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Archive 2012 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?

  
 
Gunzorro
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p.1 #1 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


I just bought a lovely older Leica lens, and I'm looking for some knowledgeable folks to answer a couple questions. I hope the lens is adaptable to digital bodies, as I'm very impressed by its condition. The lens glass is clear of marks, coated, super-smooth in operation of focus and aperture, and has a nearly round aperture (15-blade?). Even though it is f/4, it should take some nice pictures (MFD just under 1m).

My questions are:
1) What are the correct adapters to be able to mount to M4/3? Does it need to be done in stages, or will the one I ordered work?

2) Is this lens adaptable to EOS mount, or is it similar to Leica M mount, and not able to focus at infinity?

Thanks for the help.



Edited on May 14, 2012 at 02:57 PM · View previous versions



May 12, 2012 at 05:01 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #2 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


Gunzorro wrote:
2) Is this lens adaptable to EOS mount, or is it similar to Leica M mount, and not able to focus at infinity?


Hi Jim,

It's similar to the LM situation. You can easily mount it on a M4/3 body, with "infinity focus", but you can only use it for macro work on an EOS body - no infinity.... Well, infinity is always out there, but you can't take a photo of it with an LM lens on an EOS body, unless you're a big MIB fan.

It all comes down to the 'register', which is the distance from the lens mount to the camera sensor. In the old days, this was known as the 'film to flange' distance, whatever those obscure terms mean.

The M4/3 register is 20.0mm, while the LM register is 28.0mm. This means that the LM to M4/3 adapter has to mount the LM lens 8.0mm away from the front of the M4/3 body. A simple mechanical adapter can do this. Of course, simple isn't always sufficient. The precision of adapter geometry is important, especially for wide angle lenses. You get what you pay for.

The EOS register is 44.0mm. That means you would have to insert the LM lens 44mm - 28mm = 16mm inside of the EOS mount to "acheive infinity focus". It is possible to get adapters for mis-matched registers, which use optics to compensate for this problem, but they invariably reduce IQ, and so negate the Alt advantage.

EOS (and Sony Alpha) have distinct advantages for using "35mm" Alt lenses, because their registers are shorter than all (or most of) the usual suspects; including, Nikon F, Contax C/Y, Pentax K and M42, Olympus OM, and some others. All of the "35mm" or "Full Frame" DSLR bodies can use medium format lenses, which have much longer registers. I prefer Mamiya M645 lenses, but that's a different story.

I can fix you up with a ton of info on this stuff, if you want.

Cheers, Jim

P.S. I just noticed that you have a Leica Thread Mount (LTM) lens, aka M39. The image of your adapter clued me in to this. The LTM register is 28.8mm, which means you have a whole 0.8mm for the LTM to LM adapter. No worries though, your new M39 to M4/3 adapter should do the trick.



May 12, 2012 at 05:35 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #3 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


Oh Jinx!

I claim "mount to sensor", MTS, as the contemporary alternative to "film to flange" (FTF, F2F).

Score!



May 12, 2012 at 05:45 PM
Gunzorro
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p.1 #4 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


Thanks Jim! That makes a lot of sense.

So, it seems I have the right adapter coming, and could even use this lens on Nex with proper adapter.

I did a little experiment while you were posting. I simply put my 5D2 in LV, and held the lens into the body with my hand wrapped around it until some sort of focus was achieved. Very revealing to try. Of course, the mirror box wasn't light sealed, so lots of light leakage, but surprisingly, here are the pictures with just a bit of LR PP.

Thanks again, and more info is always welcome. JimToo

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/gunzorro/IMG_8121.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/gunzorro/IMG_8122.jpg



May 12, 2012 at 05:59 PM
freaklikeme
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p.1 #5 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


Nice lens, Gunzorro. I picked up a 50 Summitar last weekend and the guy who sold it to me mentioned that I should use caution when cleaning lenses of this vintage because the coatings are very soft. Just something to keep in mind.


May 12, 2012 at 06:04 PM
Gunzorro
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p.1 #6 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


Just ordered a cheap (metal) M39/L39 to EOS adapter for $5 with free shipping from HK. I've had good luck with these for M42 and other no-AF-confirm adapters. Give it a try for close up bokeh and see what happens.

freaklikeme -- Thanks for the tip. Luckily, this one is pristine on the glass and needs no cleaning inside or out, at least not yet. Came with a perfect little blue velvet lined leather case too. What are you going to put your 50mm on?



May 12, 2012 at 06:16 PM
rico
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p.1 #7 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


According to Erwin Puts, the optical design of the Elmar 90 was unchanged for three decades (1930-1964)! Your copy is dated 1946 and, if actually coated, must have returned to the factory. The head can unscrew and be remounted in Visoflex fashion onto the SLR/DSLR of your choice without loss of infinity focus. I have three Elmars 90, and this is my customary usage - not on my Leica M.


