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Archive 2012 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob

  
 
zalmyb
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p.3 #1 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


marti.g3 wrote:
So do you ever "socialize" without your camera ? I mean to just enjoy an event without thinking about taking photos ? Seems obsessive don't ya think ? It's like an alcoholic who can't live without taking a drink.


I do, yes, rarely. It's actually quite hard for me NOT to be thinking of photography. I'm always looking at light, appreciating it and somewhere in the back of my head thinking of settings. And when I have a camera I don't have it glued to my face. I see something I might like a photo of, I lift the camera, frame and shoot. Put the camera down, and keep on talking. But I usually leave my phone in the car or on silent. No texting, talking, surfing etc. And I'm shooting film usually so no chimping, flying through menus, deleting, uploading, showing off etc. I'm also known to take a beer with me in case the beer at the event isn't happening...

I totally agree with you about people taking photos for no reason. It's odd. In fact I never even noticed how many people are leaping into the isle to get a cellphone snap of the bride coming down, until I became serious about photography. I don't understand why they take the photos that they are really not going to be doing anything with.

And now I got to go Uncle Bob!! Peace out.



Jun 10, 2012 at 06:44 PM
D. Diggler
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p.3 #2 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


zalmyb wrote:
I am so thread hijacking here, and I'm sorry.


Not so "sorry" that you didn't do it, though.

As a matter of fact, you're not sorry AT ALL.

And once again, as is apparently standard operating procedure with you, you're satisfying your selfish desires regardless of whether it is right or wrong. Just like you do when you take your camera to PLAY at other peoples' weddings.



Jun 11, 2012 at 02:22 AM
Dawei Ye
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p.3 #3 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


Kittyk wrote:
1st bad thing: if they are in your shots, you are probably in theirs too.
2nd: Of course it is hard to guess value, without seeing main's coverage, but most probably you didn't added value to the booked photographer because you decreased value of their photos for the couple and i didnt found anything which would be so unique and overlooked by the main.
3rd: UBing is wrong, whatever justification you use.


I think you make great points in (1) and (2).

Particularly (1), you are right, me with a massive lens in the background of their shot is also stuffing up their shot

And (2), that's a very good point too, I never thought about it that way and I agree with the validity of what you have said, however at the same time, the paid photographer really should be of a standard where they deserve the $$$ they are getting - if their photos are being undermined by Uncle Bob's snapshots, we are in very dangerous territory. Their lack of skill is just as unprofessional as the Uncle Bob who undermined them.




Jun 11, 2012 at 05:11 AM
Dawei Ye
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p.3 #4 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


Thanks for the additional feedback! Some interesting views!

marti.g3 wrote:
So do you ever "socialize" without your camera ? I mean to just enjoy an event without thinking about taking photos ? Seems obsessive don't ya think ? It's like an alcoholic who can't live without taking a drink.


I understand what you men - but it's just as OCD to actively refrain from taking photos out of a sense of pro photog's honour code.

As Chuck alluded to, taking photographs is a form of enjoyment for me. Ironically, to force myself to not take photographs is actually "obsessive" and unnatural.

I accept your view, but to me, it is as strange to Uncle Bob an event, as it is to actively leave your camera at home and "take a break". I just do what is natural and I am happy with - and as long as it doesn't intrude on others, I don't think anybody cares. People are too busy having a good time! The world isn't going to end if an Uncle Bob turns up to the wedding if they stay out of the way.

Kittyk wrote:
tell that to the sad brides, who wants their day to be their day and it gets ruined only because some guests think it is about them. you are not a woman, are you?
if i would want a party for a guests and make it a guests day, i would make a party and tell them i am throwing a party for all the guests and will be watching them having fun, never mind me, the bride in the back.

wedding is a bride's day. the more distant you are from this fact, the more distant you are to (most probably
...Show more

Because the photographers in this set are friends of mine I won't go into the rationale/specifics of this case, but I've Uncle Bobbed 3 other weddings and I wanted to post what happened in those instances. What I'm going to post below is the truth, however, I don't blame you if you are sceptical over the details as it is only one side of the story.

I confess in the back of mind, I have an ulterior motive, which is that I distrust other photographers. I'm not great, but the industry in Melbourne is on average much, much worse.

