All that aside, I received a call from the BLM today as a response to that post and I want to reiterate to everyone that these permits are NONTRANSFERABLE. A link to that particular post was emailed to the BLM and they then looked up my information in the system. It was made aware that a rather large fine is associated with using a permit that is not issued to that particular hiker. I do not want to subject anyone to that fine as a result of my own ignorance. I also want to show my own bit of respect for the BLM in their attempt to preserve this amazing landscape, hence the reason for the permits in the first place. This all may sound very contrived and diplomatic (I ensure you I am writing this on my own account), but it is something that should be brought to the attention of everyone here. By the response I received regarding the permit, it is pretty obvious that The Wave is a very popular destination for many of us landscape photographers.
I really wish I could offer the permit to someone as I'm pretty much 99% sure I will not be using it, however the only advice I can give is to go through the BLM website and enter the permit lottery or try your luck with a "walk-up" permit.
I do apologize for any false hopes and excitement for visiting the area, but I am going to keep the permit and abide by the guidelines established by the BLM.
p.1 #2 · BLM UPDATE : The Wave / Coyote Buttes North
thanks anyway, billy. i've always wondered why the blm is so strict about a simple transfer but rules is rules. i'd actually forgotten about this one but it's always best to mind our manners.
p.1 #3 · BLM UPDATE : The Wave / Coyote Buttes North
I understand the reasoning, but it's too bad the BLM has to take that position. My first visit there, 10 people had gotten permits on-line and only three showed the entire day. I think no-shows are very common, since people get the permit when they can in hopes they can actually go.
p.1 #4 · BLM UPDATE : The Wave / Coyote Buttes North
I understand their point of view - one of the things they ask is emergency info etc. Say you broke your leg in a fall or really hurt yourself and was unconscious...
Moreover - they like to know who is really there in case of an issue.
That aside I have done exactly what you did on this forum several years ago (the people who took the permits will remain unknown ). Never thought it would be against the rules, but that's no excuse. My bad.
I do notice many time several people in the party will apply for the over lapping days and if several get permits they pick the best day (weather etc). Many times they only go one day so the other permits go wasted.
p.1 #5 · BLM UPDATE : The Wave / Coyote Buttes North
Can't understand the logic (or lack thereof) of this silly rule. A body is a body. Sure, in some rare circumstance of emergency they might need to know exactly who is out there even though we all carry ID, right? Sounds like all the other ridiculous rules of the world wanked up by bored lawyers. Disclaimer: I am not encouraging anyone to 'break the law'. Just questioning it in good old american fashion.
p.1 #8 · BLM UPDATE : The Wave / Coyote Buttes North
The original post by myweh was he was not asking any monetary or other consideration whatsoever. He just didn't want it to go to waste. So scalping was not an issue.
What is an issue is some creep found it necessary to email BLM versus sending a PM to myweh.
As far as I'm concerned, whomever did this is a rat, a lowlife, totally unprofessional, and doesn't belong with the good people on this Board.
p.1 #9 · BLM UPDATE : The Wave / Coyote Buttes North
lukeb wrote:
The original post by myweh was he was not asking any monetary or other consideration whatsoever. He just didn't want it to go to waste. So scalping was not an issue.
What is an issue is some creep found it necessary to email BLM versus sending a PM to myweh.
As far as I'm concerned, whomever did this is a rat, a lowlife, totally unprofessional, and doesn't belong with the good people on this Board.
So someone from here emailed the BLM (I am assuming as that is the only way for them to find out).. if so, I agree whole heartedly with you! The OP was GIVING AWAY a once in a lifetime permit.. if this assumption is true, the person who ratted the OP out is someone who weighs 4 bills and cannot hike on a non paved trail - thus they don't belong out there anyways..
p.1 #10 · BLM UPDATE : The Wave / Coyote Buttes North
lukeb wrote:
The original post by myweh was he was not asking any monetary or other consideration whatsoever. He just didn't want it to go to waste. So scalping was not an issue.
What is an issue is some creep found it necessary to email BLM versus sending a PM to myweh.
As far as I'm concerned, whomever did this is a rat, a lowlife, totally unprofessional, and doesn't belong with the good people on this Board.
Hey Luke,
I am with you... what an idiot... we all break rules that we percieve as nonsense... and the government is ripe with stupid rules like this. It's a permit for a certain amount of people, and while I agree that scalping it would be bad, to simply transfer it to someone who has an opportunity to use it... how can that in anyway be bad...
