Exdsc wrote:
This thread has raised awareness of Daido Moriyama and I'm very happy for that.
Except that you have put a "bad taste" in people's mouth on his behalf in the process ... when you had a golden opportunity to use this platform for educating, explaining and enlightening a well respected global audience of other photographers ... and you chose to "piss it away" (please excuse the vernacular) for your own selfish agenda ... even if otherwise feigned.
Whether you come to realize this in the next two seconds or the next twenty years ... I just hope that you do (for your benefit) at some time come to realize what you really did and didn't accomplish in the process.
Again, welcome to FM ... but as I said before, we aren't like many other internet forums that you might be accustomed to. I hope you come to learn that of us as well, hopefully sooner rather than later.
RustyBug wrote:
Except that you have put a "bad taste" in people's mouth on his behalf in the process ... when you had a golden opportunity to use this platform for educating, explaining and enlightening a well respected global audience of other photographers ... and you chose to "piss it away" (please excuse the vernacular) for your own selfish agenda ... even if otherwise feigned.
People who get obsessed about threads in internet forums need help.
I see, so because OP has acted inappropriately it's OK to all of a sudden judge his body of work?
He may have been spouting bull****, but now several people are doing it right back to him except they are spouting forum approved bull**** so it's ok. "A picture should tell a story" and "These are just random pictures" and "Intent cannot be separated from the result"... like seriously can we quit acting like everyone agrees with those criteria and wants to be judged by them?
You all went to his flickr stream and started pulling images. That is an immature and deeply personal attack on him. CarstenW essentially called Exdsc a shitty imitation of Daido.
Do two wrongs make a right over here? People calling others immature as they demonstrate their own pettiness...
Furthermore, I continue to be amazed at how little humility there is on this forum. Everyone seems to think that because they are like 57 and shoot the same crap over and over again for 20 years that it makes them good photographers. Pro tip: the few actually talented people who post on FM haven't posted in this thread.
This is why forums are depressing. You have trolls and then you have group think and sitting on top of all of the good information is a constant battle between the two that you have to wade through just to look at a few pictures.
And for all his faults and terrible behavior in this thread, at least Exdsc's pictures have been posted in this thread.
I was sincere and genuine that I liked his images that I posted of his ... no punches pulled, no sarcasm, no bull ... just trying to give him a little credence. If you want to chide me for "judging" his work, it should be noted that I only chose to show that which I judged with favor and promise, thus aspiring to be uplifting of a fellow FM'er, rather than demeaning as you are suggesting was my intent.
I was also sincere and genuine in my advice that he has missed an opportunity. I have asked him repeatedly to help me better understand Daido ... to which he has not even offered an attempt to do so. That is truly a missed opportunity. By expressing my perspective of such, I hope that it resonates with him such that he might take better advantage of future opportunities with this audience. Maybe it will, maybe it will fall on deaf ears ... only time will tell.
Apologies to Exdsc and my other fellow FM'ers if I poorly communicated such things.
redisburning wrote:
I see, so because OP has acted inappropriately it's OK to all of a sudden judge his body of work?
The only people who offered feedback on Exdsc's work are CarstenW and RustyBug. Of these, Carsten observed that Exdsc's work appears to attempt to imitate Moriyama's work, and offered the theory that that is why Exdsc is taking criticism of Moriyama's work so personally. This theory seems worth exploration, considering Exdsc's behaviour in this thread.
He may have been spouting bull****, but now several people are doing it right back to him except they are spouting forum approved bull**** so it's ok. "A picture should tell a story" and "These are just random pictures" and "Intent cannot be separated from the result"... like seriously can we quit acting like everyone agrees with those criteria and wants to be judged by them?
It seems to me that the vast majority of people participating in this thread simply do not like Moriyama's (current, colour) work. I don't think everyone necessarily has to agree on why they don't like it. It is all just opinion anyway. Just because one person thinks "a picture should tell a story" does not mean that others agree.
You all went to his flickr stream and started pulling images. That is an immature and deeply personal attack on him.
One person pulled his images and posted them, in a complementary fashion.
CarstenW essentially called Exdsc a shitty imitation of Daido.
