I think you jumped to conclusions. I said failure to set expectations was one possibility, and did not assume that was the case.
It's true that people often think they have been clear about expectations when they have not in fact achieved mutual understanding. But I didn't assume that was true of you, and said so.
It's the internet; there are going to be assumptions and misunderstandings. Sorry in advance
Btw, if you wanted us to simply commiserate with you, OP: you're better off without her. She, after all, proved expendable to you.
Dave_EP wrote:
When I second shoot for people we agree a figure for my "time". When I'm there I will shoot as much or as little as I'm required to shoot, and if I need to pose people that's part of the job and doesn't require more pay. My goal as a second is the same as primary - shoot the very best I possibly can to produce the best images for the couple on the day. End of story.
I'm even happy to do the posing while the primary shoots. Often the assistant sees things that need fixing that the primary doesn't because they are focused (no pun intended) on the shot....Show more →
I totally agree with this.
I only bring up the "expectations" point out of giving this person the benefit of the doubt and playing a little devil's advocate. I try to operate on the premiss that if I've worked with someone more than once, then we probably have a pretty decent working relationship and have a pretty good understanding of what is expected from both sides. It defies simple logic that she would suddenly out of the blue "insist" she get more money for certain portions of the day. Perhaps the best explanation is that a proverbial bug crawled up her backside. Considering the time and money already invested in this person, maybe just maybe it would be worth it to try and salvage your investment. At the very least, you will know in your heart of hearts that cutting her loose was the right thing to do and you will be armed with the knowledge and experience necessary to help prevent this from happening again.
Sounds like a mis-understanding with her or you didn't do your homework on the right second shooter. Would you trust her to shoot the entire wedding on her own if you got sick? If not, you took a risk by having the wrong second shooter. Pay a second shooter what you'd expect to be paid. Have the understanding of duties up front--which for me is do what is needed in a supportive way for the team - and receive good pay for the time invested
MAC wrote:
Sounds like a mis-understanding with her or you didn't do your homework on the right second shooter. Would you trust her to shoot the entire wedding on her own if you got sick? If not, you took a risk by having the wrong second shooter. Pay a second shooter what you'd expect to be paid. Have the understanding of duties up front--which for me is do what is needed in a supportive way for the team - and receive good pay for the time invested
Uh nooooo, there was no misunderstanding. It wasn't her first gig. She just decided she wanted to change her pay for the same things that she was doing before as agreed upon.
Using a second shooter is solely the responsibility of the business owner BASED on the business model and experience and talent of the second. I would not hire seconds who required pay that was not inline with my pricing. Hence, if they are that good, I don't hire them.
Not all of us charge $5000.00 and up for our wedding packages.
Dave_EP wrote:
When I second shoot for people we agree a figure for my "time". When I'm there I will shoot as much or as little as I'm required to shoot, and if I need to pose people that's part of the job and doesn't require more pay. My goal as a second is the same as primary - shoot the very best I possibly can to produce the best images for the couple on the day. End of story.
I'm even happy to do the posing while the primary shoots. Often the assistant sees things that need fixing that the primary doesn't because they are focused (no pun intended) on the shot....Show more →
Thats how I work too. I don't nickle and dime someone because I did some posed photos for fifteen minutes thus making that "main shooter" time.......that's just so ridiculous.
marti.g3 wrote:
Uh nooooo, there was no misunderstanding. It wasn't her first gig. She just decided she wanted to change her pay for the same things that she was doing before as agreed upon.
Using a second shooter is solely the responsibility of the business owner BASED on the business model and experience and talent of the second. I would not hire seconds who required pay that was not inline with my pricing. Hence, if they are that good, I don't hire them.
Not all of us charge $5000.00 and up for our wedding packages.
So it wasn't a mis-understanding, she just realized she was done with you because of the continued low "assistant" pay and high shooter expectations...
Suggest reconsidering your business model. Saying you use varying talents...maybe not all qualified to be a primary?....will get you in a jam imo at some point. Suggest using a pro primary that has a certain threshold level as a primary that they can shoot the entire event on their own if needed. Then if you get in a jam, the critical times of the event will be covered properly. This becomes the most important backup a pro will choose imo - gear, contract, etc come well after this. You don't need a pro second for the entire day. I use a pro second for 2- 3 hours during prime time and pay them very well. In addition, take an assistant if needed for the entire event if you need that type of lower paid assistant support versus a "betweener" strategy that you are using which is fraught with potential issues - as you found.
Mitch W wrote:
No it doesn't, imo. Often the primary will cover the girls while the 2nd shooter covers the guys. Each is often responsible for covering each groups' posed shots before the wedding. As a 2nd I even shot the formals of the entire wedding party and families, which I admit was weird, but whatever. I guess if you were really concerned about having to shoot formals you could always make sure it's covered in your contract with the primary.
