philipj wrote:
Feel free to disagree with me, but you don't have to insult my intelligence.
If you honestly don't think there was some discussion about this between Nikon and Sony, you're the one who needs to get a Clue [sic]. No other manufacturer has signed on to make XQD cards yet, so Nikon would have a lot of explaining to do if they launched their flagship new pro camera with a port for cards that no one was making.
Philip,
Nikon, along with SanDisk and Sony, developed the XQD memory card format. Here:
Is it clear now why Nikon used that format in their flagship camera?
Maybe you should get a clue....
Scott
I'm glad everyone feels okay being rude to each other on this forum.
Nikon doesn't make memory cards. Sony does. Sandisk has so far chosen not to make XQD cards. That the D4 contains an XQD card slot and Sony decided to release XQD cards at the same time is not a coincidence. Not sure why this seems to offend some of you so much.
Q. Why did you choose the XQD format for one of the D4's card slots?
The main reason is the XQD format is faster than CompactFlash. We worked with Sony (the maker of the first XQD cards) to get better write speed in the D4. Sony says their first XQD cards will be capable of 125MB/s, and the D4 will be able to take advantage of that level of performance. In fact, the camera's XQD slot can go much faster than that, well over 200MB/s, as higher-speed XQD cards come out in the future.
This is faster than CompactFlash cards today, though the D4 will be able to take advantage of fast UDMA 7 CompactFlash cards as well.
Q. Both SanDisk and Lexar have told us that XQD is not on their product roadmap currently. Have any companies other than Sony told you they will be making XQD cards?
At this moment we don't know which companies will be making XQD, other than Sony....Show more →
Nikon doesn't make DSLR sensors either. But they do design them.
Your "relevant quote" does nothing to invalidate what I wrote. Nikon developed the XQD format with SanDisk and Sony for the very reason Toshiaki Akagi said they used it in the D4. That wanted a memory card format that was faster than what was currently available.
How do you know that Nikon did not pressure Sony to make the XQD cards?? They have Sony make lots of sensors for them....
afm901 wrote:
How do you know that Nikon did not pressure Sony to make the XQD cards?? They have Sony make lots of sensors for them....
Sony is a significantly larger company that Nikon, so it's hard to see how Nikon could pressure Sony into doing much of anything. Sony is making money by selling sensors to Nikon, and they're also obviously going to make money by being, for now, the soul source or XQD cards.
The interesting part of the interview I quoted, to me, was that Nikon worked singularly with Sony on this. Sony is hardly doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, they're in this to make money, so I don't see why anyone thinks it's a stretch to assume there isn't some financial agreement between the two.
Again, more than happy to hear other opinions on this, and I sure could be wrong, but there's no reason not to keep this a little more civil.
In the world of business, you do things to keep your customers happy. Sony is happy to be making sensors for Nikon. Nikon is the one with the leverage in the relationship. Sony is not going to go to Nikon and force them to release a DSLR, much less their flagship DSLR, with a memory card format the Nikon does not want to use.
More likely, Nikon and Sony had this planned out when the D4 was still on the drawing board.
i wonder, did intel pressure apple to use the Thunderbolt on all their products? i mean after all they supply all the cpus and bridge product to them. or was apple all to happy to oblige because they were given exclusive use to it for a year?
the difference here is that if you look at the way business is/was done is simple:
technologies:
1-XQD- the XQD card is at this time coming out at a price/performance competitive point. 16GB/$229 whereas the new Lexar 1000x CF (UDMA7) is arriving at 16GB/$154. the write speeds are pretty dramatically different at 51-62MB/s (size dependent) on a D4 for the Lexar CF and the XQD card ingests at 90MB/s. reads though are a little sluggish on the XQD at 116MB/s vs 80-129MB/s (size dependent) for the Lexar 1000x CF. even the required external reader isn't priced off the planet either at $45 i think i can work with it though. XQD also removes a few other b%#@#h factors like possible bent pins and such. it does ride an the faster bus too.
2-Thunderbolt- TB cables from apple (currently the only vendor i could find easily if at all after almost a year of it being out on mac products) 2.0m for $50 and delivered related products other then apple can be pretty much counted on one hand at some really interesting price points. lets face it 90% of TB owners don't use it or really have any idea what is for other then knowing it's faster. now TB goes non exclusive in april.we might actually see if TB has legs as there has been a whole lotta claims with a whole notta real world.