Carsten, like I, has a limited tolerance for the insulting behaviour dished up by Exdsc in this thread. Since you've highlighted this, I will take the opportunity to say that I slightly disagree with Carsten's evaluation. I think Exdsc is imitating Moriyama, but his photos (the ones in this thread) are better than Moriyama's!
Furthermore, Fred has already had to step in and delete the worst of Exdsc's posts (I won't reiterate, but suffice it to say that Exdsc sunk very, very low), so Carsten and I are not the only ones who have a low tolerance for that sort of crap.
Do two wrongs make a right over here? People calling others immature as they demonstrate their own pettiness...
The "don't dish it out if you can't take it" rule applies everywhere in life, including Internet forums. FM is no exception.
Furthermore, I continue to be amazed at how little humility there is on this forum. Everyone seems to think that because they are like 57 and shoot the same crap over and over again for 20 years that it makes them good photographers. Pro tip: the few actually talented people who post on FM haven't posted in this thread.
Right. So now you are the ultimate authority on who the "real photographers" are here at FM. You are starting to sound like Exdsc. Not a direction I would choose to go, but to each his/her own.
This is why forums are depressing. You have trolls and then you have group think and sitting on top of all of the good information is a constant battle between the two that you have to wade through just to look at a few pictures.
Depressing? Get a grip!
And for all his faults and terrible behavior in this thread, at least Exdsc's pictures have been posted in this thread.
Right. More of his photos have been posted than Moriyama's colour P&S JPEGS!
RustyBug wrote:
... I have asked him repeatedly to help me better understand Daido ... to which he has not even offered an attempt to do so. That is truly a missed opportunity...
+1
Exposure to his work without understanding it is meaningless at best. It does nothing for me; I am reminded of the Emperor's clothes.
Cogitech why would you put quotes around words that never actually appeared in my post?
Everyone who is a photographer is a real photographer; unless they are animated string puppets or robots of course. That doesnt mean they are all talented.
I just went ahead and said what I think; which is that a ton of people are full of themselves around here despite the photographic output being of a level clearly below what you would find in a first year university class. I like the mostly cordial gear discussions and there are a handful of talented people around, but that represents a tiny fraction of the FM population. FWIW I do not consider myself to be part of that subset.
But I do seem to have a better understanding of the breadth of what's out there photography wise than many here. How many people had never seen a Daido Moriyama picture or had any idea of who he is? The guy is so entry level that ignorance of his existence suggests a pretty substantial isolation, which fits in with people's demonstrated pretentiousness regarding their own photographs.
cogitech wrote:
The only people who offered feedback on Exdsc's work are CarstenW and RustyBug. Of these, Carsten observed that Exdsc's work appears to attempt to imitate Moriyama's work, and offered the theory that that is why Exdsc is taking criticism of Moriyama's work so personally. This theory seems worth exploration, considering Exdsc's behaviour in this thread.
It seems to me that the vast majority of people participating in this thread simply do not like Moriyama's (current, colour) work. I don't think everyone necessarily has to agree on why they don't like it. It is all just opinion anyway. Just because one person thinks "a picture should tell a story" does not mean that others agree.
One person pulled his images and posted them, in a complementary fashion.
Carsten, like I, has a limited tolerance for the insulting behaviour dished up by Exdsc in this thread. Since you've highlighted this, I will take the opportunity to say that I slightly disagree with Carsten's evaluation. I think Exdsc is imitating Moriyama, but his photos (the ones in this thread) are better than Moriyama's!
Furthermore, Fred has already had to step in and delete the worst of Exdsc's posts (I won't reiterate, but suffice it to say that Exdsc sunk very, very low), so Carsten and I are not the only ones who have a low tolerance for that sort of crap.
The "don't dish it out if you can't take it" rule applies everywhere in life, including Internet forums. FM is no exception.
Right. So now you are the ultimate authority on who the "real photographers" are here at FM. You are starting to sound like Exdsc. Not a direction I would choose to go, but to each his/her own.
Depressing? Get a grip!
Right. More of his photos have been posted than Moriyama's colour P&S JPEGS!
redisburning wrote:
I see, so because OP has acted inappropriately it's OK to all of a sudden judge his body of work?
