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Archive 2012 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

Bifurcator
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p.4 #1 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

altern3 wrote:
Almost everyone with OM-D has bought a third-party grip or a battery grip, so they could 'hold' the camera properly.

And here is the comparison, yes the D7000 has more heft but the fake DSLR blob on the top of OM-D gives them similar highest. http://camerasize.com/compact/#7,289,ha,t

cputeq wrote:
I have to wonder if you've actually used (or how much you've used) a m43 system before, including the OM-D.

Dont' take this as an insult - Believe it or not, I was very much like you before I bought the OM-D (my first m43 camera) - I looked at numbers and just couldn't "see" it and it looked about what I would handle with a D7000 or my now 7D.

Trust me, there is no freaking comparison.

I've always said the same thing that altern3 is saying. If you use alt lenses (except for a few RF lenses) then �4/3 cameras occupy about the same amount of space or as he put it: The size differences are minimal. And I'll add inconsequential to that as well. If a person fits his kit with all the smallest �4/3 native lenses then there's something to actually talk about - otherwise, nope.

Also someone said "it's half the weight" as if that held some meaning. Consider the difference between 1 gram and 0.5 grams. One is half the weight of the other but in your pocket you'd never know it. It's pretty much the same with cameras IMO. Again, sure, if you fit your kit with all the lightest �4/3 native lenses then there're something to talk about. But if you're a one lens toter or you use adapted lenses (like almost everyone here is doing) then nope, like the 0.5 grams in your pocket you won't even know it.

There is however a perception thing that I think occurs a lot here. People get told just how light and small these cameras are (endlessly and repeatedly) so their perception of reality is altered. The reality itself however remains a constant. It's like when some chick blows cigarette smoke in your face. The reality of the event is a constant but in one case the guy takes it as a sexual advance and in the other instance he assumes she's telling him to get lost. This is also mixed with the placebo (power of suggestion) affect. If I give a person a 15lbs backpack raving about how lightweight it is and have them carry it for a day at the end of that day they won't be minding it as much as if I had been ranting about how freaking heavy it was!

The reality is that �4/3 cameras with a single lens or alt lenses are just not very different in size and weight. Your perception of the differences however may differ from reality considerably based on what you hear and what you read.

Aug 11, 2012 at 11:58 AM

bobbytan
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p.4 #2 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

Thanks for sharing your story!

TRReichman wrote:
I know Chuck a bit, we're both wedding photographers and we recorded a podcast together HERE.

I also recently decided that I needed a smaller camera for personal use. I didn't find myself pulling out the D3 very often for light usage so I wasn't shooting anything but paid work. Being a huge Leica fan I ended up buying an M9 and I was horribly disappointed. I found the image quality to be worse than the original 5D in color, white balance control and overall noise and DR. I know people will disagree with me but those were my informed opinions....Show more →

Aug 11, 2012 at 12:12 PM

Jman13
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p.4 #3 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

There's a big difference in half the weight when my m4/3 kit weighs 6 lbs. The difference between carrying 6 lbs on your shoulder and 12 lbs on your should is enormous. If it were .5 grams, you're right, but we're talking pounds, not fractions of a gram.

Also, there is a difference on adapted lenses as well, as you're using lenses with half the focal length for the same FOV. (There's a big difference between carrying a 200mm lens and a 400mm lens).

Plus, I don't think most m4/3 shooters here are using predominantly adapted lenses. Some, yes, but not the full kit. I use adapted lenses on my m4/3 cams, but I very predominantly use native lenses. Mainly because the native lenses in almost all cases are superior to any similar focal length adapted lens, unless you start spending obscene amounts of money. The Oly 45 is as good or better than pretty much every 50mm lens out there unless you start looking at Leica for 10x the cost. The Oly 75 is spanking pretty much every 85mm lens for other things. (check out this comparison to the Nikon 85/1.4...which it utterly destroys at wide apertures: http://www.wlcastleman.com/equip/reviews/olympus75mm/index.htm )

At the wide end, it's even less of a comparison, as no one is going to use a 20mm full frame lens instead of the 20mm pancake.

Edited on Aug 11, 2012 at 12:14 PM · View previous versions

Aug 11, 2012 at 12:13 PM

Bifurcator
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p.4 #4 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

I'm listening to the podcast now. Hehehee Passion...

