This topic is in the 2013 archive. You can read it and like its posts here. It is read only.
Archive 2013So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
p.13 #1So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
D. Diggler wrote:
True! And of the small minority who do know about dynamic range, how many will leave Canon over it. Even on this board amongst those who know about Canon's very inferior dynamic range, the vast majority will stay with Canon because they don't want to take the loss in selling all their lenses to convert to Nikon. Or they can't tolerate Nikon ergonomics or don't want to learn a whole new menu system and way of operating a camera. All Canon cares about is dollars.
What should canon care about as a corporation then? Puppies and kittens? It's a business, just like many people's photography businesses on this website. Do your clients regularly complain that you charge them more for photos than your competition? Or when you release a photo album that is ever so slightly inferior to your competitors latest event coverage? I am not defending canon for using the same sensor tech over and over again for years, eventually that won't make financial sense anymore and they will have to change due to increasing pressure from Nikon but that is EXACTLY what is happening right now. Which, in the end, makes competitive markets so great for consumers - it forces companies to innovate against one another and drive the field forward. Canon probably pigeon holed themselves into their current sensor manufacturing processes and I am willing to bet that no one knows how much they shot themselves in the foot more than their current sensor engineers who likely have a boat load of pressure on themselves from the higher ups to solve this problem and regain competitiveness.
As it stands you have a few choices: continue using the older bodies with nearly identical sensors to the newer bodies minus some fancy new AF modules and ovarian from the current generation of cameras from canon, or you can buy the new bodies and deal with the fact that the sensors are hardly better - even at high ISOs (sorry but the ISO25600 on the mkIII is only a half stop more useable than the mk II in my opinion), or you can jump ship and swim to the SS Nikon or Sony and eat major losses on equipment. My plan? Suck it up and weather the current sensor storm through on my still excellent 5D2 and 1D3. Or I might finally cave and pick up a 5D3 one day while swearing about the wretched AF module in the mk2.
ggreene wrote
Where is consumer sentiment on low ISO DR? The vast majority don't even know what it is.What should canon care about as a corporation then? Puppies and kittens? It's a business, just like many people's photography businesses on this website. Do your clients regularly complain that you charge them more for photos than your competition? Or when you release a photo album that is ever so slightly inferior to your competitors latest event coverage? I am not defending canon for using the same sensor tech over and over again for years, eventually that won't make financial sense anymore and they will have to change due to increasing pressure from Nikon but that is EXACTLY what is happening right now. Which, in the end, makes competitive markets so great for consumers - it forces companies to innovate against one another and drive the field forward. Canon probably pigeon holed themselves into their current sensor manufacturing processes and I am willing to bet that no one knows how much they shot themselves in the foot more than their current sensor engineers who likely have a boat load of pressure on themselves from the higher ups to solve this problem and regain competitiveness.
As it stands you have a few choices: continue using the older bodies with nearly identical sensors to the newer bodies minus some fancy new AF modules and ovarian from the current generation of cameras from canon, or you can buy the new bodies and deal with the fact that the sensors are hardly better - even at high ISOs (sorry but the ISO25600 on the mkIII is only a half stop more useable than the mk II in my opinion), or you can jump ship and swim to the SS Nikon or Sony and eat major losses on equipment. My plan? Suck it up and weather the current sensor storm through on my still excellent 5D2 and 1D3. Or I might finally cave and pick up a 5D3 one day while swearing about the wretched AF module in the mk2.
Jun 05, 2013 at 12:45 AM
p.13 #2So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
form wrote:
It matters to me.
That's why I started the thread. Not because someone here has a solution, but because it should be acknowledged for what it is: Canon's shadow noise is inferior to the D600/D800/D4 and needs to be improved with the next update.
You know, if you just started the thread like this it would have been dead and buried a long time ago. Instead you let many people waste time and effort trying to help.
Canon's shadow noise is inferior to the D800 and it should be improved? NO SHIT! Tell us all something we don't know!
How duping people into wasting time and whining time and time again on these forums is going to help with shadow noise is beyond me. What do you think, Canon is actually listening? They listen to coins clinking. When that stops they might do something, but they are still not listening to you.
"Hey, Mr. Canon!"
"Yes, what is it?"
"Do you know that form is whining about shadow noise on the Interwebs?"
