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Archive 2012 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

Siddhu
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p.11 #1 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

@Lars, that still does not fully explain why Canon (and I guess Nikon) would drop accurate DOF representation which to me is an integral and essential part of photography. If they felt it was important, they would be able to integrate "technological advancements" such as on-demand grid & AF point overlays while still having viable options so that users can "see" their DOF.

I'll rephrase:

DOF manipulation has been an integral creative and technical aspect of photography since it's early days. How/why is it that camera manufacturers sell cameras targeted at serious enthusiasts and pros that do not allow you to accurately see your DOF if you are using an aperture larger than f/4?

Can they not build a body that allows accurate DOF visualization with fast lenses while retaining their "technological advancements" such as on-demand grid & AF point overlays?

Is being able to see your DOF accurately not important to photographers anymore? Am I just a Luddite?

Apr 12, 2012 at 03:40 PM

Lars Johnsson
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p.11 #2 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

also remember that 99% of the people with an DSLR camera will never buy any extra focusing screens even if they have the option.

Apr 12, 2012 at 03:54 PM

kahren
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p.11 #3 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

Siddhu wrote:
@Lars, that still does not fully explain why Canon (and I guess Nikon) would drop accurate DOF representation which to me is an integral and essential part of photography. If they felt it was important, they would be able to integrate "technological advancements" such as on-demand grid & AF point overlays while still having viable options so that users can "see" their DOF.

I'll rephrase:

DOF manipulation has been an integral creative and technical aspect of photography since it's early days. How/why is it that camera manufacturers sell cameras targeted at serious enthusiasts and pros that do not allow you to accurately...Show more →

that answer is simple, canon and nikon want you to buy mirrorless system

Apr 12, 2012 at 03:57 PM

carstenw
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p.11 #4 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

Wilhelm, yes, for sure the higher pixel count and pitch will result in some disappointments with some lenses. I have been planning for this for some time, and have only 24-70 and 70-200 VRII from Nikon at this point, in addition to the 60 Micro (which I wanted to sell, but which is super sweet performing on the D3, so I have been delaying). On top of this I have two Leicas (35 Lux, 180 Cron) and 5 Zeiss lenses (21, 28, 50P, 50MP, 100MP), of which I am only worried about the 50P, which I love. I do also own a 16/2.8 AF-D which I am a bit worried about, but in the worst case I will simply sell it. I barely use it, and only keep it for its uniqueness. I have to test this and see how it does before deciding.

Apr 12, 2012 at 03:58 PM

Siddhu
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p.11 #5 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

Lars Johnsson wrote:
also remember that 99% of the people with an DSLR camera will never buy any extra focusing screens even if they have the option.

Man you just don't give up! I was about to say in my earlier post that I know that Lars is going to jump in saying that most people don't buy interchangeable screens or to buy a 1DX

Where am I talking about interchangeable screens? I'm making a point about seeing accurate DOF with fast lenses.

Apr 12, 2012 at 04:32 PM

plubbry
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p.11 #6 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

Nikon does not offer various replacement screens for most of its recent DSLRs. However, that does not prevent someone from using different screens. There are a number of different companies that are modifying screens to fit various cameras.

Most of Nikon's recent DSLRs do not use focus screens that have etched grid lines or focus points. The grid overlays and focus points are actually displayed on a small display that sits between the focus screen and the pentaprism. So using different focus screens will not impact these features.

In my D300 I am currently using a plain matte screen from an old Nikon FE film camera. I had to be cut down the screen to fit the smaller DX viewfinder but swapping out the stock screen is fairly simple. This screen will show me the actual DOF of f1.2.

There is a very good reason why modern focus screens don't show accruate DOF for apertures wider than approx f4. The amount of light passed thru the screen and the 'accuracy' of the DOF are an inverse relation. If you want to accurately see f1.2 DOF you need a much 'rougher' surface on the focus screen. The rougher the surface of the screen the less light it lets thru. This isn't too much of an issue when you're shooting with a prime lense that opens up to a max aperture of f1.2, f1.4 or f1.8. since there is still plenty of light being let in. However, stick a zoom lens that may have a max aperture of f5.6 on the tele end and the view finder gets very dark very fast. So it is really a trade off between a fairly bright viewfinder and a more accurate representation of DOF.

