p.8 #2 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?
I agree, but still x2 did not show me anything exciting even for $2000. I wish I had my wife's Nex5n with a kit lens with me right now. I bet it would "draw" better than X2. FlyPenFly wrote:
It makes zero sense to compare a $2000 compact all in one camera with a folding lens to a $12,000 system.
p.8 #3 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?
Bifurcator wrote:
Total cop-out bro!
The artistic abilities of a photographer has nothing to do with this issue being discussed of shutter lag. Of course human powers of precognition, prediction, and preemptive timing exists. No one is disputing that. We're talking about different cameras actual lag-time in real-world terms.
Also what do you say about DPR saying the "window finder" as you called it is only 90% coverage?
I'm not talking about artistic abilities but rather learning the in's and out's of how a specific camera behaves. If, for instance, it has .25 sec. delay, you get used to that and unconsciously learn to anticipate that .25 sec. Hand the photographer used to .25 sec. delays a camera with no delays and what happens at first? He misses every decisive moment since the shutter goes off sooner than he's used to - until he becomes accustomed to shooting a camera with no delay. Pretty much all of the cameras discussed here have such small delays when used correctly that it's a non issue once someone with any competence learns to use whichever camera to get what they want out of it.
90% is the rating for the frame line accuracy. The field of view through the finder shows much more outside of these frame lines thus you are able to see you're subject enter the frame.
p.8 #4 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?
vovkinson wrote:
I tried X2 and it did not show me any leica character.
This is probably not the best example to illustrate the difference between X2 & M9 but I expected more from the X2 anyway. I know this not a fair comparison (summilux 50 1.4 & elmarit 28 2.8) but X2 image is pale and lifeless for 2K camera. I don't care if it's leica, fuji or olympus if it makes $hitty images.
100% crop. Converted from RAW files. No white balancing , no sharpening have been applied.
That's because the X2 is not a "real" Leica! It's pretty much made almost entirely in Japan and assembled just enough in Germany so Leica can put their Made in Germany stamp on it. Probably made by Sigma, Nikon, Fuji or someone similar. Not that it has to be made in Germany by Leica. Some fo the best Leica lenses I have used were made in Canada and, of course the M's are mostly made in Portugal. In those cases though, it is Leica making them elsewhere - not subcontracting out to someone else. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-x1-forum/168396-if-lenses-x1-arent-produced-germany.html
p.8 #5 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?
Bifurcator wrote:
K, you can't tell by me tho, I've never used one enough to know.
Got a stopwatch? Give it a try....
Digital works too BTW.
Also this page says that the X100's: "Optical Viewfinder: 0.5X magnification with approx. 90% frame coverage"
Tariq Gibran wrote:
That's funny. I have never timed a camera in my life (well, we did play a game in photo school where we guessed the mechanical shutter speed form the sound of it but that's different!) - nor have any of the "famous" photographers I assisted long ago either. Honestly, it's all academic as I mentioned above once you know all the in's and out's of a particular tool. At that point, a decent photographer knows how to conjure anything they want out of it and a millisecond here or there is not going to matter nowhere near as much as skill and abilities. ...Show more → Bifurcator wrote:
Total cop-out bro!
The artistic abilities of a photographer has nothing to do with this issue being discussed of shutter lag. Of course human powers of precognition, prediction, and preemptive timing exists. No one is disputing that. We're talking about different cameras actual lag-time in real-world terms.
Also what do you say about DPR saying the "window finder" as you called it is only 90% coverage?
Tariq Gibran wrote:
I'm not talking about artistic abilities but rather learning the in's and out's of how a specific camera behaves. If, for instance, it has .25 sec. delay, you get used to that and unconsciously learn to anticipate that .25 sec. Hand the photographer used to .25 sec. delays a camera with no delays and what happens at first? He misses every decisive moment since the shutter goes off sooner than he's used to - until he becomes accustomed to shooting a camera with no delay. Pretty much all of the cameras discussed here have such small delays when used correctly that it's a non issue once someone with any competence learns to use whichever camera to get what they want out of it.
90% is the rating for the frame line accuracy. The field of view through the finder shows much more outside of these frame lines thus you are able to see you're subject enter the frame. ...Show more →
OK cool. Thanks for that. I agree too about the /getting used to it/ bit - for the most part. The trouble is, he's shooting kids and family shots. And there are almost no humanly possess-able predictive abilities to know when the person is going to flash that momentary smile or the sudden look in the eye which can make such shots so precious! The photog no matter how experienced is at the mercy of his own reaction time as well as the shutter lag. It's not physically possible to get around this - no way, no how. Thus reviewers often specify what the shutter lag is. And street shooters as well as serious family-type event photographers are usually pretty interested in that spec for just those reasons.
