fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              16              18              31       32       end
  

Archive 2013 · New Leica Mini?

  
 
curious80
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.17 #1 · New Leica Mini?


millsart wrote:
Come on now, Leica doesn't "remove" features for a given price point, rather they simply provide a more back to basics approach for the true enthusiast who eschew such reliance upon modern features that "real" photographers don't need.
....


But in Leica world that means that M-E should have been priced higher than M9 given that it is more "pure"



Jun 06, 2013 at 02:30 PM
douglasf13
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.17 #2 · New Leica Mini?


millsart wrote:
Come on now, Leica doesn't "remove" features for a given price point, rather they simply provide a more back to basics approach for the true enthusiast who eschew such reliance upon modern features that "real" photographers don't need.

Heck, I bet Leica could make a camera with no LCD and some people would still defend it, saying how its more like film because you can't see your results until you get back home, and how its for real photographers because and not those who rely on histograms etc as a crutch yadda yadda.



FWIW, I would have actually considered buying an M without an LCD, if it meant that the camera was thinner and cheaper. M LCD pretty much remained off all of the time on my M9.



Jun 06, 2013 at 02:33 PM
goosemang
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.17 #3 · New Leica Mini?


douglasf13 wrote:
FWIW, I would have actually considered buying an M without an LCD, if it meant that the camera was thinner and cheaper. M LCD pretty much remained off all of the time on my M9.


you know, it's not a bad idea. remove the distraction. i've thought about taping over the lcd on my fuji because it's a constant distraction that doesn't exist with my M6



Jun 06, 2013 at 02:36 PM
DoubleNegative
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.17 #4 · New Leica Mini?


If you're already taping the red dot, you can tape the LCD too.

Leica is missing a golden opportunity here... Think "Das Keyboard" in an M - they could call it simply, "Das M."




Jun 06, 2013 at 02:40 PM
douglasf13
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.17 #5 · New Leica Mini?


goosemang wrote:
you know, it's not a bad idea. remove the distraction. i've thought about taping over the lcd on my fuji because it's a constant distraction that doesn't exist with my M6


I used a half screen that covered the LCD on my X100.



Jun 06, 2013 at 03:21 PM
millsart
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.17 #6 · New Leica Mini?


See, there you go, point proven lol

I'm not judging either way if a LCD-less camera has merits (would be kind of fun just shooting and focusing on nothing but composition through the VF instead of the habit of these days tweaking and reviewing every shot for 5 minutes) but, could anyone imagine the likes of a LCD-less Canon DSLR ? How about if Fuji took the LCD away from their X20 compact ?

Don't think anyone would have it, but the Leica ethos and historical way of working actually could be justifiable for some.

Using a DSLR with no LCD certainly would have the same historical background in that no film SLR had a means of review either, but just don't think the market would buy it much less pay a premium for it.

Only Leica could market such a product, charge a premium for it, and still have buyers wanting to pay extra for less, because in their minds its giving them more, ie; a better shooting experience.

That is pretty unique in the industry



Jun 06, 2013 at 03:32 PM
Mescalamba
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.17 #7 · New Leica Mini?


Given even manual focus can make you shoot better pics, it might sound crazy, but more primitive camera is, easier is to do better pics. At least for me.

Tho I prefer some degree of automation (AE at least). But given fact, that I still need to do a lot of PP, maybe it would be better if I used regular light meter and set exposure according to that..

I think there would be reasonable compromise in doing dSLR in sense, it would be mostly something working like R6.2, but it would have small background LCD which would show digital stuff, mainly RAW histogram, shots left, battery etc. When you have manual focus camera, that actually allows you to focus with really good precision, you dont need to check if image is ok, you mostly need to check if image was exposed right. And rest is just info. Could be possible to do quite easy and it wouldnt need much controls.



Jun 06, 2013 at 05:34 PM
millsart
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.17 #8 · New Leica Mini?


