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Archive 2012 · How noisy is your 7D?

  
 
Charles Gallo
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p.19 #1 · How noisy is your 7D?


Ian.Dobinson wrote:
So you'll be investing in a 600mm lens as well to go with it?


Possibly. almost all the photos I see here that people say are "good" I think are noisy as hell. Sorry. Then again, I used to think that Plus-X and Ektachome were noisy too (K25 and Tech pan were my friends). The more I look at digital backgrounds, the more noise I see - for all sensors

I really think that 1)I don't know how to post process, and 2)I really don't want to learn. I was happy in the darkroom. Masking layers etc etc - to ME, for what I want to do - nope. The more I think about it, it might be time to break out the film bodies. I don't hammer away with the high speed photos - I shoot mostly single shot. The AF on the 7D often misses what I'm looking at, to the point I usually prefer still subjects, so I can move the focus point and use spot focus and spot exposure (sorry, area and larger on both just doesn't seem to do it - lucky if you get somewhat close focus). Any time I shoot above ISO 400, even a blank wall - all I see is NOISE - to me it looks worse than shooting tri-x pushed. Yeah, you can get away with it on a 'busy' subject .
IMHO - Until it gets to the point where we don't have to do ANY noise reduction/sharpening etc on digital, it just isn't really there. Did you have to sharpen your photos with K25? Tech-Pan? Did you need to do noise reduction?



Sep 06, 2012 at 12:24 PM
PetKal
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p.19 #2 · How noisy is your 7D?


Last summer I did a whole series of GBH shots with 7D + 800L, and I was pleased with the results, although I had to apply NR on some of those files even at ISO 200, because of large crops. However, that was a small price to pay. Again, the targets were relatively large/close, barely moving and easy to focus on, and in very good light.
Under those conditions I was able to utilise the 7D's prodigeous sensor pixel density very well.

Here is one example from that GBH series, probably cropped close to 50%.

Edited on Sep 06, 2012 at 09:26 PM · View previous versions



Sep 06, 2012 at 12:47 PM
Jeff Nolten
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p.19 #3 · How noisy is your 7D?


Charles Gallo wrote:
... almost all the photos I see here that people say are "good" I think are noisy as hell. Sorry. Then again, I used to think that Plus-X and Ektachome were noisy too (K25 and Tech pan were my friends). The more I look at digital backgrounds, the more noise I see - for all sensors

I really think that 1)I don't know how to post process, and 2)I really don't want to learn. ... Did you have to sharpen your photos with K25? Tech-Pan? Did you need to do noise reduction?


Sounds like you are one of those folks who needs to get a full frame and a good tripod and stick to ISO 100. No harm in that. My 5Ds give me cleaner imagery than I ever could get from Kodachrome and my Nikon slide scanner. Of course I can also produce very noisy 5D images if I try My 7D, 100-400, and post processing takes me where I could never go with film and I'm willing to put the extra effort into obtaining that. I agree the 7D takes extra care if you are pushing it.

Edit: I'll add that PetKal's heron and the many other images from Romy and Uz2 and others are works of art and very difficult to find fault with, visible noise or not.

Edited on Sep 06, 2012 at 01:34 PM · View previous versions



Sep 06, 2012 at 01:19 PM
Jeff
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p.19 #4 · How noisy is your 7D?


I've been fairly silent on details, knowing that many people are happy with the 7D's file quality, and that I don't have the longer-focal length needs that they do; if I did, there is no question that the 7D would be the camera to have, absent several $10k lenses that I'll never own. That being said, I just wanted to demonstrate my personal opinion, where it is coming from, and the reasons that non-focal length limited shooters may have become disillusioned with the sensor characteristics of the 7D. What is presented below is in no way scientific (nor is it intended to be), I simply selected (from several different cameras) a representative 100 ISO image that contained some blue sky exposed relatively similarly, and treated the exact same in LR4.1: No adjustments to CR2 files other than sharpening:

AMOUNT: 50
RADIUS: 0.5
DETAIL: 50
MASKING: 24

Yes, I've learned that 'detail' settings at <20 may be optimal for the 7D, but that's irrelevant since all files were treated equally. I know that I can make each file look the similarly by pushing different controls (NR and masking, specifically), the point was to see what each sensor gives with the same settings, regardless of what those settings were. To be clear, no NR was used on these examples.

So, what is presented below I think is the most effective way of illustrating the sensor characteristics of various cameras in relation to noise, in this case, in out-of-focus areas like sky. The innate characteristics of each sensor do, however, seem to propagate beyond just the blue channel in my experience, it was simply easiest to 'normalize' the content based upon the sky. In each screen grab, you can see the portion of the image that the 100% crop is viewed from, and was captured with the Option key depressed while using the Masking slider to more easily illustrate the noise characteristics. I didn't 'pick and choose' specific images to illustrate my point, other than to choose them based on being similar content and exposure; there were dozens that I looked at that were representative (check it out for yourself with different sensors you've used).

