretty sure most of them aren't concerned with the shadow noise. I know several who shoot Canon, and they're quite happy with the system. In my opinion, if you can't make acceptable photos with Canon's system, then you're not destined to be a photographer. Yes, Nikon might be marginally better in this respect, so if it really bothers you, you know what you have to do. Bitching on a forum solves nothing.
I apologize if I've offended you.
Jun 02, 2013 at 06:21 PM
p.5 #10So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
bcguy wrote:
I'm really late to this thread, and I didn't read the whole thing, but wow, the OP needs to put things into perspective. First of all, if you don't like Canon, and it's so damned important to you, go shoot Nikon or whatever else you think is better. Second, do you remember film? Did you bitch and moan about shadow noise every time you shot at ISO 400 or higher? Canon digital DSLRs are better than ISO 400 film. Even the lowly Rebels. Lastly, what on Earth are you shooting that requires such perfect shadows?
Yeah, I'm a nobody. I'm...Show more →
Can we please post replies that add to this topic? Bashing OP isn't really doing anything except adding to an already overwhelming opinion that has been voiced many times before. People would do well to actually lok at Forms work before they kicked him in the balls, then they would realize that he is very good.
Can we at least give him the benefit of the doubt and try and help him? Without this approach then all we are doing is adding to the post count.
Someone earlier said that he knows how to post threads that go to 5+ pages. There is one simple and overarching reason for this: haters gonna hate.
If you aint got anything useful to say then please don't.
I'm really late to this thread, and I didn't read the whole thing, but wow, the OP needs to put things into perspective. First of all, if you don't like Canon, and it's so damned important to you, go shoot Nikon or whatever else you think is better. Second, do you remember film? Did you bitch and moan about shadow noise every time you shot at ISO 400 or higher? Canon digital DSLRs are better than ISO 400 film. Even the lowly Rebels. Lastly, what on Earth are you shooting that requires such perfect shadows?
Yeah, I'm a nobody. I'm...Show more →
Can we please post replies that add to this topic? Bashing OP isn't really doing anything except adding to an already overwhelming opinion that has been voiced many times before. People would do well to actually lok at Forms work before they kicked him in the balls, then they would realize that he is very good.
Can we at least give him the benefit of the doubt and try and help him? Without this approach then all we are doing is adding to the post count.
Someone earlier said that he knows how to post threads that go to 5+ pages. There is one simple and overarching reason for this: haters gonna hate.
If you aint got anything useful to say then please don't.
Jun 02, 2013 at 06:29 PM
p.5 #11So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
morganb4 wrote:
Yeah, I'm a nobody. I'm not a professional. I'm not even a good photographer. However, there are thousands of professionals who do use Canon everyday for every conceivable photography job, and I'm pretty sure most of them aren't concerned with the shadow noise. I know several who shoot Canon, and they're quite happy with the system. In my opinion, if you can't make acceptable photos with Canon's system, then you're not destined to be a photographer. Yes, Nikon might be marginally better in this respect, so if it really bothers you, you know what you have to do. Bitching on a forum solves nothing.
I apologize if I've offended you.Can we please post replies that add to this topic? Bashing OP isn't really doing anything except adding to an already overwhelming opinion that has been voiced many times before. People would do well to actually lok at Forms work before they kicked him in the balls, then they would realize that he is very good.
Can we at least give him the benefit of the doubt and try and help him? Without this approach then all we are doing is adding to the post count.
Someone earlier said that he knows how to post threads that go to 5+ pages....Show more →
Plenty of those have been added..over the months...similar threads about the D800 in the Nikon forums...go check.
Oh..and check the wedding forums also for additional feedback.
Nothing to do with haters gonna hate....lot of people have given him lot of feedback and options over the months in both wedding, canon and Nikon forums.
bcguy wrote
I'm really late to this thread, and I didn't read the whole thing, but wow, the OP needs to put things into perspective. First of all, if you don't like Canon, and it's so damned important to you, go shoot Nikon or whatever else you think is better. Second, do you remember film? Did you bitch and moan about shadow noise every time you shot at ISO 400 or higher? Canon digital DSLRs are better than ISO 400 film. Even the lowly Rebels. Lastly, what on Earth are you shooting that requires such perfect shadows?Yeah, I'm a nobody. I'm not a professional. I'm not even a good photographer. However, there are thousands of professionals who do use Canon everyday for every conceivable photography job, and I'm pretty sure most of them aren't concerned with the shadow noise. I know several who shoot Canon, and they're quite happy with the system. In my opinion, if you can't make acceptable photos with Canon's system, then you're not destined to be a photographer. Yes, Nikon might be marginally better in this respect, so if it really bothers you, you know what you have to do. Bitching on a forum solves nothing.
I apologize if I've offended you.
Can we at least give him the benefit of the doubt and try and help him? Without this approach then all we are doing is adding to the post count.
Someone earlier said that he knows how to post threads that go to 5+ pages....Show more →
Plenty of those have been added..over the months...similar threads about the D800 in the Nikon forums...go check.
Oh..and check the wedding forums also for additional feedback.
Nothing to do with haters gonna hate....lot of people have given him lot of feedback and options over the months in both wedding, canon and Nikon forums.
Jun 02, 2013 at 06:38 PM
p.5 #12So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
^ Yeah, I agree, I get that. He has posted lots of threads in the wedding forum too.
My point is still valid though - if people don't have anything helpful to add then they should just not post. The thread will then remain constructive and enrich the forum or it will just die a natural death.