As you said it comes from a really low life person... calling them a knucklehead would be too good... a rat, is a good term for them... if it didn't concern them, and how could it, unless they were someone who wanted the permit but didn't get it.... or perhaps.... someone who had an axe to grind against Derek... and there are a couple of people in here that sad to say can't deal with Derek's straight shooting ways... I would, if I were a betting man, put my money on it being one of those jealous insecure lowlifes who ratted this out...
And if anyone from the BLM is reading this... you ought to change that dumb rule and allow the permits to be transferable...
p.1 #11 · BLM UPDATE : The Wave / Coyote Buttes North
Jim,
Quit beating around the bush, don't hold back, and tale us what you really think
You know I never thought about it this way. The OP did state someone emailed BLM a link to his post. Uhmmm, Also didn't know Derk was the lucky person you got them.
Now, I remember an event a while back with at least one member creating multiple accounts and an exchange with Derk. Oh my, never put that together - insert senior moment!
We will never know who it is and we are just playing around, but its sad to think a viewer of this forum would do such a thing. Personally, I would have first exchanged a note with Billy and give him the chance be informed and withdrawn the offer. No harm no foal, but going the route they did is very passive-aggressive and violates the trust of our community...
Being the INTERNET, the world is watching and the law of numbers means situations like this are bound to happen. Sad, but true
Finally, scalping still could be why the rule. Typically when a rule is made, they don't break it even when the permit holder isn't asking for compensation. To the GOV rules are rules...
As you said it comes from a really low life person... calling them a knucklehead would be too good... a rat, is a good term for them... if it didn't concern them, and how could it, unless they were someone who wanted the permit but didn't get it.... or perhaps.... someone who had an axe to grind against Derek... and there are a couple of people in here that sad to say can't deal with Derek's straight shooting ways... I would, if I were a betting man, put my money on it being one of those jealous insecure lowlifes who ratted this out... ...Show more →
p.1 #12 · BLM UPDATE : The Wave / Coyote Buttes North
Thanks Justin and Jim.
Yes, we all occasionally exceed the speed limit. And, we may have a few too many and get buzzed. And all sorts of other things:
But when someone has the best of intentions, it gives one pause to why a lowlife the reason to go out of their way to cause problems for another FM'er, and possible cost them lots of bucks in BLM fines.
Jim, I think you have the clues as to what happened here. Might have to give you the nickname of Columbo
All I can hope is that whomever did the dirty deed, their shutter has permanent failure, their rear curtain stay locked, and their electronic flash never syncs again - ever
This thread is NOT about the reasons behind the BLM Rules, its about common respect on the FM Boards, and obvious mean spirited people who want to hurt others.
p.1 #13 · BLM UPDATE : The Wave / Coyote Buttes North
Just came back from Coyote Buttes and ran across this thread. I want to share my perspective:
While I agree in a perfect world that transfers should be allowed, I could see why they don't because it does open up for a lot of potential abuse.
Off the top of my head, I can see at least one way to game the system if transfers were allowed. Someone could just ask 10 or 20 or more of their friends (friends who have no interest or plans of going at all) to all enter the lottery and whoever gets it simply transfers their permit to him/her. Now imagine the tens of thousands of people who apply for permits just multiply by tens or hundreds of times because everyone wants to maximize their chances by pooling their resources together to get permits. Also transfers would promote scalpers who potentially make getting permits even more difficult.
As PKuglin mentioned, another reason is safety. I'm not sure what it's like for the online lottery process, but for the walk-ins, they provide a detailed map and offer orientation. A lot of people get lost and never find the Wave. I also see a good number of people on my 2 trips who make the trip underprepared for changing weather conditions. This is an unforgiving, wilderness area. Very little signage. Strenuous hike. Slippery rocks. I can only imagine people who obtain their permit by a transfer from someone else being even less prepared for the trip.
I've been there twice in the past month. Getting a walk-in permit is really not that difficult. The first time, I got one the same day, as there were leftovers that were not given out the previous day. I called the next week and they again had left over permits that were not taken. The second time I went 2 weeks later, I was in the lottery. There were only 16 people for 10 spots. Better than 50%. Your chances increase greatly in the off-season. Your chances are also greater if you're by yourself.
p.1 #14 · BLM UPDATE : The Wave / Coyote Buttes North
lukeb wrote:
The original post by myweh was he was not asking any monetary or other consideration whatsoever. He just didn't want it to go to waste. So scalping was not an issue.
True...but it could become one if the BLM didn't enforce this rule. Say some company with X number of employees has every one of said employees apply for a permit for every day they'd be eligible to do so. Odds are, they'd eventually accumulate a pretty large number of permits. Then, they start offering them as "guaranteed permits to The Wave on the day you want" for $100 each. You just have to look at how ticket scalping works in states where it's legal -- when a popular concert or event first goes on sale, only a lucky few can get through to buy them at face value, because representatives of ticket agencies robo-call and buy up almost all the good available tickets, then offer them to the public at three-five times the actual price (or higher).