May 13, 2012 at 12:36 AM
mcbroomf
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p.1 #8 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


If adapting to NEX then I can recommend the use of a Leica M to NEX Hawks Helicoid adapter. This has a thin helicoil inside that allows to you rack the lens out a few mm to get closer focus. It's more effective for short FL lenses. If you go this route you'll need an LTM-M adapter before the Hawks.

Nothing like this exists for m4/3 as yet.

Mike



May 13, 2012 at 03:11 AM
Gunzorro
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p.1 #9 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


rico -- That is terrific news about the "head" unscrewing. I knew that "extra" knurled ring must be for something! Just did it, and it's wonderful. So, what are the parts I need to order to mount this section to a focusing adapter for the EOS infinity focus?

Are you sure Leica didn't coat lenses pre-war? I might be wrong, but IIRC, I've had a number of German folding cameras with Zeiss (Ikonta B, I think), Voigtlander (Color Skopar on Bessa I?) that were coated pre-WWII. Maybe they were post-war?

Anyway, it's a nice looking lens I'd like to try. Do you have any handy photos from your versions?

Mike -- Thanks for your info.



May 13, 2012 at 04:24 PM
rico
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p.1 #10 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


Gunzorro wrote:
Are you sure Leica didn't coat lenses pre-war? I might be wrong, but IIRC, I've had a number of German folding cameras with Zeiss (Ikonta B, I think), Voigtlander (Color Skopar on Bessa I?) that were coated pre-WWII. Maybe they were post-war?

Anyway, it's a nice looking lens I'd like to try. Do you have any handy photos from your versions?

While antireflective coating was invented in 1935 by CZ, the process was limited to military issue. I don't think Leica started until after the war and, even then, the coatings were notoriously soft (never clean your Elmar ). Factory refurbishment was good business for Leitz, and that included coating older lenses and upgrading cameras.

Link to my 2007 FM writeup on Elmar 90 usage on DSLR can be found below. Despite the vintage of your lens, often called the "prewar thin", the procedure and parts list will be the same. I have a late rigid 4-element Elmar (same formula as yours), but generally use the newer 3-element for extra punch. Your lens should be perfect for portrait, and for spiffy flare effects in harsh light. You can't fake this stuff in post.

Ref:
FM Alt Archive 2007 · A Different Kind of 90mm



May 14, 2012 at 01:14 AM
freaklikeme
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p.1 #11 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


Gunzorro wrote:
freaklikeme -- Thanks for the tip. Luckily, this one is pristine on the glass and needs no cleaning inside or out, at least not yet. Came with a perfect little blue velvet lined leather case too. What are you going to put your 50mm on?


Anytime, G. I picked up the 50 for the NEX-7, on which it performs beautifully (bokeh can be a little funky, thought).

To your conversion quandary, a friend of mine has a like vintage Elmarit, which is the same design (I think they even use the same helicoid) he uses on a 5D with his own frankenlens mount made from a an M42 to M42 helicoid (I think it's made by RainbowImaging) and an M42 to EOS adapter. I think he tried using an M39 to M42 adapter for the connection to the lens head, but ended up having the part machined so he could just screw the lens head on when he wanted to shoot it on the 5D and then back on the original helicoid when he used his RF. I can get the full details from him if you're interested.



May 14, 2012 at 10:57 AM
Gunzorro
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p.1 #12 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


freaklikeme -- Thanks. I wouldn't mind learning more about his custom conversion, but it sounds like more than I want to get into. Still, every bit of knowledge helps.


May 14, 2012 at 11:15 AM
Gunzorro
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p.1 #13 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


In my crazy blood-in-the-water excitment, I've now ordered a similar design Leica 135/4.5 Hektor in the M bayonet mount. So, a whole new range of issues, but possibly the same helicoid tube will work with an additional extention tube (which I already own). I ordered another adapter for M4/3, hoping that it will at least work on that until I can get it rolling with the DSLRs -- although 270mm equivalent isn't my first choice of focal length.

I figure any Leica lens for around $100 is a no-lose situation, even ancient slow lenses.

********
PS -- Uh-oh, I see I've been going down the wrong track for fittings to EOS. I didn't realize that the head has differernt thread size than the M39 focusing body. (Anyone know the thread size on the head?)

So, I really may need a Leica-style focusing helicoid mount to attact to the solid M39 to EOS base -- just as rico shows. Complicated!



