fredmiranda.com
Login

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
FM Forum Rules
Wedding Resource List
  

FM Forums | Wedding Photographer | Join Upload & Sell

1       2              end
  

Archive 2012 · Second shooter, duties for pay

  
 
Ian Ivey
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #1 · Second shooter, duties for pay


She wasn't asking for MORE money, she was trying to dictate WHICH photos commanded main pay and which ones commanded second pay.

That is probably the oddest part of the whole experience. She wasn't trying to negotiate her overall fee; she wanted to discuss certain images of particular merit (in her view) as being worth ... what, a bonus? Interesting.

I've seen that time and time again over the past 20 years. Train someone, they get a big head and fly the coop. Nothing wrong with going out on their own, it's the "big head" that irks me.

There's nothing wrong with recognizing that you've improved as a second and asking for a raise for the next round, either. She just came to that realization too late, or else lacks the skill to negotiate confidently. She should have waited until next time you called her, and brought a few images to your attention as evidence of her increased value to you when asking for a raise.

The approach she took was inappropriate. But mostly it was funny -- thanks for sharing the story.



May 09, 2012 at 03:19 PM
swoop
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #2 · Second shooter, duties for pay


marti.g3 wrote:
She never carried one bit of gear ever, not even my bottle of water. She came to me after I put out an advertisement. She had some experience, but she wasn't the greatest. I taught her posing, all of the timeline photos of the day, the "money" shots as us old timers called them.

She was the quiet, shy type who was more content to be in the background having NO people contact. Her work was acceptable. Not great, She was dependable, local and had her own acceptable gear. I have other seconds who have shot with me for over
...Show more

I think you'd be a lot happier if you added a non-compete clause to your contract for 2nd shooters if you do have one. Especially if you're working with someone regularly who is local and has ambitions to be a pro and would likely be in your market. And it seems like this is happening to you a lot and likely will continue to happen as everyone with a DSLR and a dream wants to be a pro photographer. Something along the lines of 12-24 months they agree not to work as an independent wedding photographer. And the thing about non-competes is they can be self-employed/freelance/contract, they don't have to be a full time employee.

I've 2nd shot for 2 different photographers that didn't allow me to use the images for my portfolio. The first made me use his cards. THe 2nd had me sign a contract stating I couldn't use images for my portfolio. A 3rd photographer made me sign a contract that simply stated I'd dress and behave appropriately and hand over images at the end of the day and that any images I used on my website had to state I was a 2nd shooter for her. I've only signed a non-compete with one company who I give photo tours with. It's like a walking tour with basic photography instruction. The catch is I have another job where I teach photo workshops. And the non-compete says specifically that I can't work as a tour guide, not a photo instructor.



May 09, 2012 at 03:44 PM
Micky Bill
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #3 · Second shooter, duties for pay


I don't think very many non compete clauses would hold up in court, especially if the agreemnt was between an employer/ photographer and a freelance assitant, second shooter. It's more of way to intimidate or scare former "employees". If the employer offers it and the "employee" is naive enough to sign then it might work, after all people sign all sorts of stuff that isn't in their best interest.



May 09, 2012 at 07:23 PM
photoflurry
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #4 · Second shooter, duties for pay


I'm enjoying (and getting a lot out of) this thread, and hearing from both sides of this issue. So now, I'd actually appreciate and welcome your collective thoughts/input on my current dilemma. Last year, I struck up a conversation with the photographer at a wedding where I was in attendance (during some downtime, of course), and we ended up exchanging contact information. A few weeks later, she called and asked me to be her permanent assistant/2nd shooter. I've had my own photography business for 4 years now, the first 3 being solely in real estate photography and some commercial. Just about a year ago, I branched out into portraiture - families, couples, children, babies, maternity. I have no aspiration or desire to become a wedding photographer myself - just not up for all the work, stress - you know :o) Anyway - I was delighted at her offer, and accepted. She said we'd have a few training sessions, and while I was "in training" my pay would be $100 per wedding, then after that $250 per. At the time it seemed agreeable. Then literally 1 week after that, before we had met for any training at all, she called me desperate for a 2nd shooter at a wedding 2 1/2 hours away. She said I'd need to rent a 70-200 lens (which I did rent from a local camera shop, at a cost of a whopping $70); and also would need lots of extra batteries for my flash and camera. So I picked those up too. So we did the wedding - put in a literal 15 hour day, what with the driving. I didn't even mind the $100. Felt I got good experience and photos. She even told me later that she usually expects to only get about 40-45 usable photos from her 2nd shooter, but she actually used 70 from mine! So I felt great about that. Since then We've had 3 training sessions, and I was given my schedule. Shortly thereafter, she canceled me for one of them, because she had a friend in town who was going to work with her on it. So that was fine, I guess. Our next one was scheduled for this weekend (5/19). With that in mind, I schedule my much-needed lasek eye surgery for last Thursday, figuring 9 days of recovery would be plenty. THEN literally on Thursday night, she called me desperate again, and asked me to do a wedding with her that weekend. It ended up being a very high-end wedding, an hour and a half away, and another 15 hour day. I even actually got the crucial shot of the couple's first kiss, which she inadvertently missed. I still got $100. :o(

I really do like this woman, we get along great, and I'm learning sooo much. I truly want to keep doing this - but it's almost like I literally "cannot afford to!" I think it would be different if I were planning on doing this as a main shooter myself some day-I'd see it as gaining invaluable experience and training, as well as an investment in my own future success as a wedding photographer. But I really truly do not want to. Which is something she has often remarked on, in the sense of why it makes me "the perfect 2nd shooter." i.e., I'll not leave her and go out on my own, as several of her previous 2nd's have.