This is how I work too, and I've second shot like 45 weddings last year, and 35 planned this year... If I want a raise, I just ask. This nickel and dime way of going about it just rub me the wrong way. Second shooter is a shooter, that means you shoot photos and do whatever to get the shots at a wedding, whatever that shot is.
MAC wrote:
So it wasn't a mis-understanding, she just realized she was done with you because of the continued low "assistant" pay and high shooter expectations...
Suggest reconsidering your business model. Saying you use varying talents...maybe not all qualified to be a primary?....will get you in a jam imo at some point. Suggest using a pro primary that has a certain threshold level as a primary that they can shoot the entire event on their own if needed. Then if you get in a jam, the critical times of the event will be covered properly. This becomes the most important backup a pro will choose imo - gear, contract, etc come well after this. You don't need a pro second for the entire day. I use a pro second for 2- 3 hours during prime time and pay them very well. In addition, take an assistant if needed for the entire event if you need that type of lower paid assistant support versus a "betweener" strategy that you are using which is fraught with potential issues - as you found....Show more →
Wow, you hit it right on the head ! My God, I didn't even realize I was doing all of that. In fact, I could have you come to my studio, re evaluate my entire business that I have been running for the past 18 years and show me the correct way to do things. How you assumed so much from a short thread is beyond my wildest imagination. You really should be selling your skills in business. They are amazing.
MAC wrote:
So it wasn't a mis-understanding, she just realized she was done with you because of the continued low "assistant" pay and high shooter expectations...
Suggest reconsidering your business model. Saying you use varying talents...maybe not all qualified to be a primary?....will get you in a jam imo at some point. Suggest using a pro primary that has a certain threshold level as a primary that they can shoot the entire event on their own if needed. Then if you get in a jam, the critical times of the event will be covered properly. This becomes the most important backup a pro will choose imo - gear, contract, etc come well after this. You don't need a pro second for the entire day. I use a pro second for 2- 3 hours during prime time and pay them very well. In addition, take an assistant if needed for the entire event if you need that type of lower paid assistant support versus a "betweener" strategy that you are using which is fraught with potential issues - as you found....Show more →
I only use a second when the bride requests it, not because I need to. I can show a bride albums shot by me alone and with a second and challenge them to tell me which is which.....they never can.
4honor wrote:
This is how I work too, and I've second shot like 45 weddings last year, and 35 planned this year... If I want a raise, I just ask. This nickel and dime way of going about it just rub me the wrong way. Second shooter is a shooter, that means you shoot photos and do whatever to get the shots at a wedding, whatever that shot is.
Exactly......when I used to second, I shot whatever they told me to shoot....no big deal. But I never approached them AFTER the fact and micro managed the time I was there saying I should get paid differently for "these" shots over "these other shots"........thats just plain stupid. .
Ok I have not second shot yet and I am looking at that in the future. I don't understand your seconds issues. Typically when I see shots from multiple shooters at a wedding you have for example one person doing the guys and one person taking care of the ladies. I would think that there would have to be some interaction there and not just a fly on the wall. So my question is did she raise the rate issues with you after the event? Since you had used her multiple times in the past I take it that you just contact her and give her the event details and say the normal rate. If that is the case did she ever say anything to you about a rate increase? I can understand her coming to you after the fact and negotiating a higher rate in the future based off of duties she perceives to a mains responsibilities. But again that is part of negotiations. It really sounds like the second went about the situation the wrong way. If you feel they are valuable it may be good to open up a dialogue with her and see if there is a solution.
She probably decided that the pay wasn't in line with the responsibility of doing more photography than schlepping gear. I wouldn't worry about it, either pay her more or find another person you can pay less and still get the kind of work you want from them.
There are two types of 2nd shooters. You need to figure out which one works best for you.
One is the trainee, the person who wants to be a photographer but needs a bit more experience. They usually end up doing more gear hauling and table shots/posed photos/filler material than actual wedding coverage. The pay rate is more along the lines of general labor. $10-20 an hour. You can't really depend on them for anything critical. But they have 2 arms, 2 legs, can lift 50lbs and know how to use a camera. The most valuable quality of this group is that they follow directions and do what they're told. But the catch is you really need to stop and explain things along the way. And if they really want to be a photographer, eventually their skill level will increase and they will want more responsibility and you need to be able to recognize when that happens or you'll have a labor dispute on your hands with them not feeling like their work is valuable or respected.
Then you have the second type. 2nd photographers who are almost/just as/more so experienced than the chief photographer. They often photograph alongside the chief photographer and are given important duties such as formals of the groomsmen. The pay rate is more in line with skilled labor $30-$50 an hour. They will carry a bag here and there but don't ask them to carry all of your equipment for you or play human light stand. The most valuable aspect of this group is that they can work completely autonomous. You need to tell them what you want them to do or they will cover the whole wedding themselves, possibly getting in the way. But you will never need to tell them how to do something.