Now he is posting actual shots we can see more closely where his expectations are unrealistic and are closer to getting him a solution. I still believe that this forum has the potential to get him over this gear focused stuff and make him a better shooter.
If no-one else agrees thats totally cool, just keep the attacks out of the thread as they don't help anyone . I really dont see how posts like bcguy's add anything whatsoever.
My point is still valid though - if people don't have anything helpful to add then they should just not post. The thread will then remain constructive and enrich the forum or it will just die a natural death.
Now he is posting actual shots we can see more closely where his expectations are unrealistic and are closer to getting him a solution. I still believe that this forum has the potential to get him over this gear focused stuff and make him a better shooter.
If no-one else agrees thats totally cool, just keep the attacks out of the thread as they don't help anyone . I really dont see how posts like bcguy's add anything whatsoever.
Jun 02, 2013 at 06:46 PM
p.5 #13So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
Morganb4, you are probably right. I mostly stay away from forums because I see this sort of thing and it makes me a bit angry. If I don't have anything nice to say, I should just shut my trap. I apologize and I'll try not to look at threads like this in the future.
Jun 02, 2013 at 06:56 PM
p.5 #15So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
_SBS_ wrote:
^ I agree with morgan. I would clean up the dirty glass roof a bit, but as a silhouette it looks great.
Form - I also dont understand why you gave up the d800...because you were worried about customer service if somthing broke because you read complaints on the internet? So, no actual experience with Nikon's customer service?
I already planned to clean the glass. Someone else mentioned small flashes, reflectors, etc. I didn't feel any inclination to use flash and I don't bring reflectors or have an assistant.
As for the D800...I wasn't really happy with the bokeh of the 85mm, the focus being somewhat inconsistent on lock (often slightly forward or backward, especially at 10-20 feet from the subject), and the live view being very sluggish in many of the steps including snapping a RAW photo (since I shoot RAW, there is no alternative for me). Fear of their customer service made me further concerned about longevity of the Nikon decision because I would not like to be wrongfully accused of dropping or drowning a camera. The combined effect of these experiences, especially when I added a dislike of the abrupt strong blue tint to blown highlights and the Caucasian skin tones not being as appealing to me, led me to sell it. I am still trying to sell the 35g.
^ I agree with morgan. I would clean up the dirty glass roof a bit, but as a silhouette it looks great.
Form - I also dont understand why you gave up the d800...because you were worried about customer service if somthing broke because you read complaints on the internet? So, no actual experience with Nikon's customer service?
I already planned to clean the glass. Someone else mentioned small flashes, reflectors, etc. I didn't feel any inclination to use flash and I don't bring reflectors or have an assistant.
As for the D800...I wasn't really happy with the bokeh of the 85mm, the focus being somewhat inconsistent on lock (often slightly forward or backward, especially at 10-20 feet from the subject), and the live view being very sluggish in many of the steps including snapping a RAW photo (since I shoot RAW, there is no alternative for me). Fear of their customer service made me further concerned about longevity of the Nikon decision because I would not like to be wrongfully accused of dropping or drowning a camera. The combined effect of these experiences, especially when I added a dislike of the abrupt strong blue tint to blown highlights and the Caucasian skin tones not being as appealing to me, led me to sell it. I am still trying to sell the 35g.
Jun 02, 2013 at 07:26 PM
p.5 #16So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
Have you tried using Rail Road Flares for lighting... off camera of course... They give off light that is very close to early morning light ... Wonderful effect... Should help with that pesky "noise problem" you seem to have a lot of...
RR Flare lighting will get people outside in that good 'ole sunshine... and the word of mouth you'll get on your style... Priceless...
RR Flare lighting will get people outside in that good 'ole sunshine... and the word of mouth you'll get on your style... Priceless...
Jun 02, 2013 at 07:47 PM
p.5 #17So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
I'm definitely not a better photographer than morganb4, and my processing isn't nearly as consistent, but I would like to see him have some more current stuff on his linked website/blog...
I would say that 95% of my threads are started when I have recently experienced symptoms of current issues that I have, whether camera-related or personal failures as a photographer. When I post about camera failings, it's right after I experienced them freshly (like a crisp reminder of something that bothers me). The most frustrating equipment issues for me on-the-job are focus problems. The most frustrating issues in post are related to dynamic range and shadow noise, with some noticing of focus problems after the fact. This thread was the same thing. I really want to continue using Canon's lenses and have their color profile, but they really need to do something about the shadow noise, especially the chroma stuff now. It's really bad.
I would say that 95% of my threads are started when I have recently experienced symptoms of current issues that I have, whether camera-related or personal failures as a photographer. When I post about camera failings, it's right after I experienced them freshly (like a crisp reminder of something that bothers me). The most frustrating equipment issues for me on-the-job are focus problems. The most frustrating issues in post are related to dynamic range and shadow noise, with some noticing of focus problems after the fact. This thread was the same thing. I really want to continue using Canon's lenses and have their color profile, but they really need to do something about the shadow noise, especially the chroma stuff now. It's really bad.
Jun 02, 2013 at 07:53 PM
p.5 #18So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
Ya know form, you come over here to this forum and people try to be nice and you take that as a weakness… fair enough…
Jun 02, 2013 at 07:58 PM
p.5 #19So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
Not going to add anything unfortunately as I have quit.
Jun 02, 2013 at 08:09 PM
p.5 #20So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
I make a reasonable effort to reach out and offer sound photographic advice and you don’t have the courtesy to respond… You should read Emily Post… You could stand a few lessons…
Jun 02, 2013 at 08:11 PM