A quick tangent: despite many people who say that pixel-peeping at 100% is a useless endeavor, I will always disagree. For web presentation and small to medium prints, agreed: useless endeavor. Viewing at 50% indeed gives a more representative view of how a typical print will turn out, but as you print larger, the defects you see in a print are what you start to see when viewing a file at 100%. There I said it, I pixel peep, but only because it is very relevant to printing large, high-resolution prints that may (or may not) be viewed up close. Your mileage obviously varies.

Take from this what you will; shoot it down, burn it up, fire it back, whatever. These images precisely illustrate to me why the 7D didn't work for someone like myself: one who doesn't tend to frequently shoot long, nor wish to spend hours learning PP tricks to alleviate the unique sensor characteristics of the 7D. Call me lazy. I do think it's easier to deal with these issues for long-focal length type imagery (i.e. OOF backgrounds that are easy to mask around using a variety of techniques); for WA applications, selective sharpening becomes much harder to implement elegantly, especially when printing large. Take that with a bag of salt, but I've never been a fan of NR nor selective sharpening for most routine images, and have never needed to be with all other cameras I've used.

I captured many fine images with my 7D, and it was a camera I wanted to love (technically), but just couldn't (practically). Its feature set is rich for a crop camera, the build is fine, and the frame rate was a great choice by Canon. It simply turns out that for many, the image quality didn't quite do it. It should be OK that a few or many voice a similar opinion, without calling into question one's skills or motives.

Keep on shooting,

Jeff








7D







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Sep 06, 2012 at 01:25 PM
Jeff
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p.19 #5 · How noisy is your 7D?


and...





1D3







5D3




Sep 06, 2012 at 01:25 PM
greetobegine
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p.19 #6 · How noisy is your 7D?


Jeff,

Thank you for your interesting ideas on the 7D. And taking the personal time to post examples. ^^



Sep 06, 2012 at 01:39 PM
Charles Gallo
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p.19 #7 · How noisy is your 7D?


Jeff Nolten wrote:
There I totally agree.



Sep 06, 2012 at 01:57 PM
uz2work
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p.19 #8 · How noisy is your 7D?


PetKal wrote:
Here we go, talking about thread killing. My preference, which is based on my experience, you call a "myth" which I've picked up on the internet. Well, at least you haven't classified my few posts in here as "drivel" (yet).


I have no trouble at all with your sharing your opinion, even if it does sometimes come across with a rather condescending tone, that, with the 7D, you need proximity to the subject. That opinion, however, is completely contrary to my experience and, I think, that of others who have posted in this thread. My experience has been that it is in those exact situations that the 7D really shines. While I have no idea why your experience has been different from mine, you sharing that experience is good with me. And I also have no issue with seeing other posts from those who explain well-reasoned complaints with the performance of the 7D. In this thread, I've said that I would not begin to claim that the 7D would be my first choice of camera bodies for a number of types of shooting.

What I have taken exception to, however, is the posts of one individual who has repeatedly posted his dislike for the 7D and who has tried to support his feelings with numerous points that are, without question factually dead wrong. One example would be claiming that a crop camera has shallower depth of field when shot with the same lens and the same framing when, in fact, just the opposite is true. I also insure you that I was reluctant to even reply to those posts with factual errors, but I couldn't bring myself to let those factual errors go unchallenged because he was, in fact, supporting his position with what can accurately be described as "drivel". I will admit that, when that individual repeatedly persisted in making claims based on factual inaccuracies, I allowed my frustration to lead me to react in a more harsh manner than I normally would think was appropriate.

The bottom line is that sharing different points of view is a main ingredient to a healthy and valuable discussion. When, however, someone continues to base his/her disagreement on "evidence" that is factually incorrect and when that individual refuses even to acknowledge what is, in fact, factually correct, the factual errors need to be challenged.

I also am happy to have participated in numerous places in this thread by providing examples of 7D shots with the raw conversions and 100% crops and also in taking my try at working with the raw files that others have posted links to, and I hope to be able to continue to make similar contributions.

Les



Sep 06, 2012 at 02:04 PM
uz2work
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p.19 #9 · How noisy is your 7D?


Here is a shot from recent shooting at ISO 800, which is as high as I've needed to go in recent shooting. With proper exposure, I think I could have gone higher with the ISO if needed and still been ok with noise. Also note that the 7D AF had no trouble whatever with getting this shot with a busy background and the other 3 shots taken in a short burst.

As with the other shots that I have posted in this thread, I admit that my processing and post processing skills are at a very basic level, and I'm quite sure that some of the others who have posted in this thread could have come up with results better than did I, but I am grateful for the opportunity that this thread is providing me to learn some new techniques.