I disclose this so I can be condemned for who I truly am. No I am not an annoying Uncle Bob who interferes and figuratively jerks off over useless images. But I am not totally innocent. Please damn me for what I truly am

CASE 1:
Bride saw some of my photos on facebook and wanted me to photograph her wedding. I respectfully advised against it as she was my friend, and instead. She said come anyway, even if I didn't photograh. I said I'd come along and take some background shots for her to complement what the Pro could not take. Eventually she found a very expensive photographer who prided himself on his website on using Hassy's.

On the day of the wedding, as soon as she saw me she interrupted her own preparations and went to grab a pre packaged gift for me (wine, chocolates etc.) and told me to make sure I enjoyed myself. I was very appreciative for the thought (Not surprisingly, it also turned out to be one of the best weddings I've been to.)

Photographer took some really nice photos for them during the "bridal party shots". During the ceremony, the photographer stood in the front row and all photos were from that angle. Without my photos from the back, the bride would have had no photos of:
- The guests
- A non wide angle perspective of the wedding
- The view from the back of the church

After the wedding, bride was ecstatic at the photos I gave her, because of the nature of my role, and my different style to the Hassy tog, I had no posed shots, and all were photojournalistic photos which she didn't have much of in her set. Also, a 5D2 + Canon L primes kicks a Hassy's butt during the reception speeches, cake cut etc.

Was a bit disappointed that such an expensive photographer could not get more rounded coverage, but oh well.

CASE 2:
Photographed a friend's (bride) engagement's party. Loved the shots. Didn't charge, was just a guest there and took some shots for her. Unedited, DVD, bang. She took the photos and made her own coffeebook out of them.

At actual wedding, she got sold (sucked in) on the venue's official photographer.

I attended as a guest and bought along my 5D2+35/85 only, and acted as a guest fully. Bride did not ask me to take photos, therefore I did not go out of my way to take any. I was literally an armchair snapshooter.

I observed the official photographer. was using a 5D2+24-105L+580 direct in the reception. Doesn't take a genius to work out the photos are going to suck. I took some fun shots (PJ style) and forgot about the photos for a few months.

2 months later, bride asked me if she could get a copy of the photos I took as she knew I was a keen photographer and knew that I would have brought along my camera.

B+G caught up with me for dinner, paid for my dinner just constantly thanking me for taking the photos and going on about how I had gotten all the key moments that the Pro had missed. The level of my surprise was matched only by my disgust at the Pro who had stuffed up their wedding.

---

As a result another motivation (in addition to the fun aspect as Chuck describted) of bringing my cameras to a wedding is in my arrogant belief that I can provide a "backup" function for the couple and often give even better output. Am I right or wrong? Probably both, but I stand ready to be damned for what I truly am - a concerned friend who is only trying to do what's best for his friends!



Jun 11, 2012 at 05:31 AM
Kittyk
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p.3 #5 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


Dawei, you are making good points, and you might have saved one bride's day with the snapshots, but if it is really that case, the bride just made poor decision about who she picked to photograph her wedding. The fix for that is: book a good photographer, not bad one while trying to fix it with random guest shots.

Even though i do not have very high opinion about most pro photographers, keep in mind that in 99% cases it is that guests are much worse. And they will never know if they disturb or saving the bride. They will always think they are making cool supplementary shots, but in 99% cases they disturb.
Take what you wrote from other angle: isn't the reason why the "expensive pro" wanted to "click him through" boring group shots, exactly because there were 1000 people snapping, stealing eye contact and disturbing his ideas?

Conspiracy Keanu: what if most pro photographers are that "bad", because nobody value their work anymore, so they just pass through the day to get paycheck and then laughing all the way to the bank?

Also you said it would not be professional to get disturbed by the uncle bobs. We are creative people, we work with head. When we are demotivated, sad, or even disgusted, we CANNOT do our work good. It have nothing with being professional. The Pro in us, tries, the artist in us fails.

I've seen priest leaving church angry when people started snapping after he said no photos. He can, we not, but we are allowed to take subpar photos when everybody ignores us or work AGAINST us.

i had a dude with camera on the wedding telling the couple that i dont understand photography and that i am using amateur equipment (really). Because i told him that i do not use large format camera (he was referring to my D800 which in my words was small format camera). I said i have MF in the truck but not going to use it today.

