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Rules & Guidelines | Uninsured Payment Alert!

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NEVER use Paypal Gift, Venmo, Zelle, Apple Pay, Google Pay or any other uninsured payment!

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Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

Fred Miranda
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

Do not use Paypal Family & Friends, Venmo, Zelle or any other uninsured payment method.

Some of you may want to avoid paying Paypal taxes or fees involved in online transactions but these fees are put in place by the financial institutions for a reason. Think of these fees as insurance if things go wrong.

Fredmiranda.com does not guarantee transactions. We simple allow members to post here. You buy and sell at your own risk and it is your responsibility to protect yourself during any transactions initiated through our boards.

Do not use uninsured payment methods. Ultimately, the payment method a decision between the two parties conducting the transaction.

Links to the board's Rules and Guidelines and Uninsured Payment Alert are always accessible at the top fo the Buy and Sell boards.

My advice is to take the time to always check references first.
Only use insured credit card or regular Paypal.

Members should NEVER use: bank transfer, money order, money owed payment, Paypal Gift (Family and Friends) or any other uninsured payment method like Venmo, Zelle, etc.

Be aware of transactions initiated from WTB (Want to buy) threads. especially when the other party conducts all communications through pm only. It's important to check for feedback and never use uninsured payment methods.

We try our best to keep the site as safe as possible, but it is up to you to protect yourself when buying gear online.
Fred

Jan 23, 2013 at 01:16 AM

powdork
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

Whoa?! No gifts to the Pope seems kind of extreme, but ok.
Of course, we'll let you write it again.

Jan 23, 2013 at 02:34 AM

pdmphoto
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

In general, I understand where you are coming from.

Some of us have been around here for a while and know other members likewise. I would rather deal with one of them, Paypal gift, check, or money order; than regular Paypal with a new member. Why pay the extra 3%?

Regular Paypal does little to protect the seller. More than a few sellers have been scammed by false claims. Seems more important to establish some trust with whoever you might be dealing with, before finalizing the deal, whether buying or selling.

Paypal, and the Ebay connection, can be frustrating (or even downright unreasonable) to work with. That is one reason some of us are here. I could go into a personal rant, or two, about Paypal/Ebay but will refrain.

Jan 23, 2013 at 04:01 AM

Chet Hall
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

Fred I believe this is very sound advice. I know from firsthand experience how important it is being protected from a scam. I was lucky ...PayPal saved me $1500.00 by getting my money back when I did not protect myself using the 3%. NEVER again! I could have lost it and never recovered the money because I was trying to save $45.00. Deals can be made with the buyer and seller splitting the costs. I understand what pdmphoto is stating with trusted members, but in general it's a must to protect yourself when using PayPal or any other method of payment.

I'm sorry to say I don't think this will be the last time this topic is brought up. Always a good idea to keep it in the light.

Jan 23, 2013 at 04:53 AM

GRM
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

pdmphoto wrote:
Some of us have been around here for a while and know other members likewise. I would rather deal with one of them, Paypal gift, check, or money order; than regular Paypal with a new member. Why pay the extra 3%?

No established member will side with you if you use Paypal gift and the package is lost in the mail.
Second of all, Paypal is a business, they are in for the money. I don't understand why people think they should use paypal services for free.

Jan 23, 2013 at 05:47 AM

Mickey
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

ReneMurea wrote:
No established member will side with you if you use Paypal gift and the package is lost in the mail.
Second of all, Paypal is a business, they are in for the money. I don't understand why people think they should use paypal services for free.

+1. The real issue here isn't just protection it's about doing the right thing. It's unethical to use Paypal gift to receive payment for an item sold. It's little more than stealing. You agreed to the terms when you signed up with Paypal. Just because they are a big company doesn't mean we can cheat them out of what is rightfully theirs. I think it's really generous of them to allow genuine "gift" payments for no fee.

Jan 23, 2013 at 06:11 AM

binary visions
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

I don't agree that it's a moral issue with Paypal.

You pay the 3% so that Paypal protects you. It's not an obligation, it's a choice. Paypal charges a fee in order to ensure that they can pay for the added expense of resolving disputes. I'm not obligated to pay for a collision policy on my car insurance, it's a choice I make, and I pay for that choice.

I do agree that using Paypal "gift" is ridiculous for transactions with strangers on the internet, though. I mean, even with a solid history - have you ever looked through eBay (or even Fred Miranda) feedbacks? It'll be "great job" "fantsatic" "a+ seller" and then suddenly, "item wasn't shipped, I had to file a chargeback."

Who knows what the real story is there? But the reality is that crap happens sometimes, and you pay the 3% so that, when things happen, you aren't out all of your money. I think that's worth it.

Jan 23, 2013 at 06:45 AM

soupcxan
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

Why can't PayPal offer a lower fee on high value items? That would lead to less skirting the fee through gift. If you a selling a $2k lens, is $60 a reasonable fee for an electronic transaction? I don't think so. Consider how much manual work there is to process a paper check for $2k, and yet those are totally free. There should be a sliding scale so that as the value of the payment increases, the % fee declines.

Why can't a competitor come into the market and take this monopoly away?

Jan 23, 2013 at 06:48 AM

Zelaya
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

This is just my humble opinion, I understand checking members feedback is a plus for buying photography equipment here but paying someone as a " Gift" method is a big risk. Why not sell an item and include the paypal fee.