I've never really personally bought into the less makes you better type of arguments. Rather what I think is that less can lead to a higher percentage of "keepers" but only because your taking the time to carefully compose and think about each shot.

When I'd go out with my 4x5 Toyo, I'd know I've only got 10 film holders (and also the resulting dev and scanning cost) and I'd spend a lot of time thinking about each composition etc. I could come home with lets say 9 out of 10 pretty decent photos, though obviously maybe only 1 is really going to be that great of portfolio type shot, but all and all, everything should hopefully be decent.

Now if I'm walking with, say a DSLR, I may take 100 shots (if not more but 100 works for sake of example)

Would I expect 90% keeper rate ? Course not, that would be 90 great photos. Maybe I get 15 that I really like enough to process. So 15% keeper rater.

90% vs 15%

Does that mean I'm a better photog with my 4x5 ?

Not really because on the whole I actually got more good photos from the DSLR still, and my best DSLR shot I'd put up against my best Toyo shot on the basis of composition (maybe not IQ because those 4x5 scans are still something special)

All the modern tech is doing is letting me shoot more, and often easier, than using my primitive in comparison 4x5 (though it is Carbon Fiber lol) but I've still got to be the creative force driving it.

I may take more time with the LF gear, while I might just raise camera to my eye, knock of a bracketed burst and move on, hardly giving any thought to the scene, and people do that, but its not the fault of the camera. Its mine for being lazy.

I could just as well randomly set up the tripod, snap a few 4x5 sheets off and call it a day. I don't do that thought because of the expense, not because the camera is forcing me to be better.

Artificially imposing limitations are not the answer, rather self discipline and focus are. I can have all the bells and whistles possible and still take my time to carefully setup my tripod and produce a great photo, even if my camera can even serve as a coffee maker.

Its just like the age old zoom lens arguments. About how a fixed focal length "forces" people to "see" while a zoom makes you just stand in one spot and just use the zoom to lazily compose.

I just don' buy it because if your the type of photog that isn't going to bother using your feet a little with a zoom, then your simply not going to with a fixed focal length either. All your going to do is have a bunch of way loose or tight compositions because you can't be bothered to change your position.

The idea that putting a fixed 50 onto someones camera is going to somehow magically turn some lazy sod into an inspired and creative photographer full of great vision and talent just doesn't hold water, and more than suggesting that giving a talented shooter who works with primes a zoom lens is going to turn them into a two bit hack.



Jun 06, 2013 at 06:37 PM
douglasf13
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.17 #9 · New Leica Mini?


In the words of Orson Welles, "The enemy of art is the absence of limitations." I shoot a single prime, and it partially dictates what I do and don't shoot, which is partly the point, because it helps unify a vision. If it provides a way loose or tight composition, then I try not to take the picture in the first place. There are a billion pictures that could be taken by standing at any single point in the world, so there's no need to be prepared for every picture opportunity available.

Of course, limitations are a sliding scale, and everyone finds the point in which they are comfortable. I'm perfectly happy working within the limitations of a six string, 22 fret guitar, yet others love playing microtonal guitars, 4 string guitars, etc.

Either way, I'd only care about an M camera loosing its LCD if there are advantages like a thinner body and lower price, as I mentioned earlier. My RX1 has a million options that I don't use, and it doesn't bother me. I just ignore them. If Sony could cut hundreds of bucks out of the price of the camera by removing those options, then, sure, I'd be for it, but no big deal.



Jun 06, 2013 at 07:12 PM
Spyro P.
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.17 #10 · New Leica Mini?


I just dont wanna pay for stuff I dont use, simple as that.

By "pay" I dont mean strictly $$$ cost but also added weight/size, battery consumption and interference with other essential stuff that potentially have to become smaller/weaker/whatever to accomodate the stuff I dont use.

So yeah I'd gladly buy a camera without an LCD and I don't care who makes it.

I'd also kill for a dedicated ISO dial and lack of LCD makes heaps of room for it



Jun 06, 2013 at 07:26 PM
philip_pj
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.17 #11 · New Leica Mini?