Do you think that i can then take a good snapshot of this idiot when he came later to me to get some shots of him and his wife with his D90? I told him that i am amateur and sent him to photobooth. Is it professional? No, but my couple booked artist, not service provider, and they know it.

In another case, one UB started to organize and photograph group shots. Then came to me saying how cool he was and why i didn't photograph it too. (!)
And there are 100s of cases. People are disrespectful or pure ignorant WAY more often then saving bride's day from bad photographer.

you also said, that 24-105 with direct flash makes sure, the photos will be bad. You can never say that. Would you said that photos would be bad if he used film leica with 50/f3.5 and onboard small flash for eye catch? They probably was bad, but gear have nothing to do with photos in general.




Jun 11, 2012 at 05:43 AM
canerino
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p.3 #6 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


Kittyk wrote:
tell that to the sad brides, who wants their day to be their day and it gets ruined only because some guests think it is about them. you are not a woman, are you?
if i would want a party for a guests and make it a guests day, i would make a party and tell them i am throwing a party for all the guests and will be watching them having fun, never mind me, the bride in the back.

wedding is a bride's day. the more distant you are from this fact, the more distant you are to (most probably
...Show more


i speak to brides at consults about it 'being their day' vs. 'being everyone's day'. its one of the topics i discuss to help me decide if i want to take on the client. if i bride responds that she wants the day to be all about her, it leads me to another line of conversation that will most likely result in me recommending someone else as their wedding photographer.

the large majority of my clients do not want the day to be about them. in fact, one of the commonalities that my brides seem to have is that they do not like getting their picture taken.

to each their own, i guess.



Jun 11, 2012 at 08:26 AM
Kittyk
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p.3 #7 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


canerino wrote:
i speak to brides at consults about it 'being their day' vs. 'being everyone's day'. its one of the topics i discuss to help me decide if i want to take on the client. if i bride responds that she wants the day to be all about her, it leads me to another line of conversation that will most likely result in me recommending someone else as their wedding photographer.

the large majority of my clients do not want the day to be about them. in fact, one of the commonalities that my brides seem to have is that they
...Show more

I don't think many, especially women, especially brides, will openly say.they want it to be about them, especially to photographer who they meet for the first time.
Wedding is very huge, life changing, traditionally emotional and romantic event. While no two girls are same, there are more women saying something else then what they really want, then those really wanting it to be one big party with people snapping around and ignoring their soap bubbles and flower leaves and welcoming them with awesome iphones in the hand.
Disclaimer, i am romantic, old-school-rised woman, so i am not neutral to the topic.

And you can be damn sure that when the priests leaves disgusted church, after saying "you, in front of 50 cameras taking this woman to be your... fuck....", then even most modern hard core party woman would break.



Jun 11, 2012 at 08:48 AM
marti.g3
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p.3 #8 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


Dawei Ye wrote:
Thanks for the additional feedback! Some interesting views!

I understand what you men - but it's just as OCD to actively refrain from taking photos out of a sense of pro photog's honour code.

As Chuck alluded to, taking photographs is a form of enjoyment for me. Ironically, to force myself to not take photographs is actually "obsessive" and unnatural.

I accept your view, but to me, it is as strange to Uncle Bob an event, as it is to actively leave your camera at home and "take a break". I just do what is natural and I am happy with
...Show more

I see....so you ARE a legend in your own mind....whatever works for ya....need another mirror ?



Jun 11, 2012 at 08:57 AM
canerino
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p.3 #9 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


Kittyk wrote:
I don't think many, especially women, especially brides, will openly say.they want it to be about them, especially to photographer who they meet for the first time.




i dont need many....just 12 - 15 a year.



Jun 11, 2012 at 09:04 AM
marti.g3
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p.3 #10 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


Was shooting a wedding and was setting up my b/g in front of these amazing church doors and facade.....so I walk back to my "spot", kneel down and start taking my shots.........unbeknown to me, an uncle had gotten directly behind me, with his camera over my head.........so after I get my shots, I get up and BAM, my head collides with his camera........banging the camera back into his face...........

He yells loudly " Hey, watch what YOU'RE doing"..........so i turn around rubbing my head and tell him " Excuse me, im working here and YOU hurt my head with your camera"........."Well who the hell are you"........" Im the paid photographer they hired"............" I dont care, im their uncle"................