Some people in this thread were saying some of the cameras being discussed were indeed inhibitive in this respect. And this is why I mentioned about stopwatches, shutter lag, and etc. It's certainly easy enough to guess (and get used to) where a car is going to be when your shutter actually goes off - especially if the car is parked! It's impossible to guess (or get used to) when your kid (or wife) is going flash that look that made capturing the moment magic and worthwhile - even if they're parked! For such times lag times are critically important and probably one of the major reasons people still like DSLRs so much. If me I'd want the fastest possible and I would be interested in testing them out to get the "real-world" low-down.
p.8 #6 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?
Bifurcator wrote:
OK cool. Thanks for that. I agree too about the /getting used to it/ bit - for the most part. The trouble is, he's shooting kids and family shots. And there are almost no humanly possess-able predictive abilities to know when the person is going to flash that momentary smile or the sudden look in the eye which can make such shots so precious! The photog no matter how experienced is at the mercy of his own reaction time as well as the shutter lag. It's not physically possible to get around this - no way, no how. Thus reviewers often specify what the shutter lag is. And street shooters as well as serious family-type event photographers are usually pretty interested in that spec for just those reasons.
Some people in this thread were saying some of the cameras being discussed were indeed inhibitive in this respect. And this is why I mentioned about stopwatches, shutter lag, and etc. It's certainly easy enough to guess (and get used to) where a car is going to be when your shutter actually goes off - especially if the car is parked! It's impossible to guess (or get used to) when your kid (or wife) is going flash that look that made capturing the moment magic and worthwhile - even if they're parked! For such times lag times are critically important and probably one of the major reasons people still like DSLRs so much. If me I'd want the fastest possible and I would be interested in testing them out.
Hmm, I'm guessing you don't have kids? Wife? Somehow you do instinctively know when they are about to do certain things and make certain gestures.
As far as predictive abilities and photographers, that's what it IS about man. No one absolutely needs AF, 0 delay shutters or whatever to get there. Only experience. - See Henri Cartier-Bresson
p.8 #7 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?
Tariq,
I'm with you on this one. As I said earlier, I don't care who makes the camera. I just look at the image it makes. If it looks crappy I will send it back no matter if it's leica, sony or hasselblad.
As X2 is concerned, I'm kind of upset of the fact it can't deliver the character I see from leica cameras.
Tariq Gibran wrote:
That's because the X2 is not a "real" Leica! It's pretty much made almost entirely in Japan and assembled just enough in Germany so Leica can put their Made in Germany stamp on it. Probably made by Sigma, Nikon, Fuji or someone similar. Not that it has to be made in Germany by Leica. Some fo the best Leica lenses I have used were made in Canada and, of course the M's are mostly made in Portugal. In those cases though, it is Leica making them elsewhere - not subcontracting out to someone else. http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-x1-forum/168396-if-lenses-x1-arent-produced-germany.html
p.8 #8 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Hmm, I'm guessing you don't have kids? Wife? Somehow you do instinctively know when they are about to do certain things and make certain gestures.
As far as predictive abilities and photographers, that's what it IS about man. No one absolutely needs AF, 0 delay shutters or whatever to get there. Only experience. - See Henri Cartier-Bresson
4 kids, wife (rip), GF, kids's GFs, kid's kids... etc.
I simply just can't agree with you at all on this one. No way!
I guess no fashion photographer would agree either. Thus shoots lasting hours with near 1000 exposures per set, per outfit!
PS: "Don't absolutely need it" but every little bit helps and is critically important for capturing humans with still cameras.
p.8 #10 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?
Tariq Gibran wrote:
Hmm, I'm guessing you don't have kids? Wife? Somehow you do instinctively know when they are about to do certain things and make certain gestures.
As far as predictive abilities and photographers, that's what it IS about man. No one absolutely needs AF, 0 delay shutters or whatever to get there. Only experience. - See Henri Cartier-Bresson
I simply just can't agree with you at all on this one. No way!
I guess no fashion photographer would agree either. Thus shoots lasting hours with near 1000 exposures per set, per outfit!
vovkinson wrote:
Bifurcator,
You have 4 kids?!
Wow! I barely could handle one(almost killed myself when he started crying at 2:00 am)
I take my hat off to you man!
Kids rock! I admit the first one was a bit unnerving but once the routine was basically understood it was nothing but fun! (even the 3am diaper changes!) I wanted 13 kids but there was a tragedy so that didn't happen. I'd still like to have a couple more if I could find the right woman to do it with! I guess that doesn't happen too often tho.
I simply just can't agree with you at all on this one. No way!
I guess no fashion photographer would agree either. Thus shoots lasting hours with near 1000 exposures per set, per outfit!
PS: "Don't absolutely need it" but every little bit helps and is critically important for capturing humans with still cameras.
Well, you have me beat in the Kids/ wife department.
I have worked with lot's of Fashion photographers - 1-2%ers as Fly says. The best ones used slow MF or large format cameras. Pre-digital and nothing even remotely close to 1000 exp per look/ light, etc. Someone who shoots 1000 exp. per outfit sounds like someone who has no clue, confidence or neither!