I'm not at all sure Leica (or anyone else) can escape 'feature creep' these days. I don't like it either but many 'aids' are so valuable you are going to lose customers by omitting them. So Leica needed an EVF for the latest M, Live View also, so they are clearly of the opinion these are no longer low end features but necessities for modern photography in a high end camera. (even so, people moaned about not being able to move the focus magnification point for tripod work!)

There are few downsides indeed to owning a camera that 'has it all' *provided* it does the things you *need* very well. The a99 weighs almost 100 grams less than its predecessor the a900, yet adds much more usable functionality (which is what some of it is, rather than mere 'features') than you can easily list outside a spec sheet. 'Usable' is here defined as 'makes for better final images that are better focused and exposed, and are verifiably so in camera'.

Spyro, that functionality includes a brilliant silent control wheel that I have set to ISO, the settings of which are elegantly displayed across the bottom of the EVF display. It is placed so well you don't have to even reach for it. Yet my LCD might as well be part of the body, except when I need to use its swivel mode, when it often magically becomes the difference between getting or not getting the shot.

I am never going to use idiot modes or panorama mode or face recognition or 75% of what else is there, covered lavishly in hundreds of user manual pages, just as I won't use the car's GPS or fuel consumption readout or stereo when using the Bilstein suspension, Momo steering wheel and high spec tyres in a high speed corner.

But for every me or you, there are maybe 10-20 buyers who will want these doodads and gizmos or at least be partly swayed into buying on account of them being in the 'feature list'.

So I guess my point here is, just as you never use all of MS Word's functionality yet turn out good docs, you can 'shoot minimalist' in a device packed with amazing features. And it makes sense to provide them - to everyone in the chain from designer to marketing to retail salesperson to end user. It even makes sense to Leica.



Jun 06, 2013 at 09:16 PM
philip_pj
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.17 #12 · New Leica Mini?


I want to raise something a very experienced pro mentioned at getdpi in the context of using just a single FL lens - this was in the RX1 thread.

He was quite concerned at losing the ability to 'see' in other focal lengths if he was confined to just one focal length for a period of time. I have never come across this line of thought before but it bears thinking about.

Many great photographers restrict themselves to just one focal length (using maybe more than one lens at the same FL) for walkabout shooting etc.

You willl get very good at seeing good compositions this way, but is there a downside in lost opportunities at other FLs? It's the counter argument to the 'one lens improves artistic vision' idea.



Jun 06, 2013 at 09:33 PM
douglasf13
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.17 #13 · New Leica Mini?


Whether you shoot one lens, 3 lenses, or 20 lenses, there will always be lost opportunities. Of course, there's a big difference in needs from a pro sports shooter, wedding photographer, fine art photographer, etc.


Jun 06, 2013 at 09:46 PM
jojomon11
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.17 #14 · New Leica Mini?


+1 ^


Jun 06, 2013 at 10:03 PM
Julio Marcos
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.17 #15 · New Leica Mini?


Spyro P. wrote:
I just dont wanna pay for stuff I dont use, simple as that.


Putting Phillip's comments in a different way: by removing the stuff you don't want to use, you'll end up paying much more, because the potential market will be greatly reduced.

I'm all for ergonomic features, but in this day and age, foregoing an LCD or a panorama mode that's already been implemented across the board is not going to make much change to the final cost of the product. I'd rather leave the features in and have good menus, good usability, good knobs, etc.



Jun 06, 2013 at 10:32 PM
millsart
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.17 #16 · New Leica Mini?


douglasf13 wrote:
Whether you shoot one lens, 3 lenses, or 20 lenses, there will always be lost opportunities. Of course, there's a big difference in needs from a pro sports shooter, wedding photographer, fine art photographer, etc.



Generally the longer you've been doing it the less end of the world a missed opportunity seems as well. I remember my first few seasons covering NCAA and NFL football, basketball etc. Man, missing a touchdown catch because I couldn't switch bodies fast enough, missed focus, had the exposure wrong because the field was in half shadow/sun...man, that stuff really ruined my whole day, if not week.