Also, the more you work with a particular person the more valuable they become as they learn all of your cues and your way of doing things. When you hire someone new you have to go through that process of getting to know each others behavior all over again. It's important with both types but especially the first as you're basically their instructor and the way you do things will eventually become the way they do things.
Micky Bill wrote:
She probably decided that the pay wasn't in line with the responsibility of doing more photography than schlepping gear. I wouldn't worry about it, either pay her more or find another person you can pay less and still get the kind of work you want from them.
She never schlepped gear. She shot second on some weddings and also shot main on other weddings with a second. She wasn't asking for MORE money, she was trying to dictate WHICH photos commanded main pay and which ones commanded second pay.
fastcarsspeed wrote:
Ok I have not second shot yet and I am looking at that in the future. I don't understand your seconds issues. Typically when I see shots from multiple shooters at a wedding you have for example one person doing the guys and one person taking care of the ladies. I would think that there would have to be some interaction there and not just a fly on the wall. So my question is did she raise the rate issues with you after the event? Since you had used her multiple times in the past I take it that you just contact her and give her the event details and say the normal rate. If that is the case did she ever say anything to you about a rate increase? I can understand her coming to you after the fact and negotiating a higher rate in the future based off of duties she perceives to a mains responsibilities. But again that is part of negotiations. It really sounds like the second went about the situation the wrong way. If you feel they are valuable it may be good to open up a dialogue with her and see if there is a solution. ...Show more →
She never approached my prior about her duties. It was clearly spelled out. It was ONLY AFTER a wedding that she brought the subject up. I have used other seconds who never did what she did. A second is a second. A main is a main. I think that is pretty clear.
swoop wrote:
There are two types of 2nd shooters. You need to figure out which one works best for you.
One is the trainee, the person who wants to be a photographer but needs a bit more experience. They usually end up doing more gear hauling and table shots/posed photos/filler material than actual wedding coverage. The pay rate is more along the lines of general labor. $10-20 an hour. You can't really depend on them for anything critical. But they have 2 arms, 2 legs, can lift 50lbs and know how to use a camera. The most valuable quality of this group is that they follow directions and do what they're told. But the catch is you really need to stop and explain things along the way. And if they really want to be a photographer, eventually their skill level will increase and they will want more responsibility and you need to be able to recognize when that happens or you'll have a labor dispute on your hands with them not feeling like their work is valuable or respected.
Then you have the second type. 2nd photographers who are almost/just as/more so experienced than the chief photographer. They often photograph alongside the chief photographer and are given important duties such as formals of the groomsmen. The pay rate is more in line with skilled labor $30-$50 an hour. They will carry a bag here and there but don't ask them to carry all of your equipment for you or play human light stand. The most valuable aspect of this group is that they can work completely autonomous. You need to tell them what you want them to do or they will cover the whole wedding themselves, possibly getting in the way. But you will never need to tell them how to do something.
Also, the more you work with a particular person the more valuable they become as they learn all of your cues and your way of doing things. When you hire someone new you have to go through that process of getting to know each others behavior all over again. It's important with both types but especially the first as you're basically their instructor and the way you do things will eventually become the way they do things. ...Show more →
She never carried one bit of gear ever, not even my bottle of water. She came to me after I put out an advertisement. She had some experience, but she wasn't the greatest. I taught her posing, all of the timeline photos of the day, the "money" shots as us old timers called them.
She was the quiet, shy type who was more content to be in the background having NO people contact. Her work was acceptable. Not great, She was dependable, local and had her own acceptable gear. I have other seconds who have shot with me for over 12 years.
Another second/main that I trained eventually left and is now on her own. She knew ZERO about posing, formals, pre shots or romantics. Once she started to blossom, her head got swollen and she would only accept gigs that SHE felt were in line with HER standards.
I've seen that time and time again over the past 20 years. Train someone, they get a big head and fly the coop. Nothing wrong with going out on their own, it's the "big head" that irks me.
Like I said don't worry about, it sounds like you are pretty much through with her anyway what with her big head and all. Either pay her what she asks for or kick her to the curb. Just like clients will only pay photographers $XX for photography, photographers will only pay assistants or seconds or whatever $XX for their work.
You've been doing this for 20 years, why all the drama? It's all part of the game.
I too wondered why some of the dramatic responses to some of the posts. In fairness to the OP, he didn't exactly ask for advice on how to handle the situation he had with this 2nd shooter. At the same time, this is a sensitive subject and much of the comments and advice may not be necessarily aimed at the OP. It's just the natural flow of information and ideas, as we all have either dealt with similar situations, or may in the future. For what it's worth, I think this has been a productive thread.