Edited on Aug 11, 2012 at 12:20 PM · View previous versions

Aug 11, 2012 at 12:14 PM

vovkinson
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p.4 #5 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

@canerino,
If you have money then Leica M9 (Summicron 28 2.0 & Summilux 50 1.4 )
You will get top notch IQ (IMO better than any of Canon L lenses ) in small package.
Otherwise, consider the options posted here (OM-D, Nex7, etc are not bad for money)

Aug 11, 2012 at 12:15 PM

bobbytan
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p.4 #6 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

What you say makes a bit of sense if you are just looking for a pocket camera ... in which case I would highly recommend the Sony X100. But if you are looking for a full systems camera with a range of lenses, the difference in bulk and weight is HUGE compared to a DSLR.

Bifurcator wrote:
I've always said the same thing that altern3 is saying. If you use alt lenses (except for a few RF lenses) then �4/3 cameras occupy about the same amount of space or as he put it: The size differences are minimal. And I'll add inconsequential to that as well. If a person fits his kit with all the smallest �4/3 native lenses then there's something to actually talk about - otherwise, nope.

Also someone said "it's half the weight" as if that held some meaning. Consider the difference between 1 gram and 0.5 grams. One is half the weight of the...Show more →

Edited on Aug 11, 2012 at 12:22 PM · View previous versions

Aug 11, 2012 at 12:18 PM

Jman13
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p.4 #7 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

I will say, though, that if you're going to be using predominantly adapted lenses, the body to get is the NEX-7. For native AF lenses, though, there just isn't the lens selection available for NEX yet.

Aug 11, 2012 at 12:18 PM

Bifurcator
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p.4 #8 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

Jman13,
My typical carry with �4/3 is between 900 grams (including the strap and plate!) and 1.8kg. The 200 to 500 grams that a larger camera would add is completely inconsequential. If a person is getting a camera for a light carry-around they won't be carrying around 6 to 10 different lenses. More likely just one and maybe two on the outside.

Aug 11, 2012 at 12:20 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.4 #9 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

canerino wrote:
Hey all!

I know I'm asking a very vague question, but I really do not know anything about the mirrorless world. I currently shoot Canon gear (5d3/5d2 + 24L/35L/85L/135L) for wedding photography (www.hofferphotography.com/anerino). I use to document my family life virtually everyday. Since shooting more weddings, I'm just not breaking out the 'big gear'. Here are some of my favorite family images: www.growingupanerino.tumblr.com

My intentions are to buy a "good" mirrorless camera (either with a fast, wide prime or buy one), buy a 32GB card and fill the card before I process any images. Problem is, I dont know anything...Show more →

Looking at you're work, I would recommend sticking with an optical finder versus an EVF (or at least try an EVF before taking the plunge.). Personally, I MUCH prefer an optical finder solution (EVF gives me eye strain, can have slow refresh rates and absolutely fails in back-lit situations. There are pluses for MF lenses but I still feel the current ones are not quite there yet all considered). If you do that, the choice becomes MUCH easier as there simply are not many choices! Fuji X100 (or upcoming X200) for value and IQ since the optical finder is great imo, as is the rather fast F2 35mm FF equiv. lens. X-Pro1 is still in beta and not quite there yet in my experience so I would wait on dramatically improved AF via firmware or updated model. It's also rather expensive for what it is compared to what you get from the X100. Of course there is Leica if you happen to have a money tree. Otherwise, many are happy with the OM-D so you could try it and see if you get along with the EVF or just wait a month to see what Photokina brings.

Aug 11, 2012 at 12:26 PM

vovkinson
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p.4 #10 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

BTW, leica m9 is a camera for lifetime. Purchasing this beauty will hit your wallet only one time, it's like a surgery - hurts for a couple of days then the pain subsides and you'll feel better afterwards. Also it will reduce the expenses buying/upgrading to the newest 4/3 cameras in the future.
The reason I'm writing all this is that I was in @canerino shoes trying Nex5, Nex7, Fuji X100/XPro1, etc and then a friend of mine gave me his M9 to try...
Well, I can tell you... I survived after negotiating with my wife about family budget and made the purchase. No regrets so far. But again, it's just me... and my story.

Aug 11, 2012 at 12:31 PM

Jman13
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p.4 #11 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

Bifurcator wrote:
Jman13,
My typical carry with �4/3 is between 900 grams (including the strap and plate!) and 1.8kg. The 200 to 500 grams that a larger camera would add is completely inconsequential. If a person is getting a camera for a light carry-around they won't be carrying around 6 to 10 different lenses. More likely just one and maybe two on the outside.

But you're not counting the extra weight of similar lenses.

I did a blog post on this about a month ago.

