Yeah, seriously... I find it odd that you second shooters are making all these "demands." When I second shoot, I play by the primary's rules. If I don't like them, I don't shoot with them. I don't go telling them "this is how it's going to be, no exceptions."
fullyreclined wrote:
I'm probably inviting a bit of flaming here but what the hell, I need to vent.
I hired a 2nd to shoot a wedding last July. She had a good portfolio and references to boot. However, after closing in on a month since the wedding I'm in possession no images. She claimed to have mailed the images on discs. Images never show up after a week (local mail - should take 3 days). I email back saying that and requested to meet up instead. No answer. It's been 3 weeks & voicemails, emails, and even FB messages still go unanswered. In the meantime you post your own images for client proofing, and hoping and praying that the person you hired is simply on vacation...
I'm freaking out. Should I give her some more time? What you guys think?...Show more →
OK I will give you 2 answers My nice and helpful answer and then my being a dick answer.
1. My nice answer.... Send her a certified letter saying she has x amount of time to deliver or she will be visiting you in court. Threaten in a nice and legal way that the client will get involved in the lawsuit too. Which at that point the client will be demanding a lot more money than you would. Scare the crap out of her. Or just go pay her a visit and do not leave until you get the images.
2. My dick answer but still helpful... Did you have a contract with the second shooter? If not, why not? Thats dumb to not have one. Why would you ever split after the wedding without getting the images first. I tell all my second shooters they can not leave until I get a copy. I dont care of I get shitty raw files because some images they were playing around. I am not there to judge shitty work. I am there to collect the work and make sure I get a copy of it regardless of it being edited from them or not. Then if they want to send me edited JPG's later then they can. But it is my wedding and my vision, I will edit the raws to match my style.
OK so my second answer wasnt as dickish as I thought. But man, in the future dont let any second shooter leave. I dont care if they need to go catch a flight. Take the damn cards and copy them. One time I gave my second shooter $100 and said give me the cards and go buy new ones since he had to fly back to chicago. I said I would mail him the raw files the next day after I copied them. Dude, you gotta do what you gotta do.
Now give me that bitches info so I can help get your files.
Why wouldnt he be serious? Why work with someone you don't know or trust when it is your business on the line? My wife is my main 2nd shooter. My best friend is my other 2nd shooter but it took me 4 years to trust him enough to let him shoot with me. And I have known him for a long time.
SGallant wrote:
As a second I wouldn't. Who's to say the reverse wouldn't happen and you take forever to get me back $100s in cards. Plus if your second is busy doing multiple weddings in a short time frame how does that play out?
I agree with what others have said, pay at end of night after a full download, or pay when you get the images delivered to you.
If you can't afford a few memory cards then don't even bother being in the business. Memory cards are so cheap when you look at the cost of everything else.
I have 150GB of cards so if I have to lend cards out I can and it doesnt matter.
TTLKurtis wrote:
Inku, you take people's cards and mail them back? That so would not fly with me. Why don't you just buy CF cards for 2nd to use and then you can take them at end of night and pay.
It's not your wedding. Don't like the rules of the primary then don't shoot with them. That easy.
I had a second that was supposed to work with me6 years ago as an intern all summer. She demanded I get her cameras, lenses and flashes. I said you bring your own stuff and I will teach you and help. She didnt like the rules so I told her to leave. She never got her college credits that semester because no one would run her rules.
Inku Yo wrote:
Yeah, seriously... I find it odd that you second shooters are making all these "demands." When I second shoot, I play by the primary's rules. If I don't like them, I don't shoot with them. I don't go telling them "this is how it's going to be, no exceptions."
It's not like that at all. I basically have 3 demands, my hourly rate, that if I'm traveling more than 60 miles I get paid the equivalent of an additional hour, and that I'm provided memory cards which I hand over at the end. Like I said the memory card thing really just makes things easier for everyone involved. The photographer gets their photos immediately after and they don't have to bring a laptop and I don't have to worry about hanging around at the end of the night or meeting up later in the week.
I also ask for an hourly rate that's fair and reasonable. Weddings aren't my primary business but I offer years of experience and a skillset that transfers over well. Also there are really two views when it comes to using 2nds. Some view second as trainees, others believe 2nds should be just as capable as the primary. I cater to the crowd that likes to have a competent and experienced 2nd shooter, and that has value so I feel completely comfortable demanding my rate. If you're hiring 2nds with an ad that says "It pays $250 for 10 hours." You're really limiting yourself to that trainee type of 2nd shooter. And like any good 2nd, I have no problem carrying bags or setting up lights or posing couples or doing table shots. I'm still getting paid what I feel my experience and time is worth.
swoop wrote:
It's not like that at all. I basically have 3 demands, my hourly rate, that if I'm traveling more than 60 miles I get paid the equivalent of an additional hour, and that I'm provided memory cards which I hand over at the end. Like I said the memory card thing really just makes things easier for everyone involved. The photographer gets their photos immediately after and they don't have to bring a laptop and I don't have to worry about hanging around at the end of the night or meeting up later in the week.