First, here is the full original shot after raw conversion with no post processing. In the conversion, default noise reduction settings were used and sharpening was disabled.

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_4130-r-eagle-nest-8-18-121.jpg

Here is a 100% crop from that raw conversion, again, with no post processing. Yes, there is some noise visible in the background, but it is well below my threshold for it being a problem, and it disappears in a print.

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_4130eagle-nest-c-8-18-12-11.jpg

Here is the final image after post processing. Post processing included no further noise reduction and selective sharpening of just the bird.

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_4130eagle-w-nest-8-18-121.jpg

Les



Sep 06, 2012 at 02:50 PM
BrianO
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p.19 #10 · How noisy is your 7D?


PetKal wrote:
.... It is somewhat ironic that I get the best IQ out of 7D in shots with relative proximity to target (assuming low and moderate ISO values). The depth of detail that 7D generates in those conditions is peerless. However, I haven't had much success with it on long range shots even at low ISO values. The primary problem was inconsistent and sloppy AF, such as missing a bird and focusing on a branch behind it. That trend was so clear cut, that I had to drop 7D from long range shooting applications altogether.


uz2work wrote:
...I have no idea where the myth that you need proximity to the subject to do well with the 7D came from. My suspicion is that it is just another example of one of those many things that, when repeated enough times on the internet, becomes engraved in the minds of people.


"Myth"? PetKal is speaking from his direct experience, not repeating something he read on the Internet.



Sep 06, 2012 at 03:23 PM
Liquidstone
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p.19 #11 · How noisy is your 7D?


PetKal wrote:
Last summer I did a whole series of GBH shots with 7D + 800L, and I was pleased with the results, although I had to apply NR on some of those files even at ISO 200, because of large crops. However, that was a small price to pay. Again, the targets were relatively large/close, barely moving and easy to focus on, and in very good light.
Under those conditions I was able to utilise the 7D's prodigeous sensor pixel density very well.

Here is one example from that GBH series, probably cropped close to 50%.



That's a work of art, Peter..... superb!

I wonder though why with such a large bird, you still need to crop much with a 7D + 800 mm? Perhaps you were shooting from a relatively long distance? Would love to see the original framing of the image - an uncropped FF version of that shot (resized to web size).



Sep 06, 2012 at 04:43 PM
uz2work
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p.19 #12 · How noisy is your 7D?


BrianO wrote:
"Myth"? PetKal is speaking from his direct experience, not repeating something he read on the Internet.



And there are plenty of us who have just as much, probably more, experience using the 7D and who have come to just the opposite conclusion.

There are many possible causes of an inability to resolve detail at further distances (or any distance), including the need for micro adjustment or inaccurate micro adjustment.

Below is a photo that I would say was clearly taken without anything near close proximity to the subjects. Below that is a rather severe crop of the same image. When I see as much detail as I do in an image that was taken from such a distance and had to be cropped that severely, it becomes hard for me to believe that there is something inherent in the 7D that makes it unable to do well without close proximity to the subject.

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_3104eagle-nest-f-7-15-12--1.jpg

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_3104eagle-nest--c-7-15-121.jpg

Les




Sep 06, 2012 at 04:52 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.19 #13 · How noisy is your 7D?


PetKal wrote:
That's the word I've been looking for. For years I thought I was doing something wrong. Finally, after thousands upon thousands of similar shots, I had to confront the possibility that I just can not be that slow and inept. Something was fundamentally lacking in their Servo AF routines. Now, since I've got 1DX, I finally feel my camera is doing its AF job well, and no more signs of a hit-or-miss AF performance.



Given that Canon has now dropped it's opposition to putting 1 series class AF in pro-sumer models I fully expect to see a crop camera with the new AF in due course. I agree 7D AF while overall better than what came before still suffers some weird inconsistencies in performance I've never been able to work out - one minute infallible the next unable to focus. The 5D III is far more consistent and I haven't even tried the different servo options yet. A 7D with 5D III AF, and improved noise would be a wonderful wildlife tool.



Sep 06, 2012 at 05:24 PM
Charles Gallo
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p.19 #14 · How noisy is your 7D?


I'm really starting to think there may be 'good' and 'bad' 7D's - I know that mine is VERY early. Think I'll send it in for calibration or something. I'm looking at that slightly OOF bird shot - the lens focuses FINE on test charts, the red box is right on the bird, and it is SOFT


Sep 06, 2012 at 05:51 PM
Liquidstone
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p.19 #15 · How noisy is your 7D?