Apr 12, 2012 at 04:36 PM

wayne seltzer
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p.11 #7 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

carstenw wrote:
Very cool link, Wayne, thanks for that. I am starting to be thankful that I didn't get a camera from the first batch, but if something needs modifying in the design, I might be waiting a while. Thankfully I didn't sell my D3 yet, although I did think I had a buyer at one point.

I found these D800 Youtube links posted in this FM Nikon forum thread to be interesting too:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1103347

I liked the one on the D800 LiveView showing an example of how the LiveView may look fuzzier than the real shot because it is interpolating horizontal and vertical lines and not presenting the real image the sensor will capture like the Canon's do and like some of the Nikon cameras do. This is one thing I don't like with the D800 but it is only a problem in certain situations depending on distance to subject, subject matter etc. The other thing is that the LiveView only works with the aperture you are selecting and can not be configured to use the wide open aperture for easy viewing in low light. In manual mode it uses the selected aperture and doesn't brighten the LiveView if it is dark so you may have to switch to aperture mode to focus and then go back to manual mode to take the shot. A good example is given where you have dark place with studio strobe lights.
Other than those few things and the reported AF problems with a few lenses, the D800 looks great and I just wish Canon had a high MP offering so I didn't have to think about switching to Nikon and having two different camera platforms and not being able to use all the great EF/ZE mount glass I have.
In another week I will hopefully have my rented D800 and I may rent a ZF version of the 21 to shoot on it, along with my own ZF 35/2, 14-24G, and 24/1.4G lenses. It is still going to be another month before the E version is available which is probably the one I would get for landscape and so now I can check out the D800 non-E version now and see if it is worth getting for me.
Personally, as someone with a lot of EF mount glass it has been sickening to see Canon's sensor tech go from being industry leading in the times when my 1ds3 came out and before the D3/D3x and to now where they seem to be far behind Sony's sensor tech.

Apr 12, 2012 at 04:47 PM

Sven Jeppesen
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p.11 #8 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

plubbry wrote:
Nikon does not offer various replacement screens for most of its recent DSLRs. However, that does not prevent someone from using different screens. There are a number of different companies that are modifying screens to fit various cameras.

Most of Nikon's recent DSLRs do not use focus screens that have etched grid lines or focus points. The grid overlays and focus points are actually displayed on a small display that sits between the focus screen and the pentaprism. So using different focus screens will not impact these features.

In my D300 I am currently using a plain matte screen from an...Show more →

I would say f/2,8 and not f/4 for normal screens and accurate DOF.
And yes I would not like to have an Canon S screen in my camera all the time. With many of my zoom lenses it's just too dark in the viewfinder

Apr 12, 2012 at 05:01 PM

carstenw
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p.11 #9 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

Wayne, I feel for you, I really do. I have been very vocal in my criticism of Canon, as everyone here knows, but if I didn't care about the company, I wouldn't bother commenting. There are just specific things which they have consistently done wrong, and many of them are entirely avoidable, several with minor firmware changes.

In the last generation of cameras they really seem to be slipping on the sensor side, with Nikon and others pulling further and further ahead. It is very frustrating to see this happening. All told, I prefer Nikon and Canon to stay roughly on par, both because I have many friends with Canons, and also because it keeps everyone on their toes. Video has been the real savior of Canon recently, as well as their huge installed base. Anyway, there are certainly still some good reasons to go with Canons.

The D800 looks like a kick-ass camera, great dynamic range, apparently great colour, great resolution, all in a great body with many improvements. Everything is not rosy, but all said, I think the D800 will end up being by far the best camera I have ever owned. Some of the limitations of the camera luckily do not affect me much, such as AF and sharpness performance with some lenses, possible live view limitations (I almost always use A mode), and so on, but for others, it may be less ideal.

I originally had the D800E on order, but after seeing the D800 vs. Leica S2 comparisons from Lloyd Chambers, I changed my order to a D800. I just don't see the point of having to deal with the moire, the D800 has truck loads of resolution and a light AA filter. The saved money also doesn't hurt.