My 'light' carry when I want some variety is my OM-D, the 12/2, 25/1.4 and 45/1.8. This all fits in a very tiny Lowepro Rezo 110 (which wouldn't even fit most APS-C DSLRs without a lens). This setup weighs 1.17 kg, including the bag.

An equivalent APS-C DLSR setup, including a weathersealed body, would be the 7D, 14/2.8, 28/1.8 and 50/1.8. A bag that would fit that from Lowepro (to match as close as possible) would be the Nova 160. That setup weighs 2.56 kg...well over double, and a full three pounds heavier. Plus, the 28/1.8 and 50/1.8 are no match optically for the 25/1.4 and 45/1.8. Put in the Sigma 30/1.4 and 50/1.4 and you're looking at an even heavier kit.

My 'regular' carry, for say, landscape/hiking, is my Think Tank Retrospective 5 with OM-D, 7-14, 25/1.4, 45/2.8 macro and 45-175. INCLUDING all my filters and accessories (because I didn't take them out of the bag), it weighs 2.7 kg.

A similar 7D setup would include the Sigma 8-16, sigma 30/1.4, Canon 60/2.8 macro and 55-250 zoom, in the retrospective 10. This weighs in at 4.1 kg, and doesn't include all the accessories/filters, etc. Still over 3 lbs heavier.

Go to a 5D III (or other full frame), with 17-40L, 50/1.4, 100/2.8 macro and Tamron 70-300 VC for a similar aperture/capability kit (though not as wide), and you're looking at 4.45 kg, nearly 4 lbs heavier. The difference between 6 lbs and 10 lbs is quite substantial, and the size difference is even more substantial, IMO.

Edited on Aug 11, 2012 at 12:37 PM · View previous versions

Aug 11, 2012 at 12:31 PM

maxx9photo
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p.4 #12 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

Mirror(less)..mirror(less) .. on the wall, who might be the best of all. My best advise just try out every single one of them, buy used or rent (so you will have a minimal loss in case you don't like any of them). Set your budget, try the best lens there is for every single of them. Xpro1 w/Fuji 35 1.4, OMD EM5 w/Panny 25 1.4, NEX 7 w/Zeiss 24. The rest of their lenses will follow once you decide which is the best suited you. Off course to each of their own, any cameras mentioned here have their pros and cons. No camera is perfect, include the M9 per say (price is absolutely not perfect for my pocket).

Edited on Aug 11, 2012 at 12:34 PM · View previous versions

Aug 11, 2012 at 12:33 PM

vovkinson
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p.4 #13 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

+1 with lens value loss and color & focal length shifting to be considered
The lens designed for a full frame will perform differently on crop sensor.

Jman13 wrote:
I will say, though, that if you're going to be using predominantly adapted lenses, the body to get is the NEX-7. For native AF lenses, though, there just isn't the lens selection available for NEX yet.

Aug 11, 2012 at 12:33 PM

cputeq
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p.4 #14 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

I've always said the same thing that altern3 is saying. If you use alt lenses (except for a few RF lenses) then �4/3 cameras occupy about the same amount of space or as he put it: The size differences are minimal. And I'll add inconsequential to that as well. If a person fits his kit with all the smallest �4/3 native lenses then there's something to actually talk about - otherwise, nope.

True and a different bit of perspective. Maybe the OP can chime in on whether he wants an entire mirrorless system or just a camera/lens combo, because that would drastically skew some suggestions

I'd still have trouble choosing between something like an X100 or a GX1 (?) and a 20 1.7 pancake, though - tough call - the X100 looks awesome, but the allure of being able to change lenses (in case, you know, the system had more than one I wanted to use) might be too great to resist.

I don't agree with your assumption that most m43 users are adapting lenses - why the hell would we, since we have more than about 4 lenses to choose from

The 2x crop really sucks for most adapting and the m43 primes are top-notch, so I see no real benefit other than to save money if one wanted cheaper MF primes to adapt. So far the only thing I've even considered adapting is my Minolta 600mm f/5.6, and that's just for pure stupidity's sake.

The NEX system is much better for adapting, as the 1.5x is a bit more tolerable to deal with, and it has peaking to help with MF (though frankly I'm more accurate with peaking off). Plus, adapting to NEX makes you forget their lens lineup is still pretty sparse.

Aug 11, 2012 at 12:52 PM

Bifurcator
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p.4 #15 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

cputeq wrote:
I don't agree with your assumption that most m43 users are adapting lenses.

No, no. Not "most �4/3 users..." but rather: "most �4/3 users here." Meaning here in the alt sub-forum. There's almost no persons posting shots with native lenses here. Probably because this is the alt. forum.