Photographing a wedding in a church......smack dab in the middle of the ceremony, an uncle walks up on the altar and starts taking photos, then someone else joins him, then another until there were FIVE uncle bobs on the altar...........so needless to say I just shot my photos.........and they were in all of the photos.............so the couple kiss, are walking down the aisle and lo and behold, here comes uncle bob again walking backwards down the entire aisle taking photos of them, blocking everyone's view............so im standing there towards the back of the aisle where i normally stand.....uncle bob continues to walk backwards not caring or watching where he's going and whoops, he somehow "trips" and falls backwards........so I step over him, take two shots then move out of the way........

Shooting an outdoor wedding when uncle bob gets out of his seat, stands in the middle of the aisle with his camera is blasting away.....continues to stay there blocking everything..........so I take some shots of him blocking everything for proof later on down the road...........

In both cases the bride asked me to "removed" the persons............"sure, it's xxxxx per hour to do that"........." uhhhh, forget it"...

And those are the uncle bobs that i've encountered.........and that's just a couple of examples...........want more........i've got many........



Jun 11, 2012 at 09:08 AM
marti.g3
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p.3 #11 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


canerino wrote:
i dont need many....just 12 - 15 a year.


You're a part timer, right ?



Jun 11, 2012 at 09:10 AM
Kittyk
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p.3 #12 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


canerino wrote:
i dont need many....just 12 - 15 a year.


or few bride's maid crotch shots during "first meet", mixed with few FOBs with cameras who then ask bride to not buy a book from you because there are little shots of him, mixed with few crying brides which's ceremony run too fast and too generic, because it was one big photo event of "nothing happening" to cure you out :-)



Jun 11, 2012 at 09:51 AM
zalmyb
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p.3 #13 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


Quite a bit of negativity going on here.

There seems to be two main arguments about why I shouldn't bring a camera to a wedding.

1. Because uncle bobs ruin shots for the main photographer. While this very well may be true it's a ridiculous argument. Because some people ruin photos therefore "I" shouldn't bring a camera?! That's like saying some people get obnoxiously drunk at a wedding therefore I shouldn't have a beer. If I'm not getting in the way at all, then this doesn't apply.

2. Because I should just enjoy the wedding and be sidetracked by taking photos. I see this argument as having a little more validity, but in some cases (as in mine) I enjoy the actual wedding more when I have a camera.

Maybe we should be making a difference between being an "uncle bob", I.e. someone who wants to run around taking the same type of photos that the pro would be taking (thereby not enjoying the actual wedding, and quite possibly getting in the way, and getting on the brides nerves), and someone bringing a camera to take some shot here and there if he finds something interesting.

I brought two cameras last night, though for most of the night they were in a bag under my table. Snapped around 30 photos, mostly of friends, and had a few very nice conversations brought on by the twin lens I had over my shoulder. In fact the father of the groom had an M6 with a 50 summilux that he was shooting within a bit by the reception and we had a really nice conversation about old cameras, lenses, film, and I got to play around with his Leica, something that I've wanted to do for a while. Am I evil? Did I harm anyone? Was the wedding worse off for me having brought my camera. I really really don't think so.


And kitty, have you seen Chucks wedding work? It would be very hard to see a bride being unhappy with how the party or the shots came out.



Jun 11, 2012 at 10:37 AM
canerino
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p.3 #14 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


marti.g3 wrote:
You're a part timer, right ?



yep.



Jun 11, 2012 at 10:40 AM
canerino
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p.3 #15 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


Kittyk wrote:
or few bride's maid crotch shots during "first meet", mixed with few FOBs with cameras who then ask bride to not buy a book from you because there are little shots of him, mixed with few crying brides which's ceremony run too fast and too generic, because it was one big photo event of "nothing happening" to cure you out :-)



i just think we have two entirely different views on a wedding day, which is very cool. i think it would take an awful lot for a guest with a camera to get to me...an awful lot.