If at some point you do decide to switch, then I am sure that you will be able to swap your ZE glass for ZF.2 glass somehow, with a little patience. There are still loads of happy Canon owners out there.

Apr 12, 2012 at 05:18 PM

Siddhu
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p.11 #10 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

So basically all modern DSLRs are designed for slow zooms and the rest of us are just going to have to live with it/adapt or die. Pros don't use fast lenses and have no need to see shallow depth of field. Maybe I'm just thick but I don't really understand this line of reasoning.

I'm going to let this drop and go fume in the corner!

Apr 12, 2012 at 06:20 PM

philber
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p.11 #11 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

Carsten, I request a few day's grace before you bury the 5DIII, I am now sitting in Santiago de Chile, having shot intensively for 10 days with Boris. Before I can get to a computer I cannot give a final judgement, but my feeling is, based on the LCD readout, that the 5DIII is significantly improved over its older sibling in terms of IQ.
Before this trip, it felt like the Canon sensor of 5DII lagged that of the Sony NEX 5N, and now the more recent sensor feels like it has closed that gap.
Also, on the focusing, even with ZE 50P, probably Zeiss' most difficult lens to focus, I shot repeatedly open wider than f:2.8, and with a better keeper rate than ever before with my 5DII.
Needless to say, I am eager to see how those pics stack up...

Apr 12, 2012 at 06:59 PM

itai195
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p.11 #12 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

Checking back in on this thread after a few days, I have to say it didn't take the trajectory I expected

While I personally agree with Carsten, I must say I know many more people who are buying 5D3s than D800s. If I were a Canon shooter, I wouldn't switch just for a D800. In a few years the situation is likely to reverse again. That is if we're still even using DSLRs at that point.

Apr 12, 2012 at 08:11 PM

Lars Johnsson
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p.11 #13 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

Why is so many of the 5D3 owners happy with it's MF capability then? Many of them writing about it here in the alt forum also. And improving their keeper rate with fast glass. People like Bob, Philber and others that have been shooting with 5D2 before and now have the 5D3 and fast Zeiss glass.

And all modern DSLRs are not only designed for slow zooms where the pros can't see shallow depth. I own 3 different pro bodies. And I can see shallow depth in all of those. I also have many different focusing screens for all those 3 cameras.
I don't get it? I can understand if you really hate this new Canon body. And that it can't change focusing screens. But why must you buy exactly that body then ? The 5D3 does not fit all my needs either. So I will buy another body.

Apr 13, 2012 at 12:01 AM

Gunzorro
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p.11 #14 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

Carsten -- With regard to colors and the 5D3, I thought this thread with examples from Joshua Ong was amazing. I already like the images from the 5D2, so I can only imagine I will like the 5D3 even more. I think Lloyd's opinion about a strong color cast is off-base -- I'm not seeing it in the 5D3 photos being posted.

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1102522/0#10520248

Apr 13, 2012 at 12:31 AM

carstenw
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p.11 #15 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

Philippe, I look forward to your shots! I have to say though that seeing good results on the rear LCD is not a good indication, and may only mean that they improved the LCD

But let's see some real-world results first.

In spite of his apparent thoroughness, I feel that Lloyd Chambers has been slipping recently, and is sometimes jumping to conclusions. It will be interesting to see what this forum can do with the camera. The problem may be that he is using ACR... I was using Aperture 3 but switched to Lightroom 4, and I have to say that I hate the colours from it so far, to such an extent that I am totally discouraged and have almost stopped processing. I will have to figure out how to fix that.

Apr 13, 2012 at 02:00 AM

carstenw
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p.11 #16 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

Great shots, Jim, in Joshua's thread. I have to say that I am not completely convinced by the reds in the skin tones, except for one shot, but those were pretty harsh conditions, so let's see what comes up in other threads.

Apr 13, 2012 at 02:10 AM

AhamB
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p.11 #17 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

Siddhu wrote:
So basically all modern DSLRs are designed for slow zooms and the rest of us are just going to have to live with it/adapt or die. Pros don't use fast lenses and have no need to see shallow depth of field. Maybe I'm just thick but I don't really understand this line of reasoning.