OR, I can just take your cards at the end of the night and UPS them back to you at the beginning of the week with a check. Sounds pretty simple to me.
That's great that you have all these qualifiers with regards to who you work with, but it's a buyers' market. Not that you care, but with everything you've written in this post, you've eliminated at least one buyer.
Inku Yo wrote:
I can just take your cards at the end of the night and UPS them back to you at the beginning of the week with a check..
It's basically this
Taking Cards Pros
1. Photographer gets images at end of night.
Cons
1. Photographer has to walk to post office and mail cards within 2 days.
2. Photographer incurs risk of loss of cards and has to pay for new cards.
3. Second goes without cards for 2 days. If lost/damaged in mail then longer.
4. Possibility of cheap/nonworking/corrupted cards provided by 2nd resulting in loss of images.
5. Second may or may not get images for portfolio if photographer erases cards.
Providing Cards Pros
1. Photographer gets images at end of night.
2. Photographer provides cards at their standard of quality/preferred brand.
3. Business completed at end of wedding.
Cons
1. Miss out on a trip to UPS.
2. Second may or may not get images for portfolio if unable to copy cards.
Copying at Wedding Pros
1. It's the standard method.
Cons
1. Have to carry around a laptop.
2. 30 minutes to an hour of extra time spent post wedding.
3. Possibility of technical issues which have to be resolved then and there.
Taking Cards Pros
1. Photographer gets images at end of night.
Cons
1. Photographer has to walk to post office and mail cards within 2 days.
2. Photographer incurs risk of loss of cards and has to pay for new cards.
3. Second goes without cards for 2 days. If lost/damaged in mail then longer.
4. Possibility of cheap/nonworking/corrupted cards provided by 2nd resulting in loss of images.
5. Second may or may not get images for portfolio if photographer erases cards.
Providing Cards Pros
1. Photographer gets images at end of night.
2. Photographer provides cards at their standard of quality/preferred brand.
3. Business completed at end of wedding.
Cons
1. Miss out on a trip to UPS.
2. Second may or may not get images for portfolio if unable to copy cards.
Copying at Wedding Pros
1. It's the standard method.
Cons
1. Have to carry around a laptop.
2. 30 minutes to an hour of extra time spent post wedding.
3. Possibility of technical issues which have to be resolved then and there. ...Show more →
You're still not addressing the fact that a lot (not going to say most) couples get ready in separate locations and thus, the two photographers start off in separate locations. Am I going to work with someone that demands that I mail them cards beforehand or meet up beforehand or go out and buy cards beforehand and reimburse them? No.
Inku Yo wrote:
You're still not addressing the fact that a lot (not going to say most) couples get ready in separate locations and thus, the two photographers start off in separate locations. Am I going to work with someone that demands that I mail them cards beforehand or meet up beforehand or go out and buy cards beforehand and reimburse them? No.
I would add another option, FTP. I got paid when the primary confirmed the FTP transfer was complete.
I have seconded for 4 photographers. 3 Got their images transferred VIA FTP and had the benefit of me culling blinks and blurred shots. And the 4th downloaded my images at the end of the night.
For me I prefer FTP, with today's connections it's easy for everyone. I start an upload and do something else, or I start a download and do something else. I get my images, the primary has the benefit of not sifting thru my shots I use to confirm my lighting.
Inku Yo wrote:
Yeah, seriously... I find it odd that you second shooters are making all these "demands." When I second shoot, I play by the primary's rules. If I don't like them, I don't shoot with them. I don't go telling them "this is how it's going to be, no exceptions."
was going to write the same thing. this thread has turned out to be interestingly funny!
swoop wrote:
Like I said the memory card thing really just makes things easier for everyone involved. The photographer gets their photos immediately after and they don't have to bring a laptop and I don't have to worry about hanging around at the end of the night or meeting up later in the week.
for you, ken. this is easier for you. i think its up to the primary to determine what is easier for them. they lay down the rules, the second then makes a determination if they want to play by the rules.
My nice and helpful answer and then my being a dick answer.