May 14, 2012 at 02:57 PM
rico
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p.1 #14 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


I may be accused of feeding the madness, but here goes. To use on a DSLR, Hektor 135 needs the "universal" focussing mount OTZFO/16464 which is analogous to OUAGO for Elmar 90. Because Hektor is a long (long) lens, it also needs extension tube 16472/OTSRO to reach focus at infinity and closer: one is on eBay (120844785751). Both items are quite available, and should together amount to $70 or so. OTZFO is usable directly with Tele-Elmar 135 (a great lens), Elmar 65 and Elmarit 90 v1. Here's OTZFO+TE135 as mounted on 1Ds, taken today:



Hektor will be low-tech in comparison, but still fun to use.



May 15, 2012 at 04:53 AM
Gunzorro
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p.1 #15 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


rico -- Thank for feeding the beast!

It's funny how complex the Leica system is with its part numbers and many permutations of design and function. I can see this being addictive!

What I've learned so far: For the the 90mm lens, I need the after market base and the Leica focusing helicoid to mount the lens head into. For the 135mm, I need the Leica focusing helicoid and Leica extension tube. Good so far?

But both lenses should work on the M4/3 with just a simple Leica M39 to M4/3 adapter, right? Granted, this pushes the lenses into the super-telephoto range for that sensor/format, losing much/most of the Leica charm and rendering on FF 35mm format.

I'm so trying to wrap my head around these parts and functions! I'm sure that once I get one assembled, it will seem more practical and sensible. You're examples photos of the lens attached to the 1Ds are terrific and beautiful cyborg-like concoctions I find hard to resist.

BTW -- Great photo of the flowers -- more examples are welcome.



May 15, 2012 at 10:06 AM
freaklikeme
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p.1 #16 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


Gunzorro wrote:
PS -- Uh-oh, I see I've been going down the wrong track for fittings to EOS. I didn't realize that the head has differernt thread size than the M39 focusing body. (Anyone know the thread size on the head?)


Yes, that was the part my buddy had to have machined. I sent an e-mail to him last night but haven't heard back from him yet.

The Leica helicoids aren't too expensive and are pretty easy to find. My friend went with the custom option so he could get macro focusing without tubes. But I remember him saying it would've been cheaper and easier to live with the 1m MFD and just use tubes.



May 15, 2012 at 10:18 AM
rico
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p.1 #17 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


Gunzorro wrote:
It's funny how complex the Leica system is with its part numbers and many permutations of design and function. I can see this being addictive!

The Golden Age of Leitz was the mid '60s, with all cylinders firing and the Japanese SLR threat not yet realized. The company had an organic mix of optics, cameras, binoculars, and microscopes. Personally, I think the most impressive department was the machine shop to support these product lines. The fit-and-finish of metal parts and assemblies (like helicals) is just amazing. The Visoflex system alone is strewn with crazy options and subfamilies like the endoscope. Of course, every part needs a code so you can order it. Extension tubes for your Elmar are called OTQNO (I have three of them).

I think you have the DSLR side down. Can't help with µ4/3 issues, but lens performance will be stressed.



May 16, 2012 at 02:01 AM
JimBuchanan
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p.1 #18 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


I was going to mention the 16464 OTZFO, but Rico has detailed it along with other options. The 16464 OTZFO is a focusing helical that turns in the proper direction toward infinity and has female M39 threads. It should allow the use of a suitable lens head and a Leica M to EOS adapter found on ebay. The Leica M to EOS adapter effectively takes the optical path of the Visoflex module, if that is clear.


May 16, 2012 at 11:05 PM
rico
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p.1 #19 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


JimBuchanan wrote:
The 16464 OTZFO is a focusing helical that turns in the proper direction toward infinity and has female M39 threads.

Small corrections: OTZFO has an M bayonet on the back end to connect with Visoflex mirror boxes (OTDYM et al). The front end has a nested internal thread of about 33mm dia and with slightly finer pitch than M39.



May 17, 2012 at 01:20 AM
Gunzorro
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p.1 #20 · Leica LTM and M lenses -- mounting to M4/3 or EOS?


Getting close to a proper lens! Today the simple adapter arrived to mount the 90mm directly to the EOS 5D2. This makes for a limited macro lens, but, still, it's images. At least I can get an impression of the lens quality -- sharpness is excellent, but flares badly in strong lighting. The color seems very nice, and the OOF seem appealing.

I still need the piece to use with the Leice helecoid for infinity focus on the DSLRs, and the simple adapters to use both lenses on the M4/3.

Getting there!

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/gunzorro/IMG_8157.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/gunzorro/IMG_8176.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/gunzorro/IMG_8178.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c80/gunzorro/IMG_8188.jpg



May 23, 2012 at 07:04 PM
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