Anyway - I guess I'd just like to know if I'm seeing this all wrong, and should just deal with it. Meanwhile, we have a wedding this weekend that's 2 1/2 hours away. Oh-I forgot to mention that I live 45 minutes south of her, and most of her weddings are located in her own area or even further north. So I'm always travelling at least 45 minutes more than she is just to get to the venue.

One other thing is that I'm thinking that I'd be willing to take the low-ish pay rate if perhaps I didn't have to literally be there from start to finish . . . ? I mean if I was truly only there for the ceremony and a few key moments, the pay would certainly be fair. But I just don't know if I can, or even want, to spend 15+ hours every Saturday working my butt off, for $100, and with the hopes of some day getting $250.

I know I need to communicate with her to find out when or how she'll decide to start paying me the $250 rate. But I'm really not good at confrontation :o(

Well anyway, go ahead. Let me have it. Tell me what you think, or what I need to hear. And I'll try and take it gracefully and appreciatively - truly. Thanks again.



May 14, 2012 at 01:59 PM
cbres00
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #5 · Second shooter, duties for pay


Photoflurry, you said you don't want to get into weddings but you're second shooting them. Moreover, you are being paid peanuts for what you do. I understand you're in the 'training' phase, but $100 for 15 hours of work?

I think the question really needs to be directed back at you: is this a good use of your time in light of what you are getting paid? Could you make $250 for a family session or two on a Saturday, which would be a much better investment for YOUR business?

One more issue: if she's calling you at the last minute, that is a pattern that is likely not going to go away. Just having to say no to these impromptu requests can cause unnecessary strain on your professional relationship.



May 14, 2012 at 02:16 PM
swoop
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #6 · Second shooter, duties for pay


photoflurry wrote:
Well anyway, go ahead. Let me have it. Tell me what you think, or what I need to hear. And I'll try and take it gracefully and appreciatively - truly. Thanks again.


You really need to just tell her what you feel your time is worth. Until you speak up she's going to think you're ok with it. And if she's really that far away that it's burdensome, you need to find someone closer to work with. It's like any other job where you have to commute, you want to work there, you wake up earlier in the morning. You can also ask her for mileage but I doubt she'll cave.



May 14, 2012 at 02:22 PM
mjoshi
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #7 · Second shooter, duties for pay


Dave_EP wrote:
When I second shoot for people we agree a figure for my "time". When I'm there I will shoot as much or as little as I'm required to shoot, and if I need to pose people that's part of the job and doesn't require more pay. My goal as a second is the same as primary - shoot the very best I possibly can to produce the best images for the couple on the day. End of story.

I'm even happy to do the posing while the primary shoots. Often the assistant sees things that need fixing that the primary doesn't
...Show more
+1



May 14, 2012 at 02:28 PM
photoflurry
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #8 · Second shooter, duties for pay


Thank you swoop and cbres00. You are both right and I appreciate the reality check. I feel like I *do* want to continue working as 2nd shooter, along with my own regular business, just because it's so interesting and offers opportunity for learning to shoot under so many different and unusual circumstances. And certainly that benefits me in my other areas of photography. But you do make a valid point, cbres00 - it's not the best use of my own time, nor does it advance my own business. (Although, at least I have learned some really helpful and practical things that will carry over into my own preferred areas!)

I think I really just wanted to know if I was being unreasonable, self-serving, or simply am not appreciating the whole concept of main shooter/2nd shooter. I really am new to this world of weddings. Guess I'll have a heart-to-heart with my "boss" and see if we can come to a more mutually satisfactory agreement. And if you were wondering, NO, there is no signed contract or agreement of any form. So at least I didn't legally agree to this whole thing or something - ha!



May 14, 2012 at 02:34 PM
cbres00
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #9 · Second shooter, duties for pay


I certainly appreciate the value of strengthening your shooting skills! It comes down to how you want to invest your resources. You can always make more money; you can't make more time.


May 14, 2012 at 04:36 PM
photoflurry
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.3 #10 · Second shooter, duties for pay


Well said, cbres00. Thank you.


May 14, 2012 at 04:37 PM
1       2              end




FM Forums | Wedding Photographer | Join Upload & Sell

1       2              end
    
 

Welcome back
Log in to your account