Jun 11, 2012 at 10:47 AM
Kittyk
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p.3 #16 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


canerino wrote:
i just think we have two entirely different views on a wedding day, which is very cool. i think it would take an awful lot for a guest with a camera to get to me...an awful lot.


i tend to go through the wedding day side by side with the bride. i cannot be the cool phlegmatic chick with camera who takes cool snaps of cool people taking snaps, while we all smile and ignore the bride trying to enjoy HER day.
or it shows your strong personality if you can go through such pain without affecting it you. I am not, i am way too weak, i am not professional photographer by any business mean, i cry more often then brides them self and every wedding is for me very very important to the point that i try to make it perfect. Though my couples tends to love me, i am getting more presents from them after wedding then even hubby does and my average wedding is 176,1% of booked price, while hubby's 130,6%. When i take out the spontaneous coverage extensions and post sales, my couples in average pay 22% of tips after wedding together with last payment. My best friend is 2009 bride and 6 times last year our 2008-2010 couples watched for our kids when i had nobody to help me out, yesterday we as whole family were on 2010 bride's bday party, and i can go on. So, you guessed, i don't want to change, even if it would sure mean simpler life and easier work for me



Jun 11, 2012 at 11:00 AM
maxwell1295
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p.3 #17 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


Like I said on FB, Bob's are part of the territory these days. As time goes on there will be more and more of them. Telling people not to bring cameras is futile so finding ways to deal with the Bob's and Bobette's of the world is a skill we're all going to need. You can kill them with kindness or with a skillfully placed elbow to the ribs. Here's an example where I just moved around and blocked Bob (actually TWO Bob's)while getting the shot.

http://www.alanabramsphotography.com/images/weddings/karen_matt/karen_matt_460.jpg

http://www.alanabramsphotography.com/images/weddings/karen_matt/fb/karen_matt_468.jpg



Jun 11, 2012 at 11:11 AM
maxwell1295
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p.3 #18 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


BTW, I'm going to germany in october just so I can Uncle Bob one of Kitty's weddings.



Jun 11, 2012 at 11:12 AM
monie2078
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p.3 #19 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


... Because its THEIR day,I shouldn't take my camera to capture images of my good friends' most important day? Wouldn't I take my camera to their birthday party or baby shower? Wouldn't I take my camera to their child's communion? I mean, as long as I don't get in the way of the hired photographer, WHAT is the problem exactly? Please, think very carefully about that answer... Am I an inconvenience to YOU, or do you just not like the idea that other people are there taking pictures? If its truly about the bride and groom, shouldn't your focus be on them? And if I'm not in your way or your shots, what's your issue?

How about the weddings where the bride and groom put a disposable camera on every table at the receptioin, so as to get different viewpoints of the day? Would you walk around scowling at everyone, then?

I'm not a professional photographer, and I don't do weddings, but I think some of you guys need to tone the egos down a bit. I'm sorry, but you're all always talking about geting paid your "worth".. Well, its your job to get the images DESPITE the distractions. Besides the gear, the years of experience, and the technical knowledge, shouldn't that be something else that sets you apart from the standard 'uncle bob'? Your ability to adapt, be flexible, and work around regular obstacles? I mean, its a celebration and a gathering; what would be ideal? For everyone to sit still, or for everyone to actually be themselves and celebrate the day WITH their friends?

I have never understood the "enjoy the day and leave the camera at home" logic. That only applies if photography is work, or if the 'uncle bob' is looking for some kind of financial gain (pad his portfolio or something) from the images shot.

Let's all not lose sight of what cameras REALLY are... Equipment to memorialize certain events/moments, and I don't know about you, but a good friend's wedding is one I'd like memories/keepsakes of. Especially since being the fact that we're "good friends", I'd probably know most people at the wedding.

I wouldn't take my camera to every single wedding I attend. I would however take my camera to my good friend's wedding. I'm sorry, if I sound a tad... confrontational. Its truly not my intention...



Jun 11, 2012 at 11:38 AM
Kittyk
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p.3 #20 · C&C: Friend's wedding as an Uncle Bob


Alan, that is horrible. Yea, i can move around and compromise my shots, getting worse light and what not, or just fusrohda them away. If my note during meeting makes little difference, i will keep saying it. nobody can change my mind. I will die trying.


maxwell1295 wrote:
BTW, I'm going to germany in october just so I can Uncle Bob one of Kitty's weddings.


hahaha, watch your feet, i can be clumsy with high heels when stepping on UB's feet.



Jun 11, 2012 at 11:47 AM
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