Given that, I think it was reprehensible for an FMer to narc out an innocent offer like this, and equally ridiculous for the BLM to go to the trouble of tracking down the photographer's identity so they could, essentially, threaten him into withdrawing the offer. But I can see the reason for the rule in the first place; I just wish the BLM had shown a little flexibility in enforcing it, given the circumstances.
p.1 #15 · BLM UPDATE : The Wave / Coyote Buttes North
Who knows? The BLM employee may or may not have been "tipped off." The BLM employee might have been surfing the web when they should have been working and had to cover for themselves, yet still had to exercise their "authority" by fabricating a story to cover their own butt.
However, more likely, their was a squealer in the group. Or, it might be a casual reader, and not a specific member of the landscape forum.
It's not like this is a clearing house of illegal pass transfers, and the end result - as in a nice image and memory for one person here, should have far outweighed the little peccadillo...
p.1 #16 · BLM UPDATE : The Wave / Coyote Buttes North
I think it's pretty pathetic someone had to go to the BLM about something like this. I could see it if myweh were trying to profit from this, but making sure it doesn't go to waste is not in any way bad in my opinion. Especially since it was being given to a photographer, who as a group are generally pretty conservation minded. After all, we can't shoot landscapes if they're trashed.
p.1 #17 · BLM UPDATE : The Wave / Coyote Buttes North
Hey guys/gals I never really had a permit at all. I figured I would fabricate the BLM story so I could back out of the deal and keep it for myself (sarcasm noted)
But really, all kidding aside (I really do have a permit for 2 people) I'm not overly disappointed in the person for notifying the BLM, however it was quite the surprise phone call. I understand the reasons behind the rule, but like others have said, some flexibility would be nice from time to time.
One thing I could do is call up the BLM and let them know that the permit will not be used, and maybe they could offer up 2 more walk up permits for that day. But who knows. Now that I'm keeping the permit, maybe I will get a wild hair and pull a last minute trip out there. The date doesn't necessarily conflict with my other trip, it was more about keeping the wallet in check .
I'm glad there is good conversation around this topic, but I just want people to know that I have no hard feelings towards whoever passed along the word. But it would have been nice to give someone else the opportunity to go.
p.1 #18 · BLM UPDATE : The Wave / Coyote Buttes North
You do know you can change the dates of the permits to one that works for you? At least that is what I was able to do in 2008 due to weather conditions... Could not drive down the road to the parking area trailhead that year i was scheduled to go...
p.1 #19 · BLM UPDATE : The Wave / Coyote Buttes North
You know, I find the knee-jerk "whoever ratted this out is scum" posts to be over the top, distasteful and frankly reflect more negatively on those making them than whomever sent the link to the BLM (assuming someone did).
The person who did might have been:
- Not a member of the forums, so they couldn't send a PM. Don't bother saying they should join, many people don't like expanding their online presence. Heck, this site was compromised just a few days ago - if I wasn't already a member who had a lot of valuable experiences here already I'd think twice before giving a site that got a moderator account hijacked my email.
- Not comfortable directly communicating with someone they don't know. Not everyone is as bold as the rest of us here.
- Someone only partly familiar with the permit process who felt the BLM would be better able to explain the options available for the permit holder.
- Any number of other reasons.
Being a functional and positive member of a community means having empathy. Empathy means be able to put yourself in another person's shoes for a moment and trying to understand what they might be experiencing. Jumping to conclusions about others' motivations based purely on your reference frame and responding belligerently without thinking it through is not behavior that improves a community.
Think before you post. "Moderate" what you say, especially if your title is "moderator".
Ken
P.S. On the issue of the BLM policy itself, I've been to the Wave, visited a lot of remote areas, and lived next to a number of permitted wilderness areas. I give full and complete lee-way to the BLM, USFS, and NPS on their permit rules. Every place I've been that permitting has been implemented, no matter how draconian, it has been a sound response to a real problem and greatly improved the experience. In general I've found that most people who complain about permits have never visited the site just prior to permits being implemented - they don't understand how negative the experience was without the permits. Typically they've never been before, or they were last there in 1950.
). Never thought it would be against the rules, but that's no excuse. My bad.
a rat, is a good term for them... if it didn't concern them, and how could it, unless they were someone who wanted the permit but didn't get it.... or perhaps.... someone who had an axe to grind against Derek... and there are a couple of people in here that sad to say can't deal with Derek's straight shooting ways... I would, if I were a betting man, put my money on it being one of those jealous insecure lowlifes who ratted this out... 