My guess is that since AF has become viable, camera manufacturers have opted to make the viewfinder brighter because the accuracy for MF was no longer needed. I use the Ee-S screen in my 5D full-time, so I'm with you on wanting to see a better representation of DOF (although the S-type screen is not ideal, esp. with the weird hexagons in the bokeh with bright light).

I guess we'll only get accurate DOF view back with mirrorless cameras.

Apr 13, 2012 at 03:12 AM

Siddhu
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p.11 #18 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

Lars Johnsson wrote:
Why is so many of the 5D3 owners happy with it's MF capability then? Many of them writing about it here in the alt forum also. And improving their keeper rate with fast glass. People like Bob, Philber and others that have been shooting with 5D2 before and now have the 5D3 and fast Zeiss glass.

1) I spent 3.5 days shooting with the 5D3 using the 35mm at f/1.4 and my keeper rate was way below my keeper rate on the 5D2 with the EG-S screen. So far, no one else in this thread has gone out and shot extensively with the 35mm f/1.4 Distagon and the 5D3. I stated previously that I would like someonelse to do the same so we can see if my experience is the norm or an anomaly. Many of the shooters here have not tested the 5D3 yet with fast apertures specifically the 35mm f/1.4 wide open. Philber himself states the same. He stated that when shooting stopped down he had no problems.

I stated the same thing that in and around f/4 the AF confirm can be completely counted on.

all modern DSLRs are not only designed for slow zooms where the pros can't see shallow depth. I own 3 different pro bodies. And I can see shallow depth in all of those. I also have many different focusing screens for all those 3 cameras.

Well with the stock screen in the 5d2 and 5D3 you cannot see a shallower DOF then 2.8. This was confirmed to me by CPS this morning.

I don't get it? I can understand if you really hate this new Canon body. And that it can't change focusing screens. But why must you buy exactly that body then ? The 5D3 does not fit all my needs either. So I will buy another body.

I don't hate the Canon 5D3, I think it's a fantastic camera. The point I've been trying to make (which you refuse to acknowledge) is that the modern pro DSLRs do not give you the same precision viewfinders as in the film days. This is not a nostalgia for film but I find it surprising that on pro level bodies, the needs of users who shoot on fast glass are basically ignored in favour of users with slower zooms.

I'm not just stuck on the interchangeable focusing screen issue but the broader implications of not being able to see your DOF accurately with apertures greater than 2.8.

I can understand the f2.8 DOF on consumer/mass market models where purchasers just leave on the kit zoom, but not on pro level bodies.

When you say to me just buy a different body, I say that the 5Dx series is perfect for me since I have no need for the 1Dx series for my style of shooting. As far as I know, Canon's only full frames are the 5x series and the 1x series, if there is another FF Canon body that I'm not aware of please point it out to me.

Apr 13, 2012 at 08:02 AM

philber
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p.11 #19 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

Siddhu, I respectfully beg to differ. For 10 days now in Chile, I have shot both 5DII and 5DIII with ZE 25 f:2.0, 35 f:1.4 and 50 f:1.4. I have shot the 50 wide open in a rainforest where leaves are moving, at close to MFD. That is as tough as any type of shot to focus. My keeper rate for these very wide apertures with the III was at least double that of the II. Now it is difficult for me to say that I focused exclusively with the viewfinder, and thus ignored the AF confirm, because I used one but the other also helped. But what matters IMHO is the keeper rate, and, for me, it worked great.

Apr 13, 2012 at 08:16 AM

rji2goleez
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p.11 #20 · 5D III for alt and MF lenses: a game changer!

Siddhu wrote:

I have shot the 5D3 with the 35/1.4 along with the 50mp and 100mp all wide open and in my unscientific observations, my keeper rate is at least as good as the 5d2 with the Eg-S screen. My Flickr stream has several recent images taken with the 50mp at f/2 all hand held using the viewfinder and AF assist as guide.

I'm not looking to dispute, just to state my observations to date.

35/1.4 @ f/2

Tough Ride by RJIPhotography, on Flickr

50mp @ f/2

Daily Wanderings 040112-90 by RJIPhotography, on Flickr

50mp @ f/2

Daily Wanderings 040112-71 by RJIPhotography, on Flickr

Apr 13, 2012 at 08:27 AM

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