In your opinion, what exactly are the second shooters duties for the day. If a second is asked to shoot some posed shots does that change to "main duties", and change the pay scale for that time spent
shooting those images ?
Well are we talking associate shooters or assistants?
I pay other associate shooters who are of equal skill to me WAY more than I would pay a simple assistant that would just carry stuff.
My assistant last night was in charge of carrying stuff to and from the car and manning (womaning haha) the photobooth. Couple hours work = 50 bucks. They are a high school student and NOT interested in shooting just in making a couple extra bucks for shoes most likely.
People who shoot with me (not normal because my wife shoots with me 99% of the time) are skilled enough to do things on their own and have free reign to do whatever they want during the day. Pay depends on how much I am making in the wedding package and how good the shooter is.
3-500 normally.
No it doesn't, imo. Often the primary will cover the girls while the 2nd shooter covers the guys. Each is often responsible for covering each groups' posed shots before the wedding. As a 2nd I even shot the formals of the entire wedding party and families, which I admit was weird, but whatever. I guess if you were really concerned about having to shoot formals you could always make sure it's covered in your contract with the primary.
I had a second who insisted I pay her main pay for the time that she shot posed images of the girls prior to the ceremony. It was like cherry picking in my opinion. " Oh I shot these, so you pay me this much"....."then I shot this so you pay me this"......needless to say I only paid her what we agreed upon and haven't used her since, even though I had used her regularly. I don't know what bug crawled up her ass but obviously she had some idea that she should get paid more IF she had to shoot some posed images during the day.
From talking to others who work with her and share her view, they feel that as a second, they should only have to saunter around the day, shoot whatever they deem artsy and different from traditional images without any interaction with clients. The proverbial " fly on the wall" photographer. That is their view of what second shooting duties are.
hardlyboring wrote:
Well are we talking associate shooters or assistants?
I pay other associate shooters who are of equal skill to me WAY more than I would pay a simple assistant that would just carry stuff.
My assistant last night was in charge of carrying stuff to and from the car and manning (womaning haha) the photobooth. Couple hours work = 50 bucks. They are a high school student and NOT interested in shooting just in making a couple extra bucks for shoes most likely.
People who shoot with me (not normal because my wife shoots with me 99% of the time) are skilled enough to do things on their own and have free reign to do whatever they want during the day. Pay depends on how much I am making in the wedding package and how good the shooter is.
3-500 normally.
...Show more →
" Second shooters"...not an assistant who schleps gear.
Mitch W wrote:
That girl is whacked and obviously blew a good second shooting relationship with you.
My sentiments exactly. I used her all the time as she was mature and dependable and created cool images. I guess it's better to sit home on Saturdays for her.
Looking at both sides of the coin, if her expectations were that she would be artsy fly on the wall, giving no direction etc - and actually being sent off on her own to primary shoot sections of the day (i.e. shoot all the guys while you shoot the bride), then she may have a point. Not that you should have paid here more, but maybe that you could have set her expectations a bit more realistic. I was in this same situation awhile ago as a second and ended up primary for 2 hours of guy photos and I must admit, it did raise an eyebrow. Of course I didn't say anything and everything went well, but I learned my lesson as to how I will approach this in the future.
marti.g3 wrote:
My sentiments exactly. I used her all the time as she was mature and dependable and created cool images. I guess it's better to sit home on Saturdays for her.
If you used her all the time and nothing changed except what she thought she should be paid, it sounds like she simply wants a raise. If you like her work, maybe you can still work something out...
It's appropriate to pay a second according to:
- the second's skill at delivering high-quality shots appropriate for your style;
- the amount of work you ask the second to do;
- the skill level required to do the work you ask your second to do;
- the degree to which the second makes the day easier (or, heaven forbid, harder) for you;
- the second's personality and the degree to which he or she helps you establish your brand; and
- the value to that second of shooting that gig with you (e.g., if it will greatly augment the second's portfolio, you might pay a bit less; if there's some privacy issue and the second can't use any of her own images, then you might pay a bit more).
There are other considerations, but these are relevant variables.
But you establish agreement about the details of both pay AND expectations/duties before-hand, and then you don't have quibbling after the fact, unless you're working with a nitwit.
The fact that this gal wanted to argue after the fact suggests that you might not have clearly articulated expectations ahead of time, or perhaps just that she believes she's become more skilled and valuable to you without a pay increase, but is negotiating inappropriately.
An entitlement mentality is worrisome. In my experience, it often foreshadows a precipitous decline in a second's service quality (especially related to attitude). I'd say you're probably right to cut her loose.
It is entirely reasonable for a second to expect a pay increase after shooting with you multiple times. Typically, the second will be considerably more valuable to you after the second learns your style, your signals, your approach with clients. Not to mention the likelihood that the second's actual shooting skills probably will have improved.
Did you increase her pay over time? If so, did you link those pay increases to specific, measurable improvements? This is an important part of managing your relationship with your second shooter(s), and is an aspect of management that I think many photographers don't handle well. (Not that you're necessarily at fault in this way.)