You are doing some very selective reading here. He called me out to show my work. After that, of course it is okay to look at his work. And as for the photo he posted, that is fair game since it was posted in this thread.
redisburning wrote:
Cogitech why would you put quotes around words that never actually appeared in my post?
I drew a parallel between "actually talented photographers" and "real photographers". I believe you and Exdsc are referring to the same thing. Neither of you have the right to make this distinction any more than any of us do. There are dozens of people in the Alt section alone that I would consider to be many times more "talented" or "real" than Moriyama. If I spent any time in the photo-related forums here I suspect I would find many more.
Everyone who is a photographer is a real photographer; unless they are animated string puppets or robots of course. That doesnt mean they are all talented.
Yes, it does. Talent does not have an on/off switch. There are varying degrees. It is all "grey area". Some are more talented than others, and some have almost none... Also, it can be gained or lost. Moriyama has lost his, apparently.
I just went ahead and said what I think; which is that a ton of people are full of themselves around here despite the photographic output being of a level clearly below what you would find in a first year university class.
I have seen such work. Pretentious, abstract, B&W, technically deficient shots that get the approval of the artsy-fartsy "professor", because that's what he learned, after all.
I like the mostly cordial gear discussions and there are a handful of talented people around, but that represents a tiny fraction of the FM population. FWIW I do not consider myself to be part of that subset.
I like looking at all the photos, from everyone. I like some shots better than others, and I like some people's style, PP, etc. better than others. End of.
But I do seem to have a better understanding of the breadth of what's out there photography wise than many here. How many people had never seen a Daido Moriyama picture or had any idea of who he is? The guy is so entry level that ignorance of his existence suggests a pretty substantial isolation, which fits in with people's demonstrated pretentiousness regarding their own photographs.
I disagree. I don't think people's pretentiousness about their own works gets in the way. I think their work gets in their way. Lots of people here simply love to shoot. Others have side businesses or even full-time businesses which keep them very busy. Either way, they are absorbed in their work. Most of them would benefit very little from staring at Moriyama's photos.
Some people are happy reading history books, taking courses, and looking at old photographs by "masters". Others might only do this seldom. Others, not at all. I don't think any conclusion as to the level of the person's pretentiousness can be drawn from this. However, in my experience the ones who have the greatest tendency toward pretentiousness are the ones who do more study/reading than shooting.
There will be people who think the images are trite, etc.
It's kind of like someone who took Algebra I not seeing the beauty in complicated math riddles. While you may know something about equations, it's probably over your head. The only criticism is that instead of trying to delve more into it, people just dismiss it after three minutes of looking.
99.5% of the images posted in Forums and especially this one would make a great calendar at a greeting card store. Extremely few seem any better than that.
Exdsc wrote:
This video shows Diado Moriyama shooting with a P&S, which is a Nikon S9100 that only shoots jpg.
It makes one feel really silly to think how much obsession there is for gear and yet here is one of the best happily shooting with a jpg-only zoom P&S.
Thanks for sharing the video. He said he always uses P&S because "it does not make people feel uncomfortable". I like that. He did it for quite some time, so he knows that this is the best tool for his type of photography. I have seen HCB shooting with a compact camera (Minilux) for an assignment about 10 years ago.
But it does not make me feel silly at all. Photography has enough room for everyone.
FlyPenFly wrote:
Name any major known photographer.
There will be people who think the images are trite, etc.
It's kind of like someone who took Algebra I not seeing the beauty in complicated math riddles. While you may know something about equations, it's probably over your head. The only criticism is that instead of trying to delve more into it, people just dismiss it after three minutes of looking.
99.5% of the images posted in Forums and especially this one would make a great calendar at a greeting card store. Extremely few seem any better than that.
And 100% of Moriyama's colour JPEGs would make terrible calendars.
carstenw wrote:
My guess is that this thread will be locked any moment now. It is sad how often things go to hell in a hand basket when a newbie with an attitude arrives here.
Got to hand it to said newbie though, his one controversial thread managed to produce about as many post as his entire posting history.
Plus now there is another overrated photographer whom I previously never heard of and found I don't like for me to soon forget about that I can name drop when hanging out with some artsy types lol
You know what's a fun game at gallery openings? I'll name drop random Japanese and Nordic names combined together and ask people if they've ever heard of him and if they think its a bit derivative of another made up name.