And that's all I meant.

For sure adaptees or adaptors

are probably below the 10th percentile - or there-abouts anyway! "Why would they" is pretty fraking obvious tho:

There's 2 or 3 times better IQ to be had.
There are equal or better lenses in IQ for one tenth the cost - and sometimes even less.
They appreciate the build quality and/or the historical sense of older MF lenses - as opposed to the plastic junk offerings from the mirrorless makers.
Perhaps like the OP here they already have the lenses they like and feel the mirrorless system is interim in their overall plans.
They collect (or horse-trade for profit) lenses as a hobby (slash side-job) and it's just a lot of fun to use them - on any system.
The length to resolution superiority factor! A 200/2.0 shoots like a 400/2.0 in terms of speed and focal length, costs 1/50th what a 400/2.8 would, and is easily as good or better than cropping the centers from the much more expensive D800. To match the OM-D or GH2 etc., to a FF camera in this way the FF camera would need to be over 64 megapixels.
Any combination of the above and probably 5 other things I'm not even thinking of.

And yeah, the NEX cameras might be better for adapting lenses for some people. But IMO either is good! Very good in fact! I'm having more fun to photography than I even thought possible and I shoot adapted lenses on �4/3 almost exclusively! (about a thousand images a week on average)

Edited on Aug 11, 2012 at 02:00 PM · View previous versions

Aug 11, 2012 at 01:30 PM

Jman13
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p.4 #16 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

What are you talking about with the 2 or 3 times better IQ to be had? Name me a single alt lens that is twice as good as the Panny 7-14, Panny 8mm, Olympus 12mm, Panasonic 20mm, Leica 25mm, Olympus 45mm, Leica 45mm macro or Olympus 75mm. The only think I can even think of that might be competitive is the Zeiss Planar 50mms...and they're about the same price as the Oly 45/1.8, and I'd be surprised if they surpassed it in resolution, and they dont' have better bokeh. I did a comparison of 12 50-ish lenses, and the native m4/3 lenses stomped all over the adapted lenses. Now, I didn't have access to the Zeiss 50s at the time, so maybe they'd compete, but a lot of the lenses I did use are pretty darn good lenses.

Now, at the long end, I agree with you, but from 7mm to 100mm, your argument falls a little flat.

I'd also disagree that most m4/3 users here are mostly using adapted lenses.

Aug 11, 2012 at 01:57 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.4 #17 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

I think one of the best things m43 has going for it are actually the native lenses. The ones I have used have been incredible. Now that a good Sony sensor is being used, IQ is not too far off from APS (amazing given the size disadvantage to APS) so things are definitely looking good for m43. Frankly, I don't see the point in using adapted lenses when there are so many superb m43 native lenses available except possibly at the long end as mentioned.

Aug 11, 2012 at 02:09 PM

Bifurcator
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p.4 #18 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

The panny 7-14 isn't that good! Do some actual stress testing of it. It smears light points around the outer areas of the frame quite badly. It fringes out sometimes too. It's a fun cool lens but not really that great.

I dunno the Panasonic 20mm, and the Leica 25mm - so no comment. However I guess the near perfect (on �4/3) Yashica ML 21 (for $150 to $250) will match or beat them. And look cooler doing it too!

The Olympus 45mm gets it's ass kicked by a lot of other 45 and 50mm lenses.

I dunno the Leica 45mm macro or Olympus 75mm either but on the later I guess the FD 85/1.2 will blow it away - and a half! Also for actual macros the Leica 45mm ?? Really? Are you sure? Does it do 1:1 - with what working distance? Is it perfect at f/2.8? Is it less than $200? (What, no distance scale on a macro lens?)

But you're right. At the ultra wide end there's not so much better IQ as there is same IQ for a lot less money. By the time we hit 35mm however there is both better and cheaper offerings in MF lenses. And that advantage increases linearly with focal length.

Edited on Aug 11, 2012 at 02:25 PM · View previous versions

Aug 11, 2012 at 02:10 PM

tobicus
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p.4 #19 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

X100 for sure. It has its quirks, but I can't think of a better camera in IQ that's that small and comes with an optical viewfinder (aside from the obvious Fuji cousin).

Aug 11, 2012 at 02:16 PM

DTOB
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p.4 #20 · "Best" Mirrorless Camera with Viewfinder?

One thing everyone is forgetting or is just oblivious to is that Chuck is a photographer and not a gear hound, unlike many in this sub-forum. He cares about imagery, not pseudo-scientific breakdowns.

Aug 11, 2012 at 02:22 PM

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