EDIT: my intended tone here was not harsh or accusatory, as I think this reads, upon review. Take this comment in a tone of mere observation, with no pointed fingers. Just interested questions.
I ask very specific questions about what I'm expected to do when I second shoot. I've shot for many, many mains, and for the most part they have varying ideas of what they want me to do. If you tell me up front that I'm going to be doing the formals, etc., and I agree to it, then there's no problem.
I don't need to worry about it, as I don't use second shooters. The added headaches, egos and miscellaneous worries that comes with it never appealed to me. Unless I get run over by a car in the middle of the day, I *PERSONALLY* don't see the value. A lot of photographers may use them as a crutch i guess. I also have no interest in editing even more images!
Steve Tinetti wrote:
Looking at both sides of the coin, if her expectations were that she would be artsy fly on the wall, giving no direction etc - and actually being sent off on her own to primary shoot sections of the day (i.e. shoot all the guys while you shoot the bride), then she may have a point. Not that you should have paid here more, but maybe that you could have set her expectations a bit more realistic. I was in this same situation awhile ago as a second and ended up primary for 2 hours of guy photos and I must admit, it did raise an eyebrow. Of course I didn't say anything and everything went well, but I learned my lesson as to how I will approach this in the future....Show more →
She was "trained" and mentored prior to being paid, It wasn't like she was being asked to shoot an entire wedding on her own. There were times where she was told, hey go get some shots of the girls getting ready in their room. " Oh, that is main shooter stuff, I should get paid more for that"......" WTF, you just go in their and shoot candids"........."How is that main shooter duties".........
Or "Hey, go shoot some photos of the bride with each girl".....takes maybe ten minutes.....stuff like that.......
Ian Ivey wrote:
It's appropriate to pay a second according to:
- the second's skill at delivering high-quality shots appropriate for your style;
- the amount of work you ask the second to do;
- the skill level required to do the work you ask your second to do;
- the degree to which the second makes the day easier (or, heaven forbid, harder) for you;
- the second's personality and the degree to which he or she helps you establish your brand; and
- the value to that second of shooting that gig with you (e.g., if it will greatly augment the second's portfolio, you might pay a bit less; if there's some privacy issue and the second can't use any of her own images, then you might pay a bit more).
There are other considerations, but these are relevant variables.
But you establish agreement about the details of both pay AND expectations/duties before-hand, and then you don't have quibbling after the fact, unless you're working with a nitwit.
The fact that this gal wanted to argue after the fact suggests that you might not have clearly articulated expectations ahead of time, or perhaps just that she believes she's become more skilled and valuable to you without a pay increase, but is negotiating inappropriately.
An entitlement mentality is worrisome. In my experience, it often foreshadows a precipitous decline in a second's service quality (especially related to attitude). I'd say you're probably right to cut her loose....Show more →
Why do people always assume that "expectations" weren't clearly set. She wanted to change the terms to her own terms.
pinktutu wrote:
I ask very specific questions about what I'm expected to do when I second shoot. I've shot for many, many mains, and for the most part they have varying ideas of what they want me to do. If you tell me up front that I'm going to be doing the formals, etc., and I agree to it, then there's no problem. However, I have had an instance where the primary hired by the company skedaddled out of the church so fast to get the details from the venue because he said they were running late before the ceremony and he didn't get the chance to grab them, that my BS-senses went tingling. From what I had understood, I was only going to take the groom and his groomsmen's formals at the church pre ceremony, but I ended up taking all the formals since they ran late earlier. Later on, the primary told me he hated doing formals and laughed it up that it was why I was there. Just a weird vibe that had me reevaluating how I'd work with this photographer in the future....Show more →
Well that clearly sucks for you and he took advantage of you.
RJKphoto wrote:
I don't need to worry about it, as I don't use second shooters. The added headaches, egos and miscellaneous worries that comes with it never appealed to me. Unless I get run over by a car in the middle of the day, I *PERSONALLY* don't see the value. A lot of photographers may use them as a crutch i guess. I also have no interest in editing even more images!
*PERSONALLY*= my opinion
I agree with you....ONLY if a bride requests it will I use one. And then it's just for show, not really content. I can cover an entire event with zero assistance.
marti.g3 wrote: Why do people always assume that "expectations" weren't clearly set. She wanted to change the terms to her own terms. Everyone is replaceable.
I think you jumped to conclusions. I said failure to set expectations was one possibility, and did not assume that was the case.
It's true that people often think they have been clear about expectations when they have not in fact achieved mutual understanding. But I didn't assume that was true of you, and said so.
When I second shoot for people we agree a figure for my "time". When I'm there I will shoot as much or as little as I'm required to shoot, and if I need to pose people that's part of the job and doesn't require more pay. My goal as a second is the same as primary - shoot the very best I possibly can to produce the best images for the couple on the day. End of story.
I'm even happy to do the posing while the primary shoots. Often the assistant sees things that need fixing that the primary doesn't because they are focused (no pun intended) on the shot.