"OMG! Is he! Form! Whining? We must do something! Quickly, make a new sensor with Uber DR! I want to be able to push 4...NO 8! Make it 8 STOPS! And have clean, usable shadows! I dont want to just pull back from a completely dark room and amaze people with all the dynamic range as an image appears from the darkness. NO! I want to be able to shoot with the lens cap on and then push those shadows till I can see GOD! I want to be able to pull the highlights back just as much--No! Wait! I want to be able to pull out detail from completely blown channels! I want us to invent detail where there is none! WE MUST PLEASE FORM!!!"
It matters to me.
That's why I started the thread. Not because someone here has a solution, but because it should be acknowledged for what it is: Canon's shadow noise is inferior to the D600/D800/D4 and needs to be improved with the next update.
You know, if you just started the thread like this it would have been dead and buried a long time ago. Instead you let many people waste time and effort trying to help.
Canon's shadow noise is inferior to the D800 and it should be improved? NO SHIT! Tell us all something we don't know!
How duping people into wasting time and whining time and time again on these forums is going to help with shadow noise is beyond me. What do you think, Canon is actually listening? They listen to coins clinking. When that stops they might do something, but they are still not listening to you.
"Hey, Mr. Canon!"
"Yes, what is it?"
"Do you know that form is whining about shadow noise on the Interwebs?"
"OMG! Is he! Form! Whining? We must do something! Quickly, make a new sensor with Uber DR! I want to be able to push 4...NO 8! Make it 8 STOPS! And have clean, usable shadows! I dont want to just pull back from a completely dark room and amaze people with all the dynamic range as an image appears from the darkness. NO! I want to be able to shoot with the lens cap on and then push those shadows till I can see GOD! I want to be able to pull the highlights back just as much--No! Wait! I want to be able to pull out detail from completely blown channels! I want us to invent detail where there is none! WE MUST PLEASE FORM!!!"
Jun 05, 2013 at 02:17 AM
p.13 #3So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
form wrote:
That's why I started the thread. Not because someone here has a solution, but because it should be acknowledged for what it is: Canon's shadow noise is inferior to the D600/D800/D4 and needs to be improved with the next update.
Oh, so you figured that no one here - on a Canon SLR forum of all places - knew about about this plenty alreay? The fact that you doesn't care about people's suggestions to help you over until the hardware solution is at hand is quite frankly making you look beyond ungrateful.
OK, I'm out of this too. Wasted time.
That's why I started the thread. Not because someone here has a solution, but because it should be acknowledged for what it is: Canon's shadow noise is inferior to the D600/D800/D4 and needs to be improved with the next update.
Oh, so you figured that no one here - on a Canon SLR forum of all places - knew about about this plenty alreay? The fact that you doesn't care about people's suggestions to help you over until the hardware solution is at hand is quite frankly making you look beyond ungrateful.
OK, I'm out of this too. Wasted time.
Jun 05, 2013 at 02:19 AM
p.13 #4So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
me thinks you canonistas are a touchy lot.
Get over it. The 5D3 is a fine camera as is the D800
Tim
Get over it. The 5D3 is a fine camera as is the D800
Tim
Jun 05, 2013 at 04:16 AM
p.13 #5So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
jctriguy wrote:
Why are we assuming that "the vast majority" of people who are prepared to spend over $3000 on a camera body do not understand what dynamic range is?It isn't a matter of understanding what DR is. It is whether or not they think it is important or a deciding factor when purchasing a camera. If the vast majority are happy with the current Canon DR, why should Canon listen to the vocal minority? I would assume that Canon is very away of their current technology and the competitors current technology. They don't need a few people on a forum to let them know what the limitations are.
I wasn't the one who claimed that "only a small minority" know what dynamic range is and my point was that any one spending this much money on a DSLR likely is not ignorant of what dynamic range is.
How the usefulness of more dynamic range weighs against the other factors involved in choosing a camera system is a different matter. But, there are those like myself who continue to shoot Canon because of those other factors while simultaneously also wanting more dynamic range. It is possible to shoot and like Canon while still wanting more dynamic range.
Canon doesn't need to look at internet forums to understand their shortcomings. But any smart company is likely to be looking at forums to get a sense of how people are responding to their products, what the desires and expectations of the user base are, etc. If people don't ever express such things, what incentive does the manufacturer have to improve upon their products?
artd wrote
Let me ask this again but in a different phrasing:Why are we assuming that "the vast majority" of people who are prepared to spend over $3000 on a camera body do not understand what dynamic range is?
