briantho wrote:
However... when it's obvious that the "art" is only appreciated by people who are "initiated" and it's claimed that ordinary people are incapable of understanding the genius mastermind behind it, or when such "art" starts to be valued at millions of dollars, it's kind of begging to be made fun of. Especially as the initiated few are so protective of the idea that the crap they consider art is in fact the work of a genius, that they go to great lengths to defend it for the "artist", who BTW is laughing all the way to the bank.
Not so dissimilar from how most of us (myself including) can chatter excitedly about lenses which are only appreciated by people who are "initiated" and whom the vast majority of people will not be able to perceive the distinction of, and which are valued at thousands, or tens of thousands of dollars.
cputeq wrote:
"Great" photographers are nothing more than photographers with marketing sense.
I can't really agree with that at all. The two are completely orthogonal. Some great photographers die poor. Some poor photographers get rich. If you substitute the term "commercially successful", then it is much more true.
alwang wrote:
Not so dissimilar from how most of us (myself including) can chatter excitedly about lenses which are only appreciated by people who are "initiated" and whom the vast majority of people will not be able to perceive the distinction of, and which are valued at thousands, or tens of thousands of dollars.
Well, we're just nerds who compare slight performance differences between various tools for photography, and although these are insignificant for the majority of people, it's about differences which can be measured, and not based on a subjective opinion. But indeed, the ebay sellers are similarly laughing all the way to the bank.
Now if someone on this forum started to shoot photos with a really crappy lens, and everyone was forced to say how great these photos turn out (because the most distinguished members of the forum says so, so it "must" be so), then we'd have an art situation, and the crappy lens would cost tens of thousands of dollars, and it would be the dream lens everyone wants.
briantho wrote:
Well, we're just nerds who compare slight performance differences between various tools for photography, and although these are insignificant for the majority of people, it's about differences which can be measured, and not based on a subjective opinion.
Sometimes. Just like sometimes, there are technical criteria by which we can say a piece of art is objectively better. However, a lot of the time we're describing lenses with terms like "rendering", and "bokeh", and "color response", which aren't measurable, IMO.
I'd go a step further, and say the only reason to have enthusiast forums such as this one is because we're discussing a subject which is, at least partially, inherently subjective. If everyone could objectively agree on which lens was best or which camera was best, you'd have a pretty short conversation. That's why there are no online discussion forums about bacon.
carstenw wrote:
I'd be interested in an elaboration of this. I think this is wrong, but will let you defend yourself first
I didn't mean for that to be a controversial statement. I meant that there are criteria we might look at for a painting or sculpture (or photograph) to say that it required a higher degree of technical craft: for example, the amount of detail, use of more difficult materials, more realistic depiction of a scene, etc. However, none of these are sufficient to say that one work of art overall is objectively better than another.
@carstenw, show an example of your work before spamming a thread with your incoherent fluffy soundbites. Its only fair to show some photos before talking about photos.
Lets see what have you achieved, spending 8 years of your life in a photography forum.
Okay, then we agree. As long as the conclusion isn't "better" You can do a lot with very little. Look at some of Picasso's drawings, but they are still brilliant!
Exdsc wrote:
@carstenw, show an example of your work before spamming a thread with your incoherent fluffy soundbites. Its only fair to show some photos before talking about photos.
Lets see what have you achieved, spending 8 years of your life in a photography forum.
There are also loads of photos in the ZE/ZF/ZM thread, the Zeiss Lens thread and the Leica R thread. And there is more on getdpi.com, where I go by the same name.
And you?
You owe us a book recommendation, btw. Let us know which art history books you have read and enjoyed.
I know that "sea of flow" thing you are referring to. It can come in the form of a flock of birds, a river, the ocean, mass transit, a fog bank, etc. It is kinda like standing on a ridge and letting the wind pass by you, feeling its embrace and considering it's motion that seems to happen effortlessly and in its own harmony unto itself ... as if it is totally unaware and unaffected by your presence, even though it moves about you.
But, I don't think that "mindless" is what generates ones ability to see or connect to that. Rather, (imo) one must be "mindful", yet from a different perspective, one that is rather minimal of being self minded. There is a serenity that accompanies smooth flow ... like watching a whale swim ... and excitement that comes from rapid movement of a breach or tail slap ... or the mesmerizing view of watching the water cascade off the tail during a slow submersion. Seeing things for how they move or interact is different than seeing them for the "thing" that they are.
I can certainly appreciate that ... and while I haven't spent a lifetime in Japan, I've been in the Orient enough to have witnessed what you've presented in the culture as well. I get that, and can appreciate it just fine. But, like you ... I'm not seeing any of that presented in the discussed works presented by the OP.
S Dilworth wrote:
Exdsc, you’re not making a good case for yourself or Daido, not that the latter needs your endorsement. Be nice.
+1 ... but additionally:
Your failure to explain Daido to those who have asked for you to explain for those of us who currently "don't get it" so that we might be better for it (and advance understanding / appreciation for) ... it doesn't bode well either.
Telling people that they "don't get it" and they need to be "put in their place" ... rather lacking in maturation. If you are truly the advocate follower of Daido that you espouse to be ... then you should understand it well enough to be able to explain it ... and willing to put forth the effort to do so.
So far, you've mostly been trying to be divisive or defensive rather than enlightening ... we typically go to great lengths to help our fellow FM'ers ... understand ... our viewpoints. While we certainly aren't successful on all accounts, we put forth the effort to do so. I've yet to feel as though you are trying to advance our understanding ... even though we have asked for your assistance in doing so.
There are a few others, but I've probably worn out the others already. My point is that you are too busy making excuses and being defensive and argumentative ... you really should be striving to advance your own vision & voice ... rather than telling people how you need to "put them in their place" because they "don't get it".
Helping others to understand ... it helps you grow as well.
Most of us around here have a good feel for how you've presented yourself initially. The fact that your fellow FM'ers are engaging you in the good faith that they are ... well that is a blessing that you have yet to appreciate. Even though you may be perceiving things such as you do, they are actually trying to help you more than you're able to realize.
Don't get too full of yourself ... they're a start and they are images that are worth feeling good about. But in the context of this thread ... you haven't put your voice to them. They are just "pretty pics" ... with potential.
I saw the B&W ... I didn't show them for a reason.
Too bad you felt the need to ... it not only speaks to your (current) workmanship, but also your (current) character.
But, there's hope ... as long as it isn't wasted on arrogance, pride & immaturity.