Charles Gallo wrote:
I'm really starting to think there may be 'good' and 'bad' 7D's - I know that mine is VERY early. Think I'll send it in for calibration or something. I'm looking at that slightly OOF bird shot - the lens focuses FINE on test charts, the red box is right on the bird, and it is SOFT


My first 7D was abnormally noisy, so I exchanged it. Of the half a dozen or so 7Ds I've shot, including a pre-production unit, all except that particular noisy one has the same noise characteristics. So yes, like any other manufactured product, some copies may be bad (and it can happen to a high end body like the 1Dx as shown by a recent thread here at FM).

I suggest you take a snapshot at high ISO that's properly exposed and share the RAW here so we can take a look at the file and compare the noise to our copy. If you can do this, try to have some detailed objects rendered sharply in the frame.



Sep 06, 2012 at 06:02 PM
uz2work
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p.19 #16 · How noisy is your 7D?


I don't normally take a lot of shots where the subject(s) is(are) very tiny in the frame, but I remembered another shot that I think is an example of how the 7D can, in fact, perform even when the subjects are not in close proximity.

This shot was taken from a distance of about 2 miles across the Mississippi River. Below is a 100% crop from a portion of the shot. The image quality and level of detail in the crop certainly are not what I would want if shooting from a much closer distance, but, from 2 miles away, I'm not sure what more I could expect, regardless of the camera being used.

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_807_pelicans_7-12-101.jpg

http://www.wildlifeimagesbyles.net/db_IMG_807_pelicans_c_7-12-101.jpg

Les

Edited on Sep 06, 2012 at 07:47 PM · View previous versions



Sep 06, 2012 at 06:24 PM
PetKal
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p.19 #17 · How noisy is your 7D?


Liquidstone wrote:
That's a work of art, Peter..... superb!

I wonder though why with such a large bird, you still need to crop much with a 7D + 800 mm? Perhaps you were shooting from a relatively long distance? Would love to see the original framing of the image - an uncropped FF version of that shot (resized to web size).


Thank you, pare.
I do not have that original JPG any longer. But I took a second look at similar shots from that series, and the crop is more like around 25%, rather than 50%.
If I remember right, the bird was something like 60-70 ft distant which is not that much for an 800mm lens.




Sep 06, 2012 at 07:00 PM
PetKal
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p.19 #18 · How noisy is your 7D?


Here is another 7D/800L proximity/low crop/low ISO (200) shot which I thought worked out OK with 7D. Too bad I can not remember whether this was shot handheld or off a pod.
( The white dots/spots on the water surface was some sort of seeds or detritus floating.....too much trouble in cleaning that up. So it is not 7D noise or anything like that )

The scond image again proximity/low crop/moderate ISO (400) type. Shot with 7D/500 f/4 handheld. This one caused me a bit of trouble cleaning up the noise first, and then cleaning the NR artifacts (pixelation and blotchiness in the background).

Edited on Sep 06, 2012 at 09:48 PM · View previous versions



Sep 06, 2012 at 07:52 PM
Charles Gallo
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p.19 #19 · How noisy is your 7D?


Liquidstone wrote:
I suggest you take a snapshot at high ISO that's properly exposed and share the RAW here so we can take a look at the file and compare the noise to our copy. If you can do this, try to have some detailed objects rendered sharply in the frame.


I'll say that the 7D is good at <= ISO400, and I really don't have much to show that is higher ISO, basically because in the first few weeks I said "yuck" and stopped shooting anything that required higher ISO than that.

I'm not saying the 7D is _BAD_ (as in unusable), don't get me wrong on that. Where I get driven nuts is places like waldr_p photos on page 1. The noise in the green area just sticks out to me. The ONLY places I get driven nuts is 'large expanses of sky'/'large expanses of OOF background" In the SUBJECT of the photo, it doesn't bother me at all (see msalvetti s F16 shot on the 1st page - doesn't bother me at all - ditto n0b0's photo of the park bench - yes I can SEE the noise, it doesn't BOTHER me). Basically it comes down to, if there is very large areas that should be perfectly smooth, any mottling at all makes me nuts (like I said, I used to shoot K25 and Tech-Pan because I thought K64 and Plus-x in Microdol were too grainy in the same situations)

I pretty much have decided how I'll answer the problem. Like I said, the issue ISN'T where the 7D DOES excel, - long range shots where you are using the 1.6x crop factor to get 'more pixels per bird' (replace bird with whatever your subject is here). My Answer? I'm NOT going to replace the 7D for that use - but for the larger scenics, the macro work, and where I can get close enough, there is a 5DIII on the way (BTW, the fact that the 7D missed the focus on that landing bird I linked to bothers me more than the noise (what little where is) - and in that case, the bird was close enough that the 5D would be fine - the bird/reflection takes 80% or so of the original frame)



Sep 06, 2012 at 08:22 PM
TeamSpeed
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p.19 #20 · How noisy is your 7D?


I like macro work on the 7D over the 5D2, just a personal preference though.







Sep 06, 2012 at 09:07 PM
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