Jan 23, 2013 at 07:19 AM

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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

as a looong time paypal user I have had a few deals go bad, some not very large amounts of money but others pretty big and the only one I ever got back anything was $40 on a $950 R/C helicopter I sold to a member of a forum with steller fedback so even feeback can be faked or people just go bad. The fact is paypal buyer/seller assurance is a joke, the ONLY way you get money back is if there is money in thier account or paypal buyers credit card, thats it. Paypal starts charging the sender 3% anyway after you send a few "gifts" so it all works out the same. There are no real "gaurantees" with anything, just blind trust in your fellow member.

Jan 23, 2013 at 07:55 AM

therealhershey
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

papamac wrote:
as a looong time paypal user I have had a few deals go bad, some not very large amounts of money but others pretty big and the only one I ever got back anything was $40 on a $950 R/C helicopter I sold to a member of a forum with steller fedback so even feeback can be faked or people just go bad. The fact is paypal buyer/seller assurance is a joke, the ONLY way you get money back is if there is money in thier account or paypal buyers credit card, thats it. Paypal starts charging the sender 3%...Show more →

While I haven't personally dealt with PayPal over a transaction/missing good, a couple of friends have had experiences very similar to your's with stuff they purchased on Ebay or through these 1 sale a day types sites... PayPal is a horrible company. I deal with them as little as possible.

Jan 23, 2013 at 08:14 AM

NikonGuyIsHere
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

ReneMurea wrote:
No established member will side with you if you use Paypal gift and the package is lost in the mail.
Second of all, Paypal is a business, they are in for the money. I don't understand why people think they should use paypal services for free.

If the package is lost in the mail, the seller is still responsible for the package regardless of what method of payment was used. Buyer can not be held reliable in this instance. Seller needs to refund and handle with delivery service.

Buyer only gets involved once they receive the package, not before.

Jan 23, 2013 at 08:28 AM

convergent
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

Fred, Thank you so much for this. I have been very frustrated with the whole Paypal "gift" usage by many. When I buy something, I am not giving a "gift" to the seller. In our world of so many feeling entitled to things for free, it seems that sellers don't feel that they should absorb the "cost of sales" and incorporate it into their price. Merchants do this. If you are selling something, you are a pseudo merchant. Offering Paypal increases the number of people that will want to buy from you (vs. check, money order, etc.), and greatly increases convenience to the seller. The seller should recognize the value of this (or not), and offer Paypal (or not).

Jan 23, 2013 at 09:23 AM

Mickey
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

"You pay the 3% so that Paypal protects you. It's not an obligation, it's a choice. Paypal charges a fee in order to ensure that they can pay for the added expense of resolving disputes. I'm not obligated to pay for a collision policy on my car insurance, it's a choice I make, and I pay for that choice."

How could it possibly be a choice?? The fee charged is to make a profit not for any protection and you agreed with it when you signed up. It is clearly stated that there is a fee charged the seller on each transaction. How do you think Paypal makes money?
In the car insurance example how about your choice to not pay for liability? Why not say that is a choice as well?

FROM PAYPAL:

"Small Fee - PayPal fees mainly apply to sellers, who pay a 2.9% transaction fee on the total sale amount plus a $0.30 fee per transaction. There are some exceptions, listed below. If you have a business, see PayPal Merchant Fees for discounted rates and other pricing info."You pay the 3% so that Paypal protects you. It's not an obligation, it's a choice. Paypal charges a fee in order to ensure that they can pay for the added expense of resolving disputes. I'm not obligated to pay for a collision policy on my car insurance, it's a choice I make, and I pay for that choice.

Jan 23, 2013 at 09:26 AM

NsBenitez
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

It's not just about the lack of protection, it's about doing what's right.

If I'm using a paying service for my convenience I can't expect it to be free of charge, it's as simple as that.

Jan 23, 2013 at 09:28 AM

ggOk
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

NikonGuyIsHere wrote:
If the package is lost in the mail, the seller is still responsible for the package regardless of what method of payment was used. Buyer can not be held reliable in this instance. Seller needs to refund and handle with delivery service.

Buyer only gets involved once they receive the package, not before.

+1, I believe it's seller's resposibility to have package insured and claim if lost.

for Paypal Gift options... I'll make the call. if I'm purchasing item that costs more than my bi-week pay check, I'll pay the 3%. For everything else, it's reference first.

/r
Andy

Jan 23, 2013 at 09:32 AM

TooManyShots
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

NsBenitez wrote:
It's not just about the lack of protection, it's about doing what's right.

If I'm using a paying service for my convenience I can't expect it to be free of charge, it's as simple as that.

How about a base fee and not based on the %? I mean, does it take paypal more work to sent $1000 to another person versus $100? No.

Jan 23, 2013 at 10:15 AM

unangelino
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

i wish paypal could crack down on the abuse of their gift service. i like to use it once or twice a year to send a gift; imagine that.

it never fails to amaze me when otherwise savy fmers fail to simply add 3% (or more) to the asking price rather than playing the silly game of paypal gift.

beyond that, using pp gift for non-gifts cheats pp.

yes, a big company like ebay/pp can be cheated when their services are abused.

Jan 23, 2013 at 10:29 AM

TooManyShots
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

How about some examples in which PayPal was able to help the buyers to recover the money when the deal has gone wrong...because the buyers were using the regular paypal? I am not talking about Ebay sales.

Jan 23, 2013 at 10:32 AM

GRM
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Uninsured Payment Alert! - Please read

NikonGuyIsHere wrote:
If the package is lost in the mail, the seller is still responsible for the package regardless of what method of payment was used. Buyer can not be held reliable in this instance. Seller needs to refund and handle with delivery service.

And if the seller doesn't "feel" he's responsible for the lost package, you're out of money. Paypal cant do a thing and why would they do anything for free.

Jan 23, 2013 at 10:46 AM

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