Rodolfo Paiz wrote:
Then let us fervently hope you never take up a law-enforcement occupation, or any occupation where a basic understanding of economics, a solid grounding in reality, and a useful grasp of simple empirical logic are required.
Yes, that's a fairly harsh statement. But please, get a Clue! The XQD format is an open standard, so there will be lots of companies making them (they just are not doing so yet). And XQD, despite a clumsy name, is in the D4 simply because of the natural evolution of technology, just like ISA cards gave way to PCI and then to PCIe and a million other such examples. Most cameras that now use CF will go to XQD at some point.
It's in the D4 because the D4 is Nikon's flagship, and Nikon is making every effort to stay on the leading edge of technology. Simple as that....Show more →
With the Olympics coming up, that's pure BS.. Nikon is taking a big risk on a new technology right out of the starting gate, and at a time when IF anything goes wrong with images, it'll be a big media shit storm for them.. And Nikon will be frantic trying to sort out XQD issues..
XQD isn't going to make Nikon's D4 look cutting edge if it works... But it'll sure put Nikon in a bad spot if the cards don't work well.. Sure it's a bit faster, but then why not go two XQD and no CF?
Oh, and nobody buying a D4 is going to ooohh and ahhh over XQD, they're going to want a camera that hits focus.. XQD is nice, but is it worth the potential risk?
Nikon (a Japanese and historically risk adverse company) really probably didn't want XQD in the D4 yet.
Sony forcing Nikon's hand is as valid a point as anything anyone else has mentioned...
philipj wrote:
Not sure what you mean, there's no conspiracy here?
S A R C A S M
"I suspect it has everything to do with negotiating price that Nikon has to pay for custom sensors, and little else."
What you're describing here......is a conspriracy. Ever consider that these companies are making the smart move tech wise? Why suggest there is an ulterior motive for their actions?
Ever think that they are switching to XQD due to the increased performance? That would be the intelligent move here. Will they both make money? That would be the intelligent move here.
adamdewilde wrote:
With the Olympics coming up, that's pure BS.. Nikon is taking a big risk on a new technology right out of the starting gate, and at a time when IF anything goes wrong with images, it'll be a big media shit storm for them.. And Nikon will be frantic trying to sort out XQD issues..
XQD isn't going to make Nikon's D4 look cutting edge if it works... But it'll sure put Nikon in a bad spot if the cards don't work well.. Sure it's a bit faster, but then why not go two XQD and no CF?
Oh, and nobody buying a D4 is going to ooohh and ahhh over XQD, they're going to want a camera that hits focus.. XQD is nice, but is it worth the potential risk?
Nikon (a Japanese and historically risk adverse company) really probably didn't want XQD in the D4 yet.
Sony forcing Nikon's hand is as valid a point as anything anyone else has mentioned... ...Show more →
yes the world is flat. don't go that way its possibly dangerous.
are you by any chance in the insurance game?
i live and work in a "risk heavy" environment everyday. but you know risk is manageable to a certain extent.
as to nikon being risk adverse? by the way there is a CF slot right next to it. there are 128GB CF cards. there is the ability to double down on your images using both slots. there will be wifi and hard wired setups there at the olympics too. there are so many potential failure points available w/o even thinking of this little XQD card . but in the end as with most "risk" that can't be covered there is the human factor and that is the biggest risk overall in any situation and that has been demonstrated time and time again.
i'm saying it again:
you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't
philipj wrote:
Sony is a significantly larger company that Nikon, so it's hard to see how Nikon could pressure Sony into doing much of anything. Sony is making money by selling sensors to Nikon, and they're also obviously going to make money by being, for now, the soul source or XQD cards.
The interesting part of the interview I quoted, to me, was that Nikon worked singularly with Sony on this. Sony is hardly doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, they're in this to make money, so I don't see why anyone thinks it's a stretch to assume there isn't some financial agreement between the two.