I wasn't the one who claimed that "only a small minority" know what dynamic range is and my point was that any one spending this much money on a DSLR likely is not ignorant of what dynamic range is.
How the usefulness of more dynamic range weighs against the other factors involved in choosing a camera system is a different matter. But, there are those like myself who continue to shoot Canon because of those other factors while simultaneously also wanting more dynamic range. It is possible to shoot and like Canon while still wanting more dynamic range.
Canon doesn't need to look at internet forums to understand their shortcomings. But any smart company is likely to be looking at forums to get a sense of how people are responding to their products, what the desires and expectations of the user base are, etc. If people don't ever express such things, what incentive does the manufacturer have to improve upon their products?
Jun 05, 2013 at 01:21 PM
p.13 #6So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
And for those who still refuse to believe that internet forums are actually a valuable tool that companies use to gain feedback, here's an interesting little article from the The Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania:
http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/wcai/files/Insights_Netzer_WCAI.pdf
If you don't want to read it and just want the highlight:
"Most experts agree that these large online consumer discussions boards, as well as a growing array of product rankings, ratings and review websites, carry the potential to revolutionize the world of market research, offering businesses a massive and free data base of what consumers think about their products."
http://www.wharton.upenn.edu/wcai/files/Insights_Netzer_WCAI.pdf
If you don't want to read it and just want the highlight:
"Most experts agree that these large online consumer discussions boards, as well as a growing array of product rankings, ratings and review websites, carry the potential to revolutionize the world of market research, offering businesses a massive and free data base of what consumers think about their products."
Jun 05, 2013 at 01:31 PM
p.13 #7So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
_SBS_ wrote:
Canon's shadow noise is inferior to the D800 and it should be improved? NO SHIT! Tell us all something we don't know!
How duping people into wasting time and whining time and time again on these forums is going to help with shadow noise is beyond me. What do you think, Canon is actually listening? They listen to coins clinking. When that stops they might do something, but they are still not listening to you.
"Hey, Mr. Canon!"
"Yes, what is it?"
"Do you know that form is whining about shadow noise on the Interwebs?"
"OMG! Is he! Form! Whining? We must do...Show more →
There are some very useful comments on this thread but the above summed it up!
Canon's shadow noise is inferior to the D800 and it should be improved? NO SHIT! Tell us all something we don't know!
How duping people into wasting time and whining time and time again on these forums is going to help with shadow noise is beyond me. What do you think, Canon is actually listening? They listen to coins clinking. When that stops they might do something, but they are still not listening to you.
"Hey, Mr. Canon!"
"Yes, what is it?"
"Do you know that form is whining about shadow noise on the Interwebs?"
"OMG! Is he! Form! Whining? We must do...Show more →
There are some very useful comments on this thread but the above summed it up!
Jun 05, 2013 at 01:45 PM
p.13 #8So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
Tim Ashton wrote:
me thinks you canonistas are a touchy lot.
Get over it. The 5D3 is a fine camera as is the D800
Tim
If you think the Canonistas are touchy, you should have heard all grief and whining from the Nikonistas during the 25 years prior to the D800. About time they get a small chance to gloat.
me thinks you canonistas are a touchy lot.
Get over it. The 5D3 is a fine camera as is the D800
Tim
If you think the Canonistas are touchy, you should have heard all grief and whining from the Nikonistas during the 25 years prior to the D800. About time they get a small chance to gloat.
Jun 05, 2013 at 01:48 PM
p.13 #9So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
_SBS_ wrote:
That's why I started the thread. Not because someone here has a solution, but because it should be acknowledged for what it is: Canon's shadow noise is inferior to the D600/D800/D4 and needs to be improved with the next update.You know, if you just started the thread like this it would have been dead and buried a long time ago. Instead you let many people waste time and effort trying to help.
Canon's shadow noise is inferior to the D800 and it should be improved? NO SHIT! Tell us all something we don't know!
How duping people into wasting time and whining time and time again on these forums is going to help with shadow noise is beyond me. What do you think, Canon is actually listening? They listen to coins clinking. When that stops they might do something,...Show more →
Yeah but when they see 300 threads with 300 posts on every forum and the DxO results and bloggers going on about that, etc. when you get tons and tons it CAN catch notice. If form posted a couple times to on forum and that was that, then yeah they will never notice.