After about 10 years though, its just not that big of deal. I strive to miss as little as I can, and try to learn from past mistakes, but really, there will be another touchdown pass, there will be another amazing sunrise, or another poignant street scene etc.

You can only plan and prepare for so much, and sure, you could haul 14-400mm worth of glass every time you as much as go for a walk, hoping not to miss a great shot, but at what cost ? and what benefit ?

Basically getting every shot just isn't that important, but making the most of the ones you do get is.

You just have to let go and accept your going to miss stuff.

Be happy walking the streets of an ancient city shooting urban landscapes and the people with a single focal length. IF some hawk happens to land on a building across the way and your not carrying a 400mm, well, your going to miss that shot, but life goes on.

Make a choice for what your going to carry, be that 1 lens, 2/3/4/5 etc and make the best of what you can shoot with them, not worry about "what if" and what you might miss.

Ironically I've found I always ended up with more images just walking around with a camera like my X100 with its 35mm equiv than when I was carrying the kitchen sink worth of gear in a big Lowepro bag weighting 30+lbs. Sure I had 16-400mm plus a 15mm fisheye, couple of bodies, speedlight, tilt/shift you name it but usually what I wanted was in the bag and by the time I took it off, switched lens and was ready to shoot, the moment was gone, traffic changed and the scenic I wanted now had a truck parked right across the street etc.

There is always going to be what if's, and usually lens range is the least of ones worries. I mean what if your shutter curtain blows, or you drop the camera, or your CF card goes corrupt ? What if you get food poisoning and miss a week of shooting because your laid up ? What if it rains every day and everything is closed.

Just so many possible things to worry about in life that missing some photos, even if for a job, just isn't really going to be that big of deal, unless you choose to make it a big deal.



Jun 06, 2013 at 10:50 PM
Spyro P.
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.17 #17 · New Leica Mini?


Julio Marcos wrote:
Putting Phillip's comments in a different way: by removing the stuff you don't want to use, you'll end up paying much more, because the potential market will be greatly reduced.

fair point
funny how the market works: less features -> more expensive...



Jun 06, 2013 at 11:32 PM
genji
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.17 #18 · New Leica Mini?


philip_pj wrote:
I want to raise something a very experienced pro mentioned at getdpi in the context of using just a single FL lens - this was in the RX1 thread.

He was quite concerned at losing the ability to 'see' in other focal lengths if he was confined to just one focal length for a period of time. I have never come across this line of thought before but it bears thinking about.

Many great photographers restrict themselves to just one focal length (using maybe more than one lens at the same FL) for walkabout shooting etc.

You willl get very good
...Show more

My experience has been that the best solution to this dilemma is to work with two bodies (much easier with NEX or Fuji X than with a Canon 5D series, but still possible with the latter). Depending on your shooting style you could have (in 35mm EFoV terms): 24mm + 35mm, 28mm + 50mm, 35mm + 75mm, etc.

Fewer lost opportunities when you can fluidly switch from on FL to another.

Although I'm reminded of a story I read about the great photojournalist, W. Eugene Smith, who used to carry five 35mm cameras, each (obviously) with a different FL: three draped around his neck and one on each shoulder. He was working in some fashion-related context and a model told him that he "couldn't be a very good photographer because Cartier-Bresson only needed one camera."



Jun 07, 2013 at 06:52 AM
Gary Clennan
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.17 #19 · New Leica Mini?


Sample pics from the new camera....

http://www.slack.co.uk/slack/Paula.html



Jun 07, 2013 at 08:40 AM
rsrsrs
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.17 #20 · New Leica Mini?


Digital zoom ratio: 1
Focal length, 35 mm equivalent: 0

r



Jun 07, 2013 at 09:44 AM
1       2       3              16              18              31       32       end




FM Forums | Leica & Alternative Gear | Join Upload & Sell

1       2       3              16              18              31       32       end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account