Again, more than happy to hear other opinions on this, and I sure could be wrong, but there's no reason not to keep this a little more civil....Show more →
...."was that Nikon worked singularly with Sony on this."....This has to be the most awkward use of the term "singular" I've ever seen.
"Sony is hardly doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, they're in this to make money, so I don't see why anyone thinks it's a stretch to assume there isn't some financial agreement between the two."
..Yes...This statement is correct...but...what you're failing to grasp here, is that there isn't anything conspiritorial here. When two companies come to "some financial agreement" it is known as something we commonly refer to as "doing business". That's what companies do.
..Yes...Sony is doing this to make money...isn't that what they're supposed to do? Do you think that what they do is a hobby that they do "out of the goodness of their hearts"?
rhyder wrote:
...."was that Nikon worked singularly with Sony on this."....This has to be the most awkward use of the term "singular" I've ever seen.
"Sony is hardly doing this out of the goodness of their hearts, they're in this to make money, so I don't see why anyone thinks it's a stretch to assume there isn't some financial agreement between the two."
..Yes...This statement is correct...but...what you're failing to grasp here, is that there isn't anything conspiritorial here. When two companies come to "some financial agreement" it is known as something we commonly refer to as "doing business". That's what companies do.
..Yes...Sony is doing this to make money...isn't that what they're supposed to do? Do you think that what they do is a hobby that they do "out of the goodness of their hearts"? ...Show more →
This borders on incoherent. I'd like to point out that *you're* the one who called this a conspiracy, of which it is demonstrably not.
I'm happy to admit that I overstated that this is purely a business decision between Nikon and Sony: the XQD standard does seem to be a better memory format than CF by most measures of performance. As to the rest of my opinion, it's obviously an opinion, one I still hold, and one not worthy of anyone's personal attacks on my intelligence. I'm done posting in this thread.
no, you made statements that were not verifiable in anyway.
if you cannot validate your statements with factual data they can be considered by others as heresay, conspiracy theory, or whatever.
if you are going to say something please be able to back it up.
if it is mere theory* or conjecture please make that clear that it is just that.
philipj wrote:
This borders on incoherent. I'd like to point out that *you're* the one who called this a conspiracy, of which it is demonstrably not.
I'm happy to admit that I overstated that this is purely a business decision between Nikon and Sony: the XQD standard does seem to be a better memory format than CF by most measures of performance. As to the rest of my opinion, it's obviously an opinion, one I still hold, and one not worthy of anyone's personal attacks on my intelligence. I'm done posting in this thread.
Sorry you find my post "incoherent". I thought someone of you're intelligence would easily understand. I didn't call anything a conspriracy. I just pointed out that you're statement is accusing Nikon and Sony of being conspiratorial.
Your statement.."of which it is demonstrably not"...contradicts your statement..."I suspect it has everything to do with negotiating price that Nikon has to pay for custom sensors, and little else."...now you're being "incoherent"
i really don't understand this resistance/reluctance to the XQD card. all i have heard over the years is i bent pins, they're too big, they're too slow. well the time for change is possibly upon us. these rather small incremental "speed" changes trying to squeeze more out of the parallel process used in UDMA are grinding to a decaying end*, they are not too small nor are they too big. no more 50 pin array. they will be faster then the previous gen CF and blows away SD/SDHC/SDXC. SDXC has no backward compatibility.
things will move forward.
*now specifying reads rather then writes as the reference. reads are the least energy consumptive portion of the data chain. once you start writing let the real specmansip begin.
I really don't see what's the problem with XQD anyway.
Buying comparable speed CF cards cost roughly the same last time I checked.
And for pros who needs the absolute fastest equipment in their field. I doubt they would actually care. My friend who shoots sport events for a living keeps upgrading his cards every time a new speed rating comes along. Memory cards are much more like a consumables.
Cameras, on the other hand, not so much. The same friend has had two D3 probably from the first or second batch of shipment. And 1M+ (combined) shots, with the shutter module replaced on one later, he is planning to upgrade to D4.
And as he probably won't upgrade his D4 until D5 comes along, I think by integrating XQD makes more appealing to him. UDMA based CF cards are hitting the limits. In another 3~4 years, XQD is probably all we see in flagship models. Why not have it today if we are already at the end of line for fast CF cards?
@ this thread and where its going.
S