And you say only sales matter, well tons of talk and people noticing this or that can lead to some changes in sales.
form wrote
It matters to me.That's why I started the thread. Not because someone here has a solution, but because it should be acknowledged for what it is: Canon's shadow noise is inferior to the D600/D800/D4 and needs to be improved with the next update.
Canon's shadow noise is inferior to the D800 and it should be improved? NO SHIT! Tell us all something we don't know!
How duping people into wasting time and whining time and time again on these forums is going to help with shadow noise is beyond me. What do you think, Canon is actually listening? They listen to coins clinking. When that stops they might do something,...Show more →
Yeah but when they see 300 threads with 300 posts on every forum and the DxO results and bloggers going on about that, etc. when you get tons and tons it CAN catch notice. If form posted a couple times to on forum and that was that, then yeah they will never notice.
And you say only sales matter, well tons of talk and people noticing this or that can lead to some changes in sales.
Jun 05, 2013 at 02:30 PM
p.13 #10So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
Fred Miranda wrote:
How duping people into wasting time and whining time and time again on these forums is going to help with shadow noise is beyond me. What do you think, Canon is actually listening? They listen to coins clinking. When that stops they might do something, but they are still not listening to you.
"Hey, Mr. Canon!"
"Yes, what is it?"
"Do you know that form is whining about shadow noise on the Interwebs?"
"OMG! Is he! Form! Whining? We must do something! Quickly, make a new sensor with Uber DR! I want to be able to push 4...NO 8! Make it 8 STOPS! And have clean, usable shadows! I dont want to just pull back from a completely dark room and amaze people with all the dynamic range as an image appears from the darkness. NO! I want to be able to shoot with the lens cap on and then push those shadows till I can see GOD! I want to be able to pull the highlights back just as much--No! Wait! I want to be able to pull out detail from completely blown channels! I want us to invent detail where there is none! WE MUST PLEASE FORM!!!"There are some very useful comments on this thread but the above summed it up!
Absolutely!
Thank you for that _SBS_!
_SBS_ wrote
Canon's shadow noise is inferior to the D800 and it should be improved? NO SHIT! Tell us all something we don't know!How duping people into wasting time and whining time and time again on these forums is going to help with shadow noise is beyond me. What do you think, Canon is actually listening? They listen to coins clinking. When that stops they might do something, but they are still not listening to you.
"Hey, Mr. Canon!"
"Yes, what is it?"
"Do you know that form is whining about shadow noise on the Interwebs?"
"OMG! Is he! Form! Whining? We must do something! Quickly, make a new sensor with Uber DR! I want to be able to push 4...NO 8! Make it 8 STOPS! And have clean, usable shadows! I dont want to just pull back from a completely dark room and amaze people with all the dynamic range as an image appears from the darkness. NO! I want to be able to shoot with the lens cap on and then push those shadows till I can see GOD! I want to be able to pull the highlights back just as much--No! Wait! I want to be able to pull out detail from completely blown channels! I want us to invent detail where there is none! WE MUST PLEASE FORM!!!"
Absolutely!
Thank you for that _SBS_!
Jun 05, 2013 at 02:46 PM
p.13 #11So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
Thanks Fred. You allowed me to finally "Like" my own words in a roundabout way.
Jun 05, 2013 at 07:31 PM
p.13 #12So, Uh...Canon shadow noise?
_SBS_ wrote:
You know, if you just started the thread like this it would have been dead and buried a long time ago. Instead you let many people waste time and effort trying to help.
Canon's shadow noise is inferior to the D800 and it should be improved? NO SHIT! Tell us all something we don't know!
How duping people into wasting time and whining time and time again on these forums is going to help with shadow noise is beyond me. What do you think, Canon is actually listening? They listen to coins clinking. When that stops they might do something,...Show more →
Muahahahahaaa
You know, if you just started the thread like this it would have been dead and buried a long time ago. Instead you let many people waste time and effort trying to help.
Canon's shadow noise is inferior to the D800 and it should be improved? NO SHIT! Tell us all something we don't know!
How duping people into wasting time and whining time and time again on these forums is going to help with shadow noise is beyond me. What do you think, Canon is actually listening? They listen to coins clinking. When that stops they might do something,...Show more →
Muahahahahaaa
Jun 05, 2